What is the Alterac Valley Meta going to be?

There's a lot of disruption/removal so spending all your mana on 1 huge minion seems like it still won't be very good in this meta.

There's a lot of new control cards so it looks like aggro may not be as good this expansion

This makes me think the meta will be Control, Tempo, Midrange, and just slowly bursting down your opponent while you stall them with control cards.

Control may still be too slow though.

Shadow Priest, Burst down freeze Shaman decks, Quest mage, tempo rogues. Any decks that can kill by turn 6 I think will be meta if not you will just lose to the control.

Depends on the nerfs. Based on tweet from Iksar there is a chance Blizzard will axe the quests (*fingers crossed for that)

https://twitter.com/IksarHS/status/1460459873187950595/photo/1

Many ppl are worried that these new cards cannot compete : ( 

Quote From Live4vrRdieTryn

Many ppl are worried that these new cards cannot compete : ( 

I don't know why. There's a ton of good new cards in this set. Aside from maybe Mage and Druid cards

It’s going to remain the same. Aggro and Combo will remain supreme while control/midrange are left to eat shit. Aggro will still be able to race down control decks because the new tools they are given cost too much and they will still have 0 game against combo decks and questlines.

I would love to see an overhaul of all cards. Just look at the numbers and buff the cards that suck and nerf the ones that are perennial winners. Why the hell not? Stir up the pot already, Blizzard.

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Many ppl are worried that these new cards cannot compete : ( 

I don't know why. There's a ton of good new cards in this set. Aside from maybe Mage and Druid cards

The worry is that a lot of the archetypes being pushed in Alterac Valley are slower, more value-oriented archetypes (Big Spell Mage, Armor Warrior, Deathrattle Priest, etc.) and that none of those will be able to complete with Questline Warrior, Warlock, and Mage decks that very consistently complete their quests. Slower decks get burned out by the infinite combo decks and trampled on by the aggression of the pirates.

It's true that those archetypes didn't get much support with this latest expansion, but they may be so powerful already that they'll outclass the new archetypes anyway.

There hasn't been a expansion where some old decks did not survive (other than rotations). Besides, Dean has made clear they are willing to nuke cards from UiS in they have to. I do think it is good some decks do survive for F2P players and those who do not pre-order.

I've run into no older decks so far, so it's still hard to gauge how well they hold up against the new stuff.

Nice to see people experimenting, though! I've seen several creative attempts that are not on any website's "best decks for new expansion because we magically know how things are going to be" lists.

Freeze Shaman worked better than I expected against Quest Mage and Quest Hunter. A bit of armor can be enough to stay out of lethal range and you can summon a large enough board that the opponent cannot afford to send all their damage face. When they get their quest reward, you don't need to trade into it if you can keep freezing it until the end of the game.

There is still the question what Quest Warlock will do to the meta once it settles, but if that deck is oppressive I expect it to get nerfed again.

Control, control, control, combo, combo, quest, control, control...

Humongous Owl Warlock looks like a problem. It just cycles through the deck so fast while having such good removal and healing options that allow it to stall the game. I played it yesterday and I was able to stave off some Face Hunters and Token Druids, and that's without havingDreadlich Tamsin in my deck. Though it seems like midrange decks that can continually pressure it will be its weakness, since I had a hard time beating Quest Warriors and the new Elemental Shamans. Still, expect a nerf to Humongous Owl soon (maybe its deathrattle only hits minions) because the consistency of this deck will just kill any other slower strategies. 

Speaking of killing slower strategies, I'm still worried about the questlines...I'm pretty sure Questline Handlock will rise to top tier again, all you have to do is insert Dreadlich Tamsin in that deck and it'll still perform the same, possibly even better. 

Overall, I had a fun first day with the new expansion. I played some Deathrattle Big Priest with the questline, which kinda sucks especially with the Owl OTK around, and Anacondra Druid with Wildheart Guff, which also sucked. I've yet to try Freeze Shaman, just waiting for the meta to settle before I craft the needed legendaries for it. 

Quote From Tetsuo

Humongous Owl Warlock looks like a problem. It just cycles through the deck so fast while having such good removal and healing options that allow it to stall the game. I played it yesterday and I was able to stave off some Face Hunters and Token Druids, and that's without havingDreadlich Tamsin in my deck. Though it seems like midrange decks that can continually pressure it will be its weakness, since I had a hard time beating Quest Warriors and the new Elemental Shamans. Still, expect a nerf to Humongous Owl soon (maybe its deathrattle only hits minions) because the consistency of this deck will just kill any other slower strategies. 

That's a hard sell, because unlike quest fatiguelock, owlock can actually be disrupted by something like Mutanus. Either take down the owl, or Tamsin Roame, both can do quite severe damage to the deck's consistency. Sometimes even just vipering the weapon goes a long way (interesting enough, some limited data in hsreplay seems to suggest a high played win rate for viper).

A bigger problem is actually Dreadlich Tamsin itself. Draw 3, and sometimes fill the board with 3/3s for 6 mana? Like considering the effects of comparable heros like tavish, this is extraordinary. There's argument right now to simply just stick tamsin in every warlock deck possible, even quest handlock and fatiguelock itself, despite the anti-synergy. Im not asking for this deck or this specific hero to be nerfed, just a perspective. Because Ive a harder time trying to sustain pressure against warlock with so many random 3/3s coming out of nowhere.

Overall, I am having fun with this expansion start. Admitably I can see some problems in the making (dreadlich tamsin, the sheer amount of freezes in shaman, etc.), but its a very far cry from the stormwind expansion, which is a good thing.

I've certainly seen fewer Questline Warlock decks than before launch, but I've still seen a lot (particularly after Day 1). And Humongous Owl Warlock is a problem for basically the same reason Questline Warlock is a problem - Warlock has way too much card draw, making the deck super consistent and way too good against slower, value-oriented decks. Maybe one overtakes the other, or maybe both continue to see play - I doubt it makes much of a difference for the metagame, because both warp it in much the same way.

Not saying it should be nerfed just yet, but one potential nerf to the Owl deck that I actually think would just make a ton of sense would be to remove the Shadow school from Tamsin's Phylactery. A lich's phylactery is magical, but it's still a physical object - lots of other spells that represent mystical items have no spell school (e.g. Skull of Gul'dan, Moontouched Amulet, Deck of Lunacy). There are certainly counterexamples (Soul Mirror, Amulet of Undying, The Dark Portal), so I guess Blizzard likes to do this in part for flavor and in part for balance. If the deck is getting out of hand, this seems like an easy tweak that could be made to remove the possibility of a free copy from Tamsin Roame, which would make the deck easier to disrupt.

I havent played a ton of games but I have actually only seen old decks (mainly Quest Mage, Pirate Warrior and Aggro Druid). Must just be the MMR bracket I'm in or bad luck queueing into people just worried about ranking up. 

Neo burgle Rogue has actually surprised me in it's efficiency and fun factor. Two 3/3's on turn two? Sign me up!

Also has made Scabbs and Maestra playable... Which is amazing in it's own right.

Honestly, I think it is too early to decide whether or not OTK Warlock is an issue. It absolutely crumples to Libram Paladin and Quest Mage, and I imagine once people start playing Face Hunter it will suffer even more. Currently I feel like it is only good against grindy decks who win through attrition. 

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Honestly, I think it is too early to decide whether or not OTK Warlock is an issue. It absolutely crumples to Libram Paladin and Quest Mage, and I imagine once people start playing Face Hunter it will suffer even more. Currently I feel like it is only good against grindy decks who win through attrition. 

This is exactly the kind of argument I and many others were making about Questline Warlock at the start of United in Stormwind, and we all know where that went. That's not to say the Owl OTK will need some kind of nerfs, per se, but it's clear Warlock is a problem. When it was just Questline Warlock, you could at least argue the deck was consistent because it always started with its win condition (i.e. the quest) in hand. But the success of Owl OTK makes it clear that Warlock is just way too good at consistently and rapidly drawing their whole deck.

It reminds me a bit of that brief time when Gonk OTK and Maly OTK Druids were both surprisingly effective decks because they shared a fairly OP shell of draw and defensive tools.

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Honestly, I think it is too early to decide whether or not OTK Warlock is an issue. It absolutely crumples to Libram Paladin and Quest Mage, and I imagine once people start playing Face Hunter it will suffer even more. Currently I feel like it is only good against grindy decks who win through attrition. 

This is exactly the kind of argument I and many others were making about Questline Warlock at the start of United in Stormwind, and we all know where that went. That's not to say the Owl OTK will need some kind of nerfs, per se, but it's clear Warlock is a problem. When it was just Questline Warlock, you could at least argue the deck was consistent because it always started with its win condition (i.e. the quest) in hand. But the success of Owl OTK makes it clear that Warlock is just way too good at consistently and rapidly drawing their whole deck.

It reminds me a bit of that brief time when Gonk OTK and Maly OTK Druids were both surprisingly effective decks because they shared a fairly OP shell of draw and defensive tools.

It's because Warlock has too much healing. I've been saying this since Barrens.

One of the main points of Warlock is that it uses Health as a resource. That's all well and good, and makes for interesting decisions ... until you give the class so much healing that there are no more decisions. Just go ahead and spend that Health willy-nilly in full confidence that you'll have no trouble getting it back.

When you're trying to draw through your entire deck, life tapping and cards like Backfire are not the least bit scary because you are guaranteed to get 12 points of healing from quilboars and two 1-mana 6/6 taunts, not to mention all the lifesteal removal you'll draw along the way, some of which may be doubled by Tamsin.

Warlock may not technically have more healing than Priest, but it definitely has far more efficient healing, and a lot of it.

Quote From FortyDust

It's because Warlock has too much healing. I've been saying this since Barrens.

One of the main points of Warlock is that it uses Health as a resource. That's all well and good, and makes for interesting decisions ... until you give the class so much healing that there are no more decisions. Just go ahead and spend that Health willy-nilly in full confidence that you'll have no trouble getting it back.

When you're trying to draw through your entire deck, life tapping and cards like Backfire are not the least bit scary because you are guaranteed to get 12 points of healing from quilboars and two 1-mana 6/6 taunts, not to mention all the lifesteal removal you'll draw along the way, some of which may be doubled by Tamsin.

Warlock may not technically have more healing than Priest, but it definitely has far more efficient healing, and a lot of it.

The problems go hand-in-hand, but I do think the latest "OwlTK" Warlock decks shows that card draw is the biggest issue. It's true that decks that care about self-harm (i.e. Questline Handlock) use Barrens Scavenger and Blood Shard Bristleback to recover, but they're only enabled by drawing your whole deck really fast. Meanwhile the "OwlTK" Warlock doesn't use either of those cards to stabalize, instead getting by with cheap AOE like Grimoire of Sacrifice along with extra card draw like Bloodmage Thalnos and the Tour Guide/Manafeeder Panthara combo.

Man, I'm struggling to stay motivated with this game... I'm still jamming new archetypes like Big DH, Beast Druid and Frost Shaman... but today I went 0-7 against exclusively OwlTK Warlock and Libram Paladin.   

Against Warlock, it didn't seem to matter what I did at any stage in the game, the outcome was inevitable.  Whether I had a board full of 7/9 and 8/8 demons or I cast Glide to reduce his hand to 4 cards.  He always had a way to clear my threats and heal himself up. So frustrating. 

Quote From meisterz39

Quote From FortyDust

It's because Warlock has too much healing. I've been saying this since Barrens.

One of the main points of Warlock is that it uses Health as a resource. That's all well and good, and makes for interesting decisions ... until you give the class so much healing that there are no more decisions. Just go ahead and spend that Health willy-nilly in full confidence that you'll have no trouble getting it back.

When you're trying to draw through your entire deck, life tapping and cards like Backfire are not the least bit scary because you are guaranteed to get 12 points of healing from quilboars and two 1-mana 6/6 taunts, not to mention all the lifesteal removal you'll draw along the way, some of which may be doubled by Tamsin.

Warlock may not technically have more healing than Priest, but it definitely has far more efficient healing, and a lot of it.

The problems go hand-in-hand, but I do think the latest "OwlTK" Warlock decks shows that card draw is the biggest issue. It's true that decks that care about self-harm (i.e. Questline Handlock) use Barrens Scavenger and Blood Shard Bristleback to recover, but they're only enabled by drawing your whole deck really fast. Meanwhile the "OwlTK" Warlock doesn't use either of those cards to stabalize, instead getting by with cheap AOE like Grimoire of Sacrifice along with extra card draw like Bloodmage Thalnos and the Tour Guide/Manafeeder Panthara combo.

I see what you're saying, but accelerated card draw is supposed to be part of the Warlock class identity. It wouldn't make sense to take that away from them. Healing, on the other hand, should be present but minimal.

OwlTK does make use of the worst offender, Touch of the Nathrezim, along with Drain Soul, exacerbated by Mo'arg Artificer and Tamsin Roame (in a pinch). So the amount of healing generated by even OwlTK is way too much.

Quote From FortyDust

Quote From meisterz39

Quote From FortyDust

It's because Warlock has too much healing. I've been saying this since Barrens.

One of the main points of Warlock is that it uses Health as a resource. That's all well and good, and makes for interesting decisions ... until you give the class so much healing that there are no more decisions. Just go ahead and spend that Health willy-nilly in full confidence that you'll have no trouble getting it back.

When you're trying to draw through your entire deck, life tapping and cards like Backfire are not the least bit scary because you are guaranteed to get 12 points of healing from quilboars and two 1-mana 6/6 taunts, not to mention all the lifesteal removal you'll draw along the way, some of which may be doubled by Tamsin.

Warlock may not technically have more healing than Priest, but it definitely has far more efficient healing, and a lot of it.

The problems go hand-in-hand, but I do think the latest "OwlTK" Warlock decks shows that card draw is the biggest issue. It's true that decks that care about self-harm (i.e. Questline Handlock) use Barrens Scavenger and Blood Shard Bristleback to recover, but they're only enabled by drawing your whole deck really fast. Meanwhile the "OwlTK" Warlock doesn't use either of those cards to stabalize, instead getting by with cheap AOE like Grimoire of Sacrifice along with extra card draw like Bloodmage Thalnos and the Tour Guide/Manafeeder Panthara combo.

I see what you're saying, but accelerated card draw is supposed to be part of the Warlock class identity. It wouldn't make sense to take that away from them. Healing, on the other hand, should be present but minimal.

OwlTK does make use of the worst offender, Touch of the Nathrezim, along with Drain Soul, exacerbated by Mo'arg Artificer and Tamsin Roame (in a pinch). So the amount of healing generated by even OwlTK is way too much.

I agree card draw is their identity. (hell it's built into their hero power) but they have so much also besides that.  In fact I'd argue that the warlock class itself should have almost NO card draw in their class cards simply because their hero power is so central to it. 

For the last year, if not two years, warlock has continually proven to be a problem because of it's core design (hero power, self-damage, and now lifesteal).   I think this is a clear indication the class needs to be reworked from the ground up, similar to how Priest was.  I know we are coming up on another core rotation next year so maybe that will help tone down the class.  But I have to agree.  Warlock has TOO much lifesteal/life gain.  It has TOO much card draw.