Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread

  • Neoguli's Avatar Duskrider 715 365 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 1 week, 4 days ago

    Quote From Hordaki
    I like the idea, but I feel like you should make it an Un'Goro minion and emphasize the Barnabus synergy in your description.
    It's not really necessary to point out, just a cherry on top. Otherwise people will probably not focus on Murloc Tinyfin synergy.

    Hearthcards deck creating enthusiast. Also previously known on Hearthpwn as Cooler39140 and Huoyan.

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  • Demonxz95's Avatar Content Squad Crossroads Historian 1760 1869 Posts Joined 03/19/2019
    Posted 1 week, 4 days ago

    Off of some feedback, here are some more traditional Murloc cards. I say "traditional" even though Priest is definitely not a traditional Murloc class nor is Freeze a mechanic typically seen on Murlocs (except for obviously Brrrloc).

    I was initially hesitant to post Shoreline Gatherer when I noticed that Wailor already used the art after I already made it (and there had been no duplicate arts so far), but then I realized that people using the same art is probably just going to happen anyway.

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  • KangTheConqueror's Avatar Banned 150 63 Posts Joined 07/20/2021
    Posted 1 week, 4 days ago

    Lundy:

    Show Spoiler
    I would make Tirion a 4/4  because its a legendary minion and 3/3 stats just look meh and make Broodmother a 4/6 or make it 5 mana. The 4/5 frenzy minion in warrior works because it has rush and it's 5 mana a 7 mana 4/5 frenzy isn't good because its hard to trigger

    Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang! 

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  • R's Avatar Design Champion 765 557 Posts Joined 04/23/2020
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Not sure what's better - from hand or from deck?

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  • Arkasaur's Avatar Design Champion 235 37 Posts Joined 09/12/2020
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks for the feedback, I've updated The Wereloc from a few of the suggestions, with 2 versions:

    The design intention was towards converting low-stat murlocs into more considerable threats in the mid-game, so I've switched it to only transform murlocs. Allowing for decks that run early-game murlocs and midgame non-murloc threats. As to the Rush mechanic, I'm concerned that it would give aggressive shaman decks too easy a chance to switch into a burst-damage gameplan by heavily stalling the board (that may not necessarily be a bad design result however). Thoughts?

    Edit Re Anchorm4n below: Ringmaster's Baton, Farraki Battleaxe, Dragonrider Talritha don't include 'random' largely for text-box niceness, which is relevant enough here that I'm happy to exlude it, especially for the Rush version. of course it should normally be included. 

    More Feedback:

    Show Spoiler

    @anchorm4n Lili'idan: A little close to Kayn's design for my liking. Mechnapper: I like, though I question how effective it would be at 4 mana as a tech card. Darktide Reaper: Unusual for a Murloc, a possibly decent control tool, but I'm not sure thats a positive in this case as it results in clear anti-synergy with other murlocs Unsure on this one. 

    @AeroJulwin Axolfin: I think this effect (or at least its wording) is probably too confusing to track in game. Overall I think the previous Necromancer is a more workable design.

    @Cheese I wont repeat the concerns about Battlegrounds cards, and I'm not an expect BG player myself, so take my balance suggestions with a grain of salt: I think it should probably sit at tier 3/4 with a higher statline. +3/+3 can stack up quickly, and typically murloc builds want to quickly turn their early-game murlocs into large threats anyway - What this means is that you arent usually buying murlocs for their bodies anyway, and this buff is just better in most circumstances. Tier3/4 puts this into a tier where you're more likely to be at a stage of the game where you're looking for this effect in particular.

    @Neoguli Nice simple design, balance is great. Flavour is hard to judge without knowing the "set" that would existing around it, could be better on that front if you want it to hit home as a standalone card. 

    @Wailor Holyfin Crusader is a bit more interesting - stick with it I think.

    @shatterstar1998 I like the Vilefin Spawner with the 1/1's. Though I think you could probably just summon the 1/1 if you want to be more direct. The flavour of it could use some improvement, the link between "Vilefin Spawner" and tradeable that generates murlocs isn't thematically clear.

    @Demonxz95 I really like Shoreline Gatherer: meets a good ground between interesting mechanical twist on murlocs and suiting the class/tribe/flavour of Murloc oracles etc. I'd limit the effect to when friendly characters are healed however; same reasoning as to the old Eaglehorn Bow change. And yes, keeping that art should be fine.

    @R I like cunning Tidehunter - fits well into what Murlocs do and can serve as a nice board refill tool for those decks. Might be possible to just check for other Murlocs, to give it a bit of an easier time in the inevitable shaman and paladin decks it'll end up it.

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  • anchorm4n's Avatar The Cake Is A Lie 1580 1606 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Thank you all for your feedback! While the majority seems to prefer Lil'idan, I feel way more comfortable with Mechnapper. The flavor wasn't immediately clear to everyone, so I've zoomed in on the art, that hopefully helps. Now I'd be very grateful for some help with the balance. Some of you said it's too weak and wouldn't see play, so I made another version that steals a Mech with up to 3 Attack. Which one is better? Any other ideas regarding the stats? Should it be cheaper?

     

    3 Attack Mechs from Boomsday

    Looks like Zilliax makes the whole difference, but that card was run in nearly every deck as long as it was in Standard, so yeah, maybe it's worth it to go to 3 Attack.

    More Feedback:

    Arkasaur
    I still like it. Doesn't it miss a "random" in the text though? I'm curious what the others have to say about Rush. It's a tough decision.

    R
    Cunning Tidehunter is cool, btut I'd lower the Cost and the stats a bit. Tidefin Murloc is too strong imho. Library Magicfin has the worst art of them all and a very small pool (lol) to discover from. I'd go with Cunning Tidehunter.

    Demonxz95
    Both are solid design, but I think Glazier Crystalfin can be used in more decks, so that's the one I'd go with.

    shatterstar 1998
    I like the Discover version of the Tradeable card. It's quite strong, but you probably can't abuse it because it gets shuffled into your deck when you trade it. Nice idea! Murgatha isn't something I'd go with because the art and the name are already in the game and the effect is just too strong for my taste.

    Wailor
    Tough decision since both are very cool. I'm a big fan of simple designs and I think Neutral cards might perform better in this comp so I'd go with Pearl Seeker.

    Lundy
    Tirion is super cool, but it misses Taunt. As sad as I am to say this, Broodmother has better flavor though.

    Neoguli
    Cool card, I like it!

    Cheese
    Nice idea, but I agree with the others that using a BG card might cost you points. Can't really contribute something about the balance since I don't play BG.

    AeroJulwin
    I still like it, but I'd cut the part about the enchantments because that makes it unnecessarily complicated. That would make it a Soul of the Murloc on a stick but that's fine for me.

    I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
    Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com

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  • Cheese's Avatar 250 152 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I'm dead set on trying a BG card for this theme. For science.

    Still not sure at which tier I should put it.

    I must also add that the meal gives +3/+3 to ANY minion. When you play Cookie, you're definitely NOT playing murloc. Also, one precision: If you buy the 3rd copy of a murloc it will still become golden and not turn into a meal since the text on Cookie says "after".

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  • AeroJulwin's Avatar Fan Creator 70 10 Posts Joined 07/08/2021
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Alright, we're a few versions in, but I think this is the final result. Although I think the enchantment mechanic fits Murlocs because they focus on buffing each other, it ultimately proofed too complex, so I removed it. I did keep the Battlecry for reliability and to prevent a boardwipe using Lushwater Scout.

    I added the Stealth effect for several reasons. For starters I didn't want it to just be a Soul of the Murloc with a body, so I wanted to add something extra. Because I originally designed the card for board sustain, Stealth seemed like the obvious choice. As a happy coincidence it also fits the flavor.

    Although it's clearly better than Soul of the Murloc, I think keeping it a Rare card should be fine considering it is exclusive to Murlocs whereas Soul of the Murloc targets all friendly minions.

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  • shatterstar1998's Avatar Eevee 255 89 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    People seem to like my first idea a lot more. So I decided to focus on that. Change the name to Vilefin Trafficker to get the idea of Tradeable coming more across:

    Feedback to cards since my last post:

    Show Spoiler

    Demonxz95: Both of them are quite creative. I think the first Murloc should be a Mage card to fit in with the Freeze synergy and the potential power level.

    R: The from hand effect is fine. From deck is just too powerful of a comeback tool and if you do you should increase the cost to 5.

    Cheese: The new version with Tier 3 seem fine. Fit great in mid range playstyle.

    Aero Juwin:  The card seem fine but would be super annoying and doesn't fit with Murloc at all since they are supposed to have little guard against board clear.

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  • linkblade91's Avatar Global Moderator Lissandra 1405 1422 Posts Joined 02/09/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Just as a reminder so we're all clear, I HATE Murlocs. They're quintessential stupid aggro bullshit wrapped in an ugly fish-frog skin. With that bias in mind, let's begin:

    Show Spoiler

    shatterstar1998 - I like the idea of using Tradeable, even though it doesn't feel like something you "trade" or have to do with trading/merchants in general. The name-change helps in that regard, at least. "Discover a Murloc" is more powerful than the Tinyfin, of course, but I still feel like it might be the way to go. For flavor and power reasons: spending 1 mana to cycle a card means you're not spending the mana to build your board and go face, so the payoff has to be worth it.

    AeroJulwin - Soul of the Murloc aside, Murlocs are supposed to be weak to clearing. Ignoring that for a moment, something else is that the Ghosts are not Murlocs, which the deck won't appreciate because it wants to stay "in tribe" for synergies and the like. If we want to forcibly yank the tribe away from its aggressive tendencies into something different then I'm all for it; I just don't think this is the way to go about that.

    Cheese - When I first saw your card I was concerned with it being Tier 2, so updating it to Tier 3 or 4 is a step in the right direction in my opinion. I think Tier 3 might be okay. It's weird that you would be essentially playing any-other tribe beyond Murlocs, and just using Cookie's effect to buff your Dragons/Eles/whatever, but it's still interesting. For science!

    anchorm4n - I say "YOLO, let it steal Zilliax!" Not sure if this should exist in the same expansion as E.M.P. Operative with regards to Mech-hate, but it's not the worst thing. It can also steal a SN1P-SN4P played straight, by the way. I will say though that this is a Murloc in flavor only and that might hurt you. It doesn't have to be a Murloc at all; it just happens to be one.

    Arkasaur - Frankly, I think the non-Rush version is too boring. You're just making "vanilla" 4/3s; there's got to be more utility than that to warrant being an effective Legendary. I've also seen this art + name + effect like four separate times in my card-making "career", so something to keep in mind I guess.

    R - With some tweaking of the flavor, you could shift the Cunning Tidehunter to Kobolds & Catacombs and incorporate Recruit. Might be worth a consideration *shrugs* Not to say it's bad as-is or anything like that; I just think the flavor is lackluster.

    Demonxz95  - I shudder to think of Murlocs expanding out to Priest, of all things. Healing in said deck would also be super weird, but I applaud the dramatic reversal of "the Murloc way" (i.e: Aggro), so maybe the originality will benefit you. I really don't like Glacier Crystalfin because the Murloc aspect feels tacked-on: it's a Freeze-related card that happens to be a Murloc.

    Wailor - I would just stick with Holyfin Crusader. The art makes perfect sense with the class, and it just…works.

    Lundy - Tirion Forgrgl is a meme; some people will like that, and some people will very much not. I prefer the Broodmother because it's "an actual card" and not a gimmick. Cost feels really high, but not sure how to tone it down.

    Neoguli - I'm sure someone would find a way to break it when more deck cost-reduction cards come into existence. If it could draw 1-Cost cards you could pair it with Spirit of the Dead and its ilk, or just to draw the other Seashore Tinyfin. Don't know if that would pull too far away from your "kawaii" intentions, though :P

    Hordaki - I like the Merchant because it pushes you to build your deck differently. You can't just go all-Murlocs-all-day; you would need to incorporate Tradeable cards. I think the text is fine as-is :)

    If you have the time, you should totally check out our weekly Hearthstone card design competitions! :D

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  • linkblade91's Avatar Global Moderator Lissandra 1405 1422 Posts Joined 02/09/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I changed my Warlock card to an Epic and made it say "to (do X)" to make sure that a Murloc is destroyed for the board-buff. I tried to fit the text on three lines but it doesn't look good. For your consideration, I also included two new cards based on the art I found in my stash:

    Murlocs too small to push through that Taunt? Want to double-up after all your Murlocs attacked? Suddenly feel like going tall after you built that wide board? Franken-Mrrgl has got you covered. Maybe he should say "to gain their stats" instead of just +3/+3.

    Inquiring Shock-Fin doesn't need to be a Murloc, to be fair. The Rush is implied to be from the shock-stick in its hand, probing them lol. Name could stand to be better.

    If you have the time, you should totally check out our weekly Hearthstone card design competitions! :D

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  • AnAngryBadger's Avatar Mankrik's Wife 640 208 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I've actually been slowly trying to make a Murloc expansion so this I've got a few ideas

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  • linkblade91's Avatar Global Moderator Lissandra 1405 1422 Posts Joined 02/09/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago
    Quote From AnAngryBadger

    I've actually been slowly trying to make a Murloc expansion so this I've got a few ideas

    1. Tinyfin uses existing art, and you're heavily zoomed in (which is noticeable in the pixelation of the artwork). Not everyone will complain, but some will (like myself). The effect is interesting, though; I will give it that.
    2. Gillidari Avenger seems fine, and wins my vote by default. "Attack" should be capitalized; that's my only gripe.
    3. Mushfin is the second coming of Coldlight Oracle, and...No. Just...no. It was removed from Standard for a reason, and I don't want to see another of its ilk ever.
    4. Losing Mana Crystals is more of a Warlock thing, and-is the art for Mana Murloc.

    If you have the time, you should totally check out our weekly Hearthstone card design competitions! :D

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  • KangTheConqueror's Avatar Banned 150 63 Posts Joined 07/20/2021
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Just looking for some feedback.

    Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang! 

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  • linkblade91's Avatar Global Moderator Lissandra 1405 1422 Posts Joined 02/09/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago
    Quote From KangTheConqueror

    Just looking for some feedback.

    In my opinion, you can't have both effects at the same time on a single card. Either have the face damage, or have the free Murlocs; both makes the card self-sufficient after the first death. You just loop the 1/1s repeatedly for board clearing and face damage, which is simply too much. It's that or it definitely needs to be a Legendary, but even then...

    If you have the time, you should totally check out our weekly Hearthstone card design competitions! :D

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  • KangTheConqueror's Avatar Banned 150 63 Posts Joined 07/20/2021
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago
    Quote From linkblade91
    Quote From KangTheConqueror

    Just looking for some feedback.

    In my opinion, you can't have both effects at the same time on a single card. Either have the face damage, or have the free Murlocs; both makes the card self-sufficient after the first death. You just loop the 1/1s repeatedly for board clearing and face damage, which is simply too much. It's that or it definitely needs to be a Legendary, but even then...

    Then I'll make it 3 mana with just the face damage effect.

    Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang! 

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  • KangTheConqueror's Avatar Banned 150 63 Posts Joined 07/20/2021
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang! 

    0
  • Wailor's Avatar Design Champion 410 364 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    I already posted Holyfin Crusader, but I droped the Divine Shield on the main body as Hordaki suggested bc it seemed a bit too strong.

    Anyways, more feedback:

    shatterstar1998
    My favorite card is the Vilefin Trafficker with the Discover effect. Pretty neat card, IMO.

    Demonxz95
    Don't worry about the reused card. I ended up using a different card, and I don't think it's too bad if two cards use the same one, especially in a competition with a limited art pool like this one.

    About your cards, I think Glacier Crystalfin is my favorite, but both the artwork and the effect scream Shaman to me. You could even put it in Knights of the Frozen Throne, since that expansion featured both Freeze and Murloc synergy for Shaman.

    R
    The flavor is pretty good, and the requirement plus the fact that Murlocs tend to be low-cost, makes it not broken.

    Arkasaur
    I think the Rush version is balanced, so I'd go with this one. Now that the card is playable, I think this could easily win the comp.

    anchorm4n
    I still prefer the Demon Hunter card, but okay. Between the two, I think the 4 mana cost is better, because 6 for a tech card seems like too much, even if it hits a card like Zilliax.

    Cheese
    It's hard to tell because it's a very weird card.

    On the one hand, it is very good on Lightfang builds, because it allows you to spend gold without needing a free slot, which is something these builds tend to struggle with.

    On the other hand, it's completely unplayable in most Murloc builds, because it doesn't allow you to use their Battlecries, which is the build strenght.

    All in all, I'd say Tavern Three is more appropriate, but it's really hard to tell.

    AeroJulwin
    I still believe it should be an aura effect, but otherwise it's your best iteration. You should probably use a non-Classic watermark, though.

    linkblade91
    I like both new cards more than Felfin Inquisitor. Franken-Mrrgl is probably my fav of the bunch because of flavor. And yes, I agree he should gain their stats instead (murlocs tend to be small, so it wouldn't be too OP)

    AnAngryBadger
    I think Mushfin Oracle is my favorite of the bunch, very nice flexibility, especially in case you Discover it. Also, I really enjoy callback cards.

    Gillidari Avenger is also neat, but it would need more support than it currently has, so maybe some people punish that a little bit.

    The other two cards have neat effect (especially Tinyfin, the Unkillable, although the artwork is too blurry), but I don't see the need for them to be Murlocs.

    KangTheConqueror
    I agree with your decision to make it only go face. The effect doesn't seem very flashy, but I find it very appropriate for a Neutral card.

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  • linkblade91's Avatar Global Moderator Lissandra 1405 1422 Posts Joined 02/09/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Went with Franken-Mrrgl; thank you Wailor. I will blame you if I lose lol :)

    I hate Murlocs, so submitting a card that destroys your Murlocs seems on point.

    If you have the time, you should totally check out our weekly Hearthstone card design competitions! :D

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  • Demonxz95's Avatar Content Squad Crossroads Historian 1760 1869 Posts Joined 03/19/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Feedback time while the reveals are paused. Glacier Crystalfin seems to be the popular choice, so I think I'll go with that one. I kinda want to keep it Neutral though (specifically if I put it in KotFT as Shaman having both it and Brrrloc in the same set would be a little bit weird). Skipping a few people who have already submitted if I don't have anything to add to the discussion.

    Wailor
    Well you've already submitted, but I do think your submitted version of Holyfin Crusader is pretty damn good. Probably the best card you've come through with in this competition so far.

    Shatterstar1998
    You've also already submitted, so I can't really help you. I personally preferred the first version of Vilefine Spawner, though I think the version you submitted will likely get the job done in score since it uses Tradeable in an interesting way that I appreciate.

    Arkasaur
    Definitely go with the Rush version in my opinion.

    Anchorm4n

    Zooming in on the art actually does help with the flavor. Pretty smart thinking!

    I do think it's perhaps a bit too "on the nose" in terms of being a Zilliax counter, but I think the flavor alone will have a good chance of carrying you forward.

    AnAngryBadger

    Tinyfin, the Unkillable has some funny flavor, but the artwork is too pixelated and is obviously a zoomed-in version of Tinyfin's Caravan.

    Gillidari Avenger is definitely my favorite of the bunch, though suiciding Murlocs for a measly +1 Attack boost per Murloc is usually not going to do as much damage as simply just using them to attack face instead. Thus, I think it renders the card a bit situational.

    Mushfin Murloc and Mana Murloc I'm unfortunately not a big fan of. The former doesn't feel like a Choose One design that would be printed and I think it's a bit that one choice is basically just Coldlight Oracle, and the latter feels too cluttered in different effects of which not all of them feel very Druid-like.

    KangTheCounqueror
    I like it for the most part. It's typically just better to use the Murlocs to hit face instead which will give more damage output, but it could potentially give you quite a lot of chip damage attacking through Taunt minions or disincentivizing AoE clears, or even if you need to make emergency trades.

    I think I really need to work on giving feedback more often because a lot of people submit and then I have something else to add to the cards they made.

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