Do you think Linecracker (or overkill) deserves a nerf?

There's a simple 2-turn combo in wild that gets you 2.5k armor.

1) You have in your hand the following: Thaurissan, Linecracker, 2x Bees and 2x Earthen Scales (1 will do too).

2) Play Thaurissan

3) Next turn gain 2563 or 1281 armor by playing Bees into your Linecracker twice followed by Earthen Scales

Knowing blizzard it wouldn't be a surprise this combo would go under their radar as they have already stated that bees works with overkill on own board.

So do they nerf:

A) Before the launch

B) In week or two which would be fair

C) In blizzard way in 2 months

D) Never at all

First I was on the board that they have to nerf it but I quess this is also a OTK even though it's in my opinion fairly easy to pull off against any slower decks. Druid also has quite good survival tools in Wild so they might survive the aggro in good enough percent until they draw the combo.

The deck would even be immune to fatigue with jade idol if some hard control decks would try to outlast it.

Perhaps they will change Overkill to proc on killing enemy minions only.

Haven't been playing wild too frequently, but I do dip in every so often. The feeling I'm getting is that this combo potentially counters the aggro side of the meta, and stuff like big priest and control decks (if they don't somehow start rolling too quickly, like barnes on 4\3). 

Problem is, if this gets too popular - you can counter it with equally boring combo decks like some of the Mecha'thun decks and the Paladin Death Knight OTK (though this is probably harder to pull off compared to Mecha'thun). Some Mecha'thun decks in particular, like the warlock variant, could counter both this armor deck and aggro decks as well - which may result in a sudden surge in popularity.

All in all, I'm not very worried about this specific combo, since there are ways around it. It may just be the thing that really shakes the wild meta this time around, we will have to wait and see. Besides, who knows - we still haven't seen like 95% of the cards or something like that - maybe there are more ridiculous combos out there...

While that combo certainly looks game winning I'm not sure it's an immediate problem.

Look at old combo druid for instance. That deck requires 5 cards in hand (Azalina Soulthief, Kun the Forgotten King, King Togwaggle, Aviana and now, after the nerf, one Innervate). That combo is also game winning and far easier to pull off as it doesn't require a Thaurissan tick. It doesn't even always require an Innervate as The Coin will also do. And this combo druid right now sees little to no competitive play.

So I personally don't think that another combo druid deck will be a problem right off the bat. And definitely doesn't warrant a pre-emptive nerf. Only time will tell, though.

Turn 10 6 card combo.. In wild it's a none issue.. Combo decks aren't really viable in wild. 

Nobody cares about wild, so it will never be nerfed.

It's still a turn-10 pseudo-TTK, with tons of cards involved.

Mecha'thun is much more inevitable, and with much less setup.

with the 1 Emperor Thaurissan proc you can easily give +4 to your Linecrackers base attack with 2 Abusive Sergeant, for the total amount of 4611 armour at the end of the process :DD

Cool as the combo sounds, doubt it'd be nerfed as it's just a lot of armour. Unless paired with an actual win condition it'll likely either lose to the counters (mecha'thun and pally DK) or end in a tie at the turn limit (assuming your opponent doesn't concede)

Btw, it is just a choice to define overkill binding it simply to "during your own turn". Tbh, it doesn't even make sense in a non-synchronic game. To me, it sounds like the classic case of a flaw/bug turned into a "feature".

They could simply restrict it to "when the minion actively attacks", and the issue is fixed with no direct nerf necessary.

I think overkill should only trigger when you specifically choose to attack with a minion. 

At the very least let's wait until the new set is released before brandishing our pitchforks? The combo doesn't even seem OP, as others have pointed out, for that amount of setup most decks just flat out win the game, but even if this turns out to be the most broken deck in wild evar, we can cross that bridge when we get there.

I always assumed that Overkill only triggered whenever the Overkill minion made an attack, which feels much more intuitive, imo. The "during your own turn"-thing doesn't feel right. I think that they should change it to either work as my first assumption, stated earlier, or keep the current functionality of triggering even when defending but still remove the "during your turn" requirement.

I'm not even arguing for balance's sake btw, just for a more intuitive and consistent game mechanic.

1) It's a Wild only combo
2) Because it's Wild, you're most likely going to be dead before you can assemble all that shit.
3) Shit like this is why Wild is a format. It's not supposed to be some bastion of fairness and balance.

umm Linecracker and bees is a OTK by itself in standard requiring only 2 cards (10 mana) and the Linecracker to simply survive one turn and go face.... I didn’t think Overkill worked unless you attacked with that’s minion though.

Starts with 5 attack, 1st bee 10 attack, 2nd bee 20 attack, 3rd bee 40 attack, last bee 80 attack. Now go face

edit: sorry I just realized it’s more of a 2 turn kill since you need another turn to go face. Still your opponent will need to keep any removal/silence they have just fo Linecracker.

Quote From dib

I always assumed that Overkill only triggered whenever the Overkill minion made an attack, which feels much more intuitive, imo. The "during your own turn"-thing doesn't feel right. I think that they should change it to either work as my first assumption, stated earlier, or keep the current functionality of triggering even when defending but still remove the "during your turn" requirement.

I'm not even arguing for balance's sake btw, just for a more intuitive and consistent game mechanic.

I agree with you (and was downvoted to hell on reddit for suggesting the same thing).  It feels weird to me that Overkill can be triggered without even attacking. 

Seems like classic bilzz-code. Overkill should trigger when a minion attacks something else. It's lazy AF to code it as a "your turn" mechanic rather than a "when attacking" mechanic. Fix the way it's coded and move on. 

The combo seems quite clunky and slow: aggro decks will probably put you so much pressure before you would be able to pull it. Considering its a Wild-only combo and the stuff that go around there I don't think it will be problematic.

If it will be ever be abused to the point of becoming a meta deck, then maybe Team 5 should address it in some way (and it would be nice if such option may come faster than the one used to fix Naga Sea Witch)

I had the same thoughts. This rule is probably based on some basic hearthstone coding. On your turn, your minions are on „attack mode“ and trigger their effect when dealing damage; no matter how.

Same applies to your hero for instance. When you have a weapon equipped and a minion somehow (Missdirection mostly) attacks your hero on your own turn, it gets damaged by your weapon.

Very confusing stuff ... I

I think it's a meme and as such until we see how viable that meme is (and given the power levels of aggro at the moment, might not be very viable at all) we shouldn't worry too much about it. It requires all cards in the combo to work.

In wild particularly this concept loses pretty ard to even shaman and odd paladin alone, let alone the many other hyper aggressive decks.

When I first saw this I thought "That shouldn't exist at all," and I still think that, but now I'm not concerned about it ruining the meta, just catching me off guard the 1-2 times it can even happen in the first month of SoU coming out.

Quote From sicknantos

I think it's a meme and as such until we see how viable that meme is (and given the power levels of aggro at the moment, might not be very viable at all) we shouldn't worry too much about it. It requires all cards in the combo to work.

In wild particularly this concept loses pretty ard to even shaman and odd paladin alone, let alone the many other hyper aggressive decks.

When I first saw this I thought "That shouldn't exist at all," and I still think that, but now I'm not concerned about it ruining the meta, just catching me off guard the 1-2 times it can even happen in the first month of SoU coming out.

On the flip side, Druid has a lot of ways to gain a crazy amount of armor in Wild.  This is both a 'win more' condition and also an 'always win in fatigue' condition.  They've allowed two turn "win now or else you lose the game to your opponent's combo" things to exist in Wild and totally dodge nerfs, so probably this will too, even though it's really unfair and should be nerfed.

Honestly I don't think, that this would a problem. Just like other people, I also think it's not that rewarding enough in comparison to other well-known win-conditions (Mecha'thun, King Togwaggle + Hakkar, the Soulflayer/Azalina Soulthief). It might sound good on paper, but the main problem imho is drawing the aforementioned combo pieces on time. In normal Kun decks you can draw 3 cards thanks to Juicy Psychmelon, while in the aforementioned Armour Druid you only draw 1 (Linecracker). You don't have any reliable ways to fetch the Emperor, nor the other cheap spells. And let's not forget, that this combo does have a big counter - Skulking Geist.

That said, I agree with many people on this site, that Overkill might need a small nerf. Not because of this "broken" interaction, but because of logic issues:

Quote From dib

I always assumed that Overkill only triggered whenever the Overkill minion made an attack, which feels much more intuitive, imo. The "during your own turn"-thing doesn't feel right. I think that they should change it to either work as my first assumption, stated earlier, or keep the current functionality of triggering even when defending but still remove the "during your turn" requirement.

I'm not even arguing for balance's sake btw, just for a more intuitive and consistent game mechanic.

Quote From RavenSunHS

Btw, it is just a choice to define overkill binding it simply to "during your own turn". Tbh, it doesn't even make sense in a non-synchronic game. To me, it sounds like the classic case of a flaw/bug turned into a "feature".

They could simply restrict it to "when the minion actively attacks", and the issue is fixed with no direct nerf necessary.

Overkill is coded to work "on your turn" rather than "when your minion attacks" because the keyword also exists on spells, if you ask me. Otherwise they'd need a separate wording for overkill spells and overkill minions. It's an imperfect solution, but it's not entirely arbitrary.

Card isn't even released yet ; time to call for Nerfs

I'm not even sure the Overkill Mechanic works this way ...

• If an area of effect card with Overkill destroys multiple characters at the same time, the Overkill effect will trigger for each character killed.
•  
• Cards can only activate their Overkill effects on the controlling player's turn.
•  
• Overkill effects on minions can trigger regardless of if the attacking minion survives or not.^[4][5] For example, if a [Hearthstone Card (Sightless Ranger) Not Found] attacks and kills [Hearthstone Card (Huffer) Not Found], the Ranger dies but its Overkill triggers, summoning two Bats.
•  
• Overkill effects can trigger by dealing excess damage to a hero. Ordinarily the effect is cosmetic, since one player has just won the game (so, for example, you might see a Devilsaur get summoned just as the hero dies). However, in principle, this could have an effect on the outcome — for example, if an Overkill effect destroyed the other hero as well, resulting in a tie game.

So i think it will not work - and i also think i tested something like this with Ticket Scalper - if my opponent is attacking my Scalper the Overkill does not trigger if i remember correctly as it should be so i'm not exactly sure if the mentioned Bees into Linecracker would work ... sure it is your turn but i guess the minion with overkill has to attack and not be attacked

Quote From sinti

Quote From FieselFitz

I'm not even sure the Overkill Mechanic works this way ...

 

• If an area of effect card with Overkill destroys multiple characters at the same time, the Overkill effect will trigger for each character killed.
•  
• Cards can only activate their Overkill effects on the controlling player's turn.
•  
• Overkill effects on minions can trigger regardless of if the attacking minion survives or not.^[4][5] For example, if a Sightless Ranger attacks and kills Huffer, the Ranger dies but its Overkill triggers, summoning two Bats.
•  
• Overkill effects can trigger by dealing excess damage to a hero. Ordinarily the effect is cosmetic, since one player has just won the game (so, for example, you might see a Devilsaur get summoned just as the hero dies). However, in principle, this could have an effect on the outcome — for example, if an Overkill effect destroyed the other hero as well, resulting in a tie game.

So i think it will not work - and i also think i tested something like this with Ticket Scalper - if my opponent is attacking my Scalper the Overkill does not trigger if i remember correctly as it should be so i'm not exactly sure if the mentioned Bees into Linecracker would work ... sure it is your turn but i guess the minion with overkill has to attack and not be attacked

Peter Whalen confirmed that it will work as ppl expect, so yeah ...

Also for the purposes of other combos, it is good to know that the bees will take up board space, so if you target Ironhide Direhorn, you will only get two 5/5s on an empty board since 4 bees are taking up the board space in the moment of the generation.

The Bees don't spawn and attack one by one? That's a shame.

The question is: has anyone actually triggered overkill like that before?

Everyone seems so confident...

Until Bees, are there any way to force any other minion to attack one of your minions during your turn?

I may miss something but I can't think of a way to do it, wild or standard.

Quote From bananaMurloc

The question is: has anyone actually triggered overkill like that before?

Everyone seems so confident...

Until Bees, are there any way to force any other minion to attack one of your minions during your turn?

I may miss something but I can't think of a way to do it, wild or standard.

Misdirection, Mosh'Ogg Announcer, Mass Hysteria, Unseen Saboteur into The Beast Within or Duel!

Quote From bananaMurloc

The question is: has anyone actually triggered overkill like that before?

Everyone seems so confident...

Until Bees, are there any way to force any other minion to attack one of your minions during your turn?

I may miss something but I can't think of a way to do it, wild or standard.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that blizzard confirmed that's how it works...

There are plenty of combos that actually kill you in wild as opposed to just gaining a large amount of armor and they aren't nerfed. Why would this combo, which technically doesn't save you against Mecha'Thun or Uther OTKs be nerfed?

Plus, my Ice Cream Shaman laughs at this combo, just saying ;)

Quote From ThatFinn

There's a simple 2-turn combo in wild that gets you 2.5k armor.

1) You have in your hand the following: Thaurissan, Linecracker, 2x Bees and 2x Earthen Scales (1 will do too).

2) Play Thaurissan

3) Next turn gain 2563 or 1281 armor by playing Bees into your Linecracker twice followed by Earthen Scales

Knowing blizzard it wouldn't be a surprise this combo would go under their radar as they have already stated that bees works with overkill on own board.

So do they nerf:

A) Before the launch

B) In week or two which would be fair

C) In blizzard way in 2 months

D) Never at all

First I was on the board that they have to nerf it but I quess this is also a OTK even though it's in my opinion fairly easy to pull off against any slower decks. Druid also has quite good survival tools in Wild so they might survive the aggro in good enough percent until they draw the combo.

The deck would even be immune to fatigue with jade idol if some hard control decks would try to outlast it.

A 6 card combo that doesn't outright win you the game? Sounds like garbage. For something that requires that much setup it better be an outright TTK, not something that can still potentially get beat. Even if chipping off 1000 or 2000 armor is impossible, your deck is basically 100% to lose to mechathun since a fatigue win condition doesn't work against mechathun. And speaking of jade idol you also lose to jade druid since they dont fatigue and again, you don't have a win condition (that jacked up linecracker will not get a chance to attack 90% of the time).

lol, no... how many games have u lost to a Linecracker? Even if this slow T10 combo makes it into the meta, blizzard will not just nerf it, unless the get some data about the games lost/ won due to such a combo

Hey guys, sorry for posting this in this thread but how do i create a thread trough mobile?

Quote From kaladin

Quote From sicknantos

I think it's a meme and as such until we see how viable that meme is (and given the power levels of aggro at the moment, might not be very viable at all) we shouldn't worry too much about it. It requires all cards in the combo to work.

In wild particularly this concept loses pretty ard to even shaman and odd paladin alone, let alone the many other hyper aggressive decks.

When I first saw this I thought "That shouldn't exist at all," and I still think that, but now I'm not concerned about it ruining the meta, just catching me off guard the 1-2 times it can even happen in the first month of SoU coming out.

On the flip side, Druid has a lot of ways to gain a crazy amount of armor in Wild.  This is both a 'win more' condition and also an 'always win in fatigue' condition.  They've allowed two turn "win now or else you lose the game to your opponent's combo" things to exist in Wild and totally dodge nerfs, so probably this will too, even though it's really unfair and should be nerfed.

I totally agree. I think regardless of its impact, this shouldn't get a free pass. Blizzard is still allowing things like this because "well it's unlikely" or "there are counters" as if that justifies bad interactions like this on

The win condition is "I can never die because even 20 turns of attacking with a full board won't kill be and Jade Idol keeps me from fatigue so you'll die from fatigue eventually"

Quote From kaladin

Quote From sicknantos

I think it's a meme and as such until we see how viable that meme is (and given the power levels of aggro at the moment, might not be very viable at all) we shouldn't worry too much about it. It requires all cards in the combo to work.

In wild particularly this concept loses pretty ard to even shaman and odd paladin alone, let alone the many other hyper aggressive decks.

When I first saw this I thought "That shouldn't exist at all," and I still think that, but now I'm not concerned about it ruining the meta, just catching me off guard the 1-2 times it can even happen in the first month of SoU coming out.

On the flip side, Druid has a lot of ways to gain a crazy amount of armor in Wild.  This is both a 'win more' condition and also an 'always win in fatigue' condition.  They've allowed two turn "win now or else you lose the game to your opponent's combo" things to exist in Wild and totally dodge nerfs, so probably this will too, even though it's really unfair and should be nerfed.

Believe it or not combos and otks are just as much of a valid fair strategy as anything else. If you dedicate your entire deck to a particular strategy then you need a win condition. Draw/cycling and stall is not a win condition, combos can be. I see absolutely no reason why playstyles such as control or midrange are owed any special justification for their existence merely because parts of the playerbase have a glaring bias towards that form of gameplay.

Learn this lesson HS community; just because you don't like something doesn't mean it is unfair.