How does your theory come in to play for the overwhelming rez priest in wild? Shaman up all you want, Wild is flooded with Rez Priest and I've only been able to consistently beat it with a combo deck that dies to aggro every single time.
You can also play secrets, Aggro Mage, Un'Goro Quest Mage, Togwaggle Druid, Treachery Warlock, Jade/1K Armor Druid, Mill Rogue, Odd Paladin, and yes, shaman.
Galakrond from 7>9 mana, invoke/hero power summons a 1/2 with rush (instead of 2/1)
Other nerfs:
Faceless corrupter 5>6 mana
Parachute Brigand from 2/2 to 2/1
I don't think they will nerf the cost of galakround they cost 7 in other classes, they would probably nerf the invoke cards or the hero power, and definetly the battlecry.. maybe also the double invoke lover..
6 mana for Faceless Corruptor is still too little the card is that much out of line he should cost 7... and it would still be played.
How does your theory come in to play for the overwhelming rez priest in wild? Shaman up all you want, Wild is flooded with Rez Priest and I've only been able to consistently beat it with a combo deck that dies to aggro every single time.
You can also play secrets, Aggro Mage, Un'Goro Quest Mage, Togwaggle Druid, Treachery Warlock, Jade/1K Armor Druid, Mill Rogue, Odd Paladin, and yes, shaman.
I didn't look at all of the cards you linked, only the first few, but I wouldn't say that cards that summon minions for your opponent actually do anything to harm big priest. Adding more bad minions to their pool doesn't stop them. I play a lot of mage and shaman, which are the classes with the most transform abilities, and though I am able to Hex, or Polymorph the first 'big' minion to come onto the scene I am still overwhelmed by lifesteal/taunt minions that kill things when they die.
Aggro doesn't work too much as a counter to big/res priest anymore, they simply have too many ways to clear the board and heal up. With a mid-range list it really comes down to draw, whether or not the priest draws his big minions, and whether or not the midrange player plays a strong enough curve. And with control there has to be tons and tons of removal in addition to tons and tons of damage. Really the only reliable counter to big priest I can think of is an OTK deck, and it has to be able to go through taunts.
Big Priests aren't unbeatable, but they are as annoying as *word*. They are un-fun, triggering, and just all around frustrating. Most of their power comes from the plethora of heals and board clears that priest has access to in wild. Due to there not being a good AOE in the classic set, we get a lot of board clears in expansions, and they have all gathered in wild. I think the best way to nerf res priest would be to rework Eternal Servitude. A simple nerf to the mana cost wouldn't do, you would have to change the ability so that priests can't pick and choose which minion to resummon. All of the cards you mentioned above don't work as reliable counters to big priest simply because they have the ability to choose whether or not to resurrect the minion you tossed into their res pool.
Big Priest is a problem, it isn't any good to deny that, and while I am sure they won't address it in the next patch, I do hope they do something about it later.
The cheapest solution for Blizzard would be to nerf Galakrond himself, because then they wouldn't have to compensate anyone for it. That said, they certainly won't touch its mana cost because of consistency with the other Galakronds, which leaves the effect. I see two possibilities here: make the tokens 1/2 or remove the rush keyword. With Storm's Wrath, Vessina and Bloodlust in mind, things could still get ugly, but then Galakrond Warloc isn't a thing (yet) and they have a few options to buff their tokens, too. On a sidenote, it's incredible how unfair the invoke effects were distributed among the two classes. tl;dr: 50% chance they'll remove rush from the tokens and/or make them 1/2
I am really curious what they will do since I think it's not just a single card or two, it's almost all of them that are problematic, so to get a balanced outcome seems almost impossible. Changing one or two will not have any effect, while changing all of them might kill the class.
But there are probably some statistic tools that can be used here to pinpoint the major pain.
I am really curious what they will do since I think it's not just a single card or two, it's almost all of them that are problematic, so to get a balanced outcome seems almost impossible. Changing one or two will not have any effect, while changing all of them might kill the class.
They don't need to nerf every powerful card. Every class has a bunch of over-tuned cards and that's fine; they are the reason to play those classes after all. They just need to make sure no single archetype has too many working towards the same goal, which is where shaman is right now.
Assuming the changes are significant enough, hitting 2 or 3 will probably bring the number of over-tuned cards in line with what other classes have, which is ultimately the aim.
While i love what Shaman Quest did for the class and what crazy things can you pull off, it was very apparent to me from the day it was introduced that it will eventually become a problem, or at least limit design space. Which is funny, since they nuked some cards in the past for that exact purpose.
Does it need a nerf? Most likely, eventually. But how would you go about it? Could the cost of Hero Power be increased to 3? That would probably be the best option, but as said, unlikely. Should the requirement be tougher, so it comes in play later? Or should it affect only next Battlecry this turn, not all of them? If you can combine the latter two, maybe that would be realistic, tho given how Blizzard works, if they were to do that, they would most likely just did one of the two and then later on added the second, if they deemed it necessary.
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I don't see how changing Heart of Vir'naal from "Your Battlecries trigger twice this turn." to "Your next Battlecry trigger twice this turn" would actually solve the Galakrond Shaman problem. This quest is the best thing that's happened to shaman in a while and it would suck if that's what ends up being nerfed instead of the Invoke cards or Galakrond himself.
What needs to be nerfed in my opinion is Galakrond's Hero Power as well as his Battlecry.
I don't see how changing Heart of Vir'naal from "Your Battlecries trigger twice this turn." to "Your next Battlecry trigger twice this turn" would actually solve the Galakrond Shaman problem. This quest is the best thing that's happened to shaman in a while and it would suck if that's what end up being nerfed instead of the Invoke cards or Galakrond himself.
The quest is just too powerful. Right now we can nerf galakrond, or shudderwock, or corrupt elementalist and get rid of this annoying deck. But later the quest will be used in another broken shaman deck. Sooner or later, we will have to nerf the quest because it is just too good and it will always be too good.
I don't see how changing Heart of Vir'naal from "Your Battlecries trigger twice this turn." to "Your next Battlecry trigger twice this turn" would actually solve the Galakrond Shaman problem. This quest is the best thing that's happened to shaman in a while and it would suck if that's what end up being nerfed instead of the Invoke cards or Galakrond himself.
The quest is just too powerful. Right now we can nerf galakrond, or shudderwock, or corrupt elementalist and get rid of this annoying deck. But later the quest will be used in another broken shaman deck. Sooner or later, we will have to nerf the quest because it is just too good and it will always be too good.
But how is it the problem if the best version of Galakrond Shaman doesn't even run it ?
I don't see how changing Heart of Vir'naal from "Your Battlecries trigger twice this turn." to "Your next Battlecry trigger twice this turn" would actually solve the Galakrond Shaman problem. This quest is the best thing that's happened to shaman in a while and it would suck if that's what end up being nerfed instead of the Invoke cards or Galakrond himself.
The quest is just too powerful. Right now we can nerf galakrond, or shudderwock, or corrupt elementalist and get rid of this annoying deck. But later the quest will be used in another broken shaman deck. Sooner or later, we will have to nerf the quest because it is just too good and it will always be too good.
But how is it the problem if the best version of Galakrond Shaman doesn't even run it ?
I feel like they won't change the quest, but if they do it will be very minor like increasing the requirement from 6 battlecries to 7. I think they really just overtuned Galakrond. Doubling the invocations isn't nearly as bad as doubling Galakrond's battlecry, aside from the fact it can expedite the upgrades. Several 2/1 minions with rush aren't overly oppressive but being able to accelerate your way to a double Galakrond battlecry is, for Shaman at least.
A possible change could be to lower the health of the minions Galakrond's battlecry summons. Currently they scale as 2/2, 4/4, 8/8. I was thinking instead of doubling the health as well they could do 2/2, 4/3, 8/4, which makes it a lot easier to deal with and likely results in the minions being destroyed if they are traded into others.
Maybe 8/4 is a little underwhelming for the final form, perhaps 8/6 or 6/6 would be ok. I haven't tested it of course but apparently neither have the devs so who knows! The real strength of it is supposed to be the rush aspect i think, but if you get 4 8/8 minions there's way less options for clearing the remnants.
Alternatively they could just increase the mana cost to 9 so it's unlikely anyone could use the quest reward with it. I think that reduces the fun factor more though. I expect them to make a less drastic change.
After playing a lot of Galakrond Shaman over the past week, and knowing the type of nerfs that Blizzard is known for, I'm almost 1000000% sure that they will overcompensate and hamper the deck so much that they will then be forced to deal with the flood of other OP styles.
If only there was a way that they could RESEARCH and DEVELOP a good nerf that will not only remove the overwhelming threat the current meta is taking, but still balance out the class so that it isn't unplayable. But hey, we can dream can't we.
i think C will be the best. Standart players won't cry. *cough* I will get 1600 dust and still play with it *cough*
Look everyone! It's the guy who hasn't played Wild in a while! Come, check where Big Priest is on the tier list!
There are a lot of cards that can disrupt Big Priest or Rez Priest in wild. And there's more than the ones I've linked here.
You can also play secrets, Aggro Mage, Un'Goro Quest Mage, Togwaggle Druid, Treachery Warlock, Jade/1K Armor Druid, Mill Rogue, Odd Paladin, and yes, shaman.
I don't think they will nerf the cost of galakround they cost 7 in other classes, they would probably nerf the invoke cards or the hero power, and definetly the battlecry.. maybe also the double invoke lover..
6 mana for Faceless Corruptor is still too little the card is that much out of line he should cost 7... and it would still be played.
is Parachute Brigand broken? I don't think it is.. it's comparable to Happy Ghoul and Happy Ghoul while strong was not nerfed in the end..
I didn't look at all of the cards you linked, only the first few, but I wouldn't say that cards that summon minions for your opponent actually do anything to harm big priest. Adding more bad minions to their pool doesn't stop them. I play a lot of mage and shaman, which are the classes with the most transform abilities, and though I am able to Hex, or Polymorph the first 'big' minion to come onto the scene I am still overwhelmed by lifesteal/taunt minions that kill things when they die.
Aggro doesn't work too much as a counter to big/res priest anymore, they simply have too many ways to clear the board and heal up. With a mid-range list it really comes down to draw, whether or not the priest draws his big minions, and whether or not the midrange player plays a strong enough curve. And with control there has to be tons and tons of removal in addition to tons and tons of damage. Really the only reliable counter to big priest I can think of is an OTK deck, and it has to be able to go through taunts.
Big Priests aren't unbeatable, but they are as annoying as *word*. They are un-fun, triggering, and just all around frustrating. Most of their power comes from the plethora of heals and board clears that priest has access to in wild. Due to there not being a good AOE in the classic set, we get a lot of board clears in expansions, and they have all gathered in wild. I think the best way to nerf res priest would be to rework Eternal Servitude. A simple nerf to the mana cost wouldn't do, you would have to change the ability so that priests can't pick and choose which minion to resummon. All of the cards you mentioned above don't work as reliable counters to big priest simply because they have the ability to choose whether or not to resurrect the minion you tossed into their res pool.
Big Priest is a problem, it isn't any good to deny that, and while I am sure they won't address it in the next patch, I do hope they do something about it later.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
The cheapest solution for Blizzard would be to nerf Galakrond himself, because then they wouldn't have to compensate anyone for it. That said, they certainly won't touch its mana cost because of consistency with the other Galakronds, which leaves the effect. I see two possibilities here: make the tokens 1/2 or remove the rush keyword. With Storm's Wrath, Vessina and Bloodlust in mind, things could still get ugly, but then Galakrond Warloc isn't a thing (yet) and they have a few options to buff their tokens, too. On a sidenote, it's incredible how unfair the invoke effects were distributed among the two classes.
tl;dr: 50% chance they'll remove rush from the tokens and/or make them 1/2
I really like the suggestion to add overload (2?) to Corrupt Elementalist and Dragon's Pack . Would be fitting flavour-wise.
That should do with shaman, removing rush from the invoke effect being top priority.
Concerning Faceless Corruptor I share your thoughts about increasing its cost to 7.
I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com
Dragonmaw Poacher is already banned in arena.
Shaman it's so f@#&ing ridicolous, they should do something quickly.
Dragon's Pack from (5) to (6)
Corrupt Elementalist from "Battlecry: Invoke Galakrond twice." to "Battlecry: Invoke Galakrond twice. Overload: (1)"
Mogu Fleshshaper from "Rush. Costs (1) less for each minion on the battlefield." to "Rush. Costs (1) less for each of your minion on the battlefield."
Faceless Corruptor from 5/4 to 5/2
Heart of Vir'naal from "Your Battlecries trigger twice this turn." to "Your next Battlecry trigger twice this turn"
Easiest solution: shaman's start with 15 health instead of 30. That should teach them :)
With how easy shaman's quest is to complete I always felt it should've been your next minions battlecry, not ALL of them for that turn.
I am really curious what they will do since I think it's not just a single card or two, it's almost all of them that are problematic, so to get a balanced outcome seems almost impossible. Changing one or two will not have any effect, while changing all of them might kill the class.
But there are probably some statistic tools that can be used here to pinpoint the major pain.
They don't need to nerf every powerful card. Every class has a bunch of over-tuned cards and that's fine; they are the reason to play those classes after all. They just need to make sure no single archetype has too many working towards the same goal, which is where shaman is right now.
Assuming the changes are significant enough, hitting 2 or 3 will probably bring the number of over-tuned cards in line with what other classes have, which is ultimately the aim.
Moved to Nerf a Hearthstone Card.
While i love what Shaman Quest did for the class and what crazy things can you pull off, it was very apparent to me from the day it was introduced that it will eventually become a problem, or at least limit design space. Which is funny, since they nuked some cards in the past for that exact purpose.
Does it need a nerf? Most likely, eventually. But how would you go about it? Could the cost of Hero Power be increased to 3? That would probably be the best option, but as said, unlikely. Should the requirement be tougher, so it comes in play later? Or should it affect only next Battlecry this turn, not all of them? If you can combine the latter two, maybe that would be realistic, tho given how Blizzard works, if they were to do that, they would most likely just did one of the two and then later on added the second, if they deemed it necessary.
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I can accept others but I don't think Corrupt Elementalist's probelm lies behind mana cost and don't think Overload will fix it.
All other Galakrond Classes needs all neutral Invoke cards to be consistent upgraded Galakrond except Shaman. That's the problem about this card.
Btw, I have %58 winrate with my Unlimited Kronx Rogue and %60 winrate with Dragon/murloc Shaman against all shamans.
So, There are decks which can also win against this deck. It's about popularity not brokenness imo.
Unpopular Opinion Incarnate
I don't see how changing Heart of Vir'naal from "Your Battlecries trigger twice this turn." to "Your next Battlecry trigger twice this turn" would actually solve the Galakrond Shaman problem. This quest is the best thing that's happened to shaman in a while and it would suck if that's what ends up being nerfed instead of the Invoke cards or Galakrond himself.
What needs to be nerfed in my opinion is Galakrond's Hero Power as well as his Battlecry.
I agree. In fact, there's already an Overload variant of Galakrond Shaman that uses Corrupt Elementalist. In that case it would end up being a buff
See you in the next dimension...
The quest is just too powerful. Right now we can nerf galakrond, or shudderwock, or corrupt elementalist and get rid of this annoying deck. But later the quest will be used in another broken shaman deck. Sooner or later, we will have to nerf the quest because it is just too good and it will always be too good.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
But how is it the problem if the best version of Galakrond Shaman doesn't even run it ?
This is why everyone is asking to nerf the quest in addition to other cards such as Galakrond, the Tempest, Corrupt Elementalist, and Dragon's Pack.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
I feel like they won't change the quest, but if they do it will be very minor like increasing the requirement from 6 battlecries to 7. I think they really just overtuned Galakrond. Doubling the invocations isn't nearly as bad as doubling Galakrond's battlecry, aside from the fact it can expedite the upgrades. Several 2/1 minions with rush aren't overly oppressive but being able to accelerate your way to a double Galakrond battlecry is, for Shaman at least.
A possible change could be to lower the health of the minions Galakrond's battlecry summons. Currently they scale as 2/2, 4/4, 8/8. I was thinking instead of doubling the health as well they could do 2/2, 4/3, 8/4, which makes it a lot easier to deal with and likely results in the minions being destroyed if they are traded into others.
Maybe 8/4 is a little underwhelming for the final form, perhaps 8/6 or 6/6 would be ok. I haven't tested it of course but apparently neither have the devs so who knows! The real strength of it is supposed to be the rush aspect i think, but if you get 4 8/8 minions there's way less options for clearing the remnants.
Alternatively they could just increase the mana cost to 9 so it's unlikely anyone could use the quest reward with it. I think that reduces the fun factor more though. I expect them to make a less drastic change.
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After playing a lot of Galakrond Shaman over the past week, and knowing the type of nerfs that Blizzard is known for, I'm almost 1000000% sure that they will overcompensate and hamper the deck so much that they will then be forced to deal with the flood of other OP styles.
If only there was a way that they could RESEARCH and DEVELOP a good nerf that will not only remove the overwhelming threat the current meta is taking, but still balance out the class so that it isn't unplayable. But hey, we can dream can't we.