Back when Fractured in Alterac Valley released, Hearthstone Game Designer Chadd "Celestalon" Nervig stated that Team 5 would implement changes if Alterac Valley's new cards weren't able to make enough of an impact in the meta due to the oppression of the so called "solitaire" decks from the previous expansions (United in Stormwind above all).
While the situation looked exactly like the one initially described by Celestalon, a few days ago we received the bittersweet news that no balance changes were going to come this week. While it was very likely that this decision was made in order not to mess up players competing in Hearthstone Worlds (which will take place on December 18th and 19th), part of the community was left a bit disappointed, as there are some rather annoying decks swarming ladder right now. Let's be clear: we've seen way worse metas, but this expansion launch could've been better.
However, here we are with yet another plot twist! Celestalon himself has updated his previous statements and announced that we will receive some balance changes. It is possible that said changes will take place next week, before Team 5 goes on their yearly holiday vacation, but we are yet to receive any other information about any upcoming changes.
Quote From Celestalon Yep, here we are. Balance changes will come, as promised. Many of those decks will be getting hit.
For the sake of completion, the tweet you see above was written under a spreadsheet showing the archetypes distribution among all the players participating in the World Championship.
As you can see, there will be an overabundance of OTK decks, with Garrote Rogue, Celestial Alignment Druid, Il'gynoth OTK Demon Hunter and the relatively new Humongous Owl Warlock appearing in almost every line up. These are the only non-combo decks you'll see at Worlds:
- Libram Paladin (2).
- Face Hunter (3).
- Pirate Warrior (2).
Card Buffs Too?
Luckily, nerfs are not our only future as we're also going to be seeing some card buffs coming to Hearthstone in a future patch, so some strategies that didn't pan out quite the way Blizzard wanted should be getting a nice boost. No further details were provided, though Celestalon did talk about why they don't do buffs often.
Quote From Celestalon instead of erring to over-tuning then nerf, under-tune then buff. Instead of taking decks away, it adds decks through a meta. Just a thought. Still love the game. #Hearthstone
It's definitely something we consider. And you will see some buffs soon. In general though, buffs are much more difficult to get the desired result, than nerfs. Let me explain…
With nerfs, we have a good idea of how powerful something is now, and know that it'll go down. That knowledge lets us be much more accurate with the nerf. And if we undershoot, well at least it's better than before. If we overshoot, that deck just stops seeing play entirely.
With buffs, it's trying to increase the power level of something we have very little data on how powerful it is. It's below the margin of seeing play, but by how much? Hard to say.
If we undershoot, it was a waste, nothing happens. If we overshoot, we created a new problem deck.
Buffs absolutely can work out great, and we have a few coming that we hope do work out great. But I hope that at least explains why we tend to do nerfs more often than buffs.
What cards do you think will be nerfed? What cards would you want to see buffed? Let us know your opinions in the comments below!
Comments
I finally got eaten by that Warlock OTK with Humongous Owl. I was actually quite impressed since I had been beating the hell out of Warlock decks that looked like they were trying to combo out with Libram Paladin and my Deathrattle Hunter build... pretty much relying on [Humongous Owl and Darkmoon Tonk. Granted, I may not be seeing as much since I play in Wild mostly, and my standard ranking is always pretty much hovering around Gold 5. But I didn't think it was that pervasive.
Garrote Rogue and Pirate Warrior however, I am beyond sick of seeing those decks. Even after the nerf on Garrote, it is still a pretty dominant deck. The problem is that it is so efficient with Rogue's class characteristic of being able to draw through their deck and play quick cheap spells. Without killing the deck, what needs to be hit is the Field Contact to only trigger for the first Battlecry or Combo card you do or some like that.
OTK Demon Hunter, I can take it or leave it. I've used it and got so bored with it that I cannot even think of a way to kick it in the teeth without nuking it entirely. It will cycle out soon enough in the next 3.5 months anyway, so I'm not in the slightest concerned.
Finally, with Alignment Druid the only thing that I can think of it Aggro beats it usually. It requires a bit of set up and if you are slow on the roll... you're overwhelmed pretty quickly. But that's me.
I hope they buff Magister Dawngrasp into a decent card at least. It's crazy how Dreadlich Tamsin clears the board, draws 3, starts a self-summoning engine and gives you a better hero power for only 6 mana, while you need so much setup for Dawngrasp to achieve much less, like they deliberately made the card awful. If you want to achieve consistency with it, you need to build your deck in a specific way and play all the spells before the hero card, without cheating them out with Iceblood Tower or Clumsy Courier. Even if you manage to setup everything, the best you can do in standard is something like Fire Sale, Arcane Intellect and Ice Barrier, without being allowed to play weaker targeted spells or spell generators like Wand Thief if you're aiming for consistency. Otherwise it's just a random targeting fiesta. There is so much build-around required for Dawngrasp, offering underwhelmingly little to no reward or purpose for trying to do so.
Am I the only one that sees the same problem in both cases?
Nerfs + overshoot = useless = buffs + undershoot.
Nerfs + undershoot = problem = buffs + overshoot.
Wtf? It's like they don't like buffs because they can't powercreep in the future, yet they say it's hard not to powercreep. Well, i guess it's not that hard if you start buffing cards...
Again, i'm getting sick of these people and their "design" decisions.
The difference is that it's much easier to hit the middleground with nerfs than with buffs since they have more data about overpowered than underpowered cards. It's generally also easier to overshoot balance changes and the worst case of "destroying a deck" is still better than "creating a new problem".
I must be missing something about Garrote Rogue. I've never lost to that deck and even after looking at the decklist I have no idea how this could beat anything.
Sure, you are playing aggro. Problem is that too good and fast combo pushes out interesting interactive but slower decks
I will be very pleased if every single deck on that spreadsheet is nerfed into oblivion.
Well, except Y'shaarj shaman coz that's a brand new deck and seems only popular to the Chinese players
It really shouldn't come as surprising that the worlds list work out this way, and honestly its really because of one deck: garrote rogue. One of the most skill testing deck in hearthstone history, and currently one of the best deck out there if you know how to play.
Alignment druid and OTK dhunter are not very good decks, falling easily to tempo decks, and are very much dependent on draw rng much like most OTK decks. I dont deny they are both very annoying to face at times, but the only reason why they are even in tournament lists, or prevalent in high legend is because they counter garrote rogue, being the only two decks capable of disrupting garrote rogue fairly consistently.
So what can be done? Just nerf garrote rogue via either Efficient Octo-bot (who has somehow dodged nerf after nerf for the last two expansions) or Field Contact. Or just remove Garrote itself.
Other nerfs to consider;
- Ive never had a problem with quest warrior, but if we have to do something about this class, just revert the buffs made to the pirates in stormwind, especially to Bloodsail Deckhand.
- Once again Im asking blizz to just nerf the shit out of Lightning Bloom or get rid of it entirely. Seems like druid just need to scam to wins in every expansion. It'll also have a small impact to shaman, but very small, because shaman actually plays for tempo now.
- Irondeep Trogg is one of those cards that counters these non-interactive decks in theory. Unfortunately it also locks most decks out too. A small mana nerf to 2 should change all this.
- Nerfing Runed Mithril Rod will go a long way in affecting all warlock OTKs.
- If we have to, just nerf Celestial Alignment to 8. I dont think its a problem deck, but at the same time I can't see why druid would want to play ramp into big things when they can just alignment, disrupt your opponent's ability to play whilst suffering none of it themselves. Since this is a barrens card, this shit is going to be here for another year, imagine that.
- Set both quest rewards for warlock and dhunter to 7 mana. That should more or less deal with these decks.
As for buffs, Im not sure. Im actually doing decently with most AV decks that I dont think any of it needs a buff. The only deck so far thats 100% trash is big spell mage, but Im not sure I want this to be buffed. Mage has this uncanny ability to scam wins out with random rng and the last thing I need is more of this. Besides, I think if the meta changes, Irondeep Trogg gets nerfed, and we see less OTK decks, big spell mage can succeed, if only in tier 2-3. That's fine with me.
In what universe is doubling the cost of Trogg from 1 -> 2 a "small mana nerf"...? The last cards that went from 1 to 2 (Renew, Gibberling) were **gutted** by that change!
To be pedantic, since 1 is the smallest number before 0 which is nonexistent, I used the word 'small'.
Obviously a 1 mana nerf is impactful, Im not trying to downplay that at all.
have you been facing a lot of garrote rogue??? im a wild player myself so ive spent the majority of this month working on my legend rank in that format but i grinded to diamond (so far) this season in standard since ive been having fun with aggro shaman and i dont think ive seen a single one, only questline rogues.
Should've stated that Im commenting on standard. Far as Im concerned whenever nerfs are mentioned, its nearly never about wild.
Also, Im commenting on the worlds list. As we can see, all but one brought garrote rogue and this has been going on for a while, and having experienced it myself I think I can say definitively it is one of the most skill testing decks, probably in the right hands its just unbeatable without disruption.
If we want to see more interactive decks in tournaments, then we need to address garrote rogue.
Nah, it should always be assumed you are talking about Standard unless you specify Wild.
I know you say this isn't the worst meta, but it feels the worst to me.
Patron warrior took well beyond turn 10+ to complete.
Mysterious challenger was turn 6-7, and then it wasn't necessarily GG, but it was tough.
All the darkest hour warlock BS was turn 7-8.
Now, most games can be absolutely decided by turn 5-6, with turns 7-8 a luxury. I've been killed by a druid on turn 3 (i'm not saying druid is a problem atm). nearly all the old "hall of fame" cards would never see play today. the mana cheating and draw is absolutely off the charts right now. way too many 0- and 1- drops, and way too many low cost minions with premium (or better) stats in addition to several powerful effects.
the game feels very auto-pilot. did your opponent brick? did you brick? great coin toss. almost no decisions to be made.
Pretty sure Celestalon was not talking about Wild or even giving it a lot of thought right now.
What i wanna see buffed is the big spell mage cards And wildlfire, Wildfire should work again liek ti sued to and if change hero power it carries over.
Achievements fixes too?
"and the relatively new Humongous Owl Warlock appearing in almost every line up"
almost every = 3 out of 8
I believe this line was meant to encompass all listed decks in that sentence rather than just relate to the final example, but it's true the 4th deck is the most (expected) odd man out.