Northshire Cleric & Eternium Rover

  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    In this thread I want to discuss Northshire Cleric and Eternium Rover specifically, and (future) 1 mana 1/3s more generally. Simply put, I don't think minions with this premium statline should have more than one relatively minor benefit, like the beast tag on Dire Mole or the 5 health to armor swap on Crystallizer. On the one hand, 4 stats + goodies just too much value for one mana, but more than that, the fact that these cards can be played on turn one and in all likelihood can't be removed by the opponent means that the effects they add also stick around. 

    As such I think both Northshire Cleric and Eternium Rover should be nerfed to 1/2 instead of 1/3. It'd be a relatively minor nerf, certainly less impactful than increasing the mana cost, but it'd at least give the opponent a chance to remove them cleanly on turn one or two. To be clear, it's not my intention to hose these cards into the ground: You'd still be able to do massive draws with cleric later on and you'd still be able to spend one extra mana on Zilliax to attach it to a Rover, mostly you'd just lose a bit of tempo and certainty if you play these cards on turn 1.

    -1
  • Yusuke's Avatar
    295 187 Posts Joined 06/02/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    If this nerfs happend, then  i demand a change for manawrym as well, because the nerf was absolutely wrong. They should decrease the health, but not increase the cost of it...

    7
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I can't disagree with the argument, although some testing is required to fully understand the impact of such a change, in particular on Northshire Cleric (an alternative for her is changing her condition to 'when another minion is healed', maintaining her full Tempo, but reducing her draw power during early turns).

    And we should add Glow-Tron to the discussion as well, as it's got 1/3, Mech tribe and Magnetic. That's more than Dire Mole or Crystallizer.

    PS: notice that all the targeted minions are class cards, as opposed to neutral cards. Historically, class cards are slightly better than similar neutral ones.

    5
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    Strong 1/3s aren't an issue in wild and Eternium Rover will rotate next year anyway. No need to hurt priest decks in wild because of standard.

    Might also give Blizzard some incentive to actually add a few good classic cards for priest for once. 

    2
  • Yusuke's Avatar
    295 187 Posts Joined 06/02/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    This should include manawyrm as well... hate the new useless wyrm.

    0
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Yusuke
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    This should include manawyrm as well... hate the new useless wyrm.

    While I would have agreed pre-SoU, unnerfing Mana Wyrm right now would most likely push secret mage even further over the top. 

    2
  • SamHobbs494's Avatar
    Scrambled Eggs 400 245 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Do people really hate priest thaaaat much?

    Rover rotates so whatever deal with it, manawyrm already get wrecked so this is secretly just a "screw priest even more" thread.

    Cleric is the only card this would really affect that is in play and it would be devastating to a class that gets 0 support already. 

     

     



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  • Zwane's Avatar
    Wizard 320 423 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I do not think Cleric is the problem, but the nice follow-up Priest currently has to immediately play damaged minions which can be healed with a 0-cost spell to suddenly get massive card draw and big minions early game. The complete combinations of those cheap cards is overwhelming, a single cleric that yields one or two extra cards early game is not the problem. The big overstatted board that arises shortly after is the problem.

    -1
  • Khaostheory1980's Avatar
    Enjoys Cake 355 224 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I think it's dangerous to nerf cleric, it should be a powerful class card.

    I don't think the card draw is what everyone is really unhappy with, they're unhappy with combo priest. Nerf the combo.

    However if they nerf the combo they should also buff priest in other areas as right now no-one plays anything other than combo. All the other priest decks pale in comparison.

    2
  • lMarcusl's Avatar
    390 385 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I think the 1/3 statline for 1 regardless of abilities is a mistake in general. I played Shadowverse for a while and though I don't agree or like a lot of the design there, one thing that was really nice was the clear hierarchy of minion costs and stats. No 1-drop minion had better than 1/2 stats, if they had an ability, their stats were most frequently 1/1. Unless a 2-drop had some serious abilities and thus took a major hit to its stats, a 1-drop simply had no chance of killing a 2-drop. Because, duh, you paid twice the amount of mana, of course it should be better. Similarly, two drops were mostly 2/2s, never 3/2s, so they never competed with 3-drops, which were generally 2/3s, etc etc.

    In HS, the statlines are all over the place. There are one drops that merrily trade with the most common two drops (Brazen Zealot is the latest example) or snowball to sizes that can compete with 4-drops (the recently nerfed Mana Wyrm, Tunnel Trogg still does this shit, as could Undertaker and Brazen Zealot), 2-drops with 3/2 statline kill slightly understatted 3-drops, but themselves die to 2/1 1-drops etc. The reason 1/3 for 1 is so egregious is that there is literally no way outside of Forbidden Words to kill such a minion cost efficiently. The nearest removal that does the job is Frostbolt, for twice the amount of mana. Beyond that, you have to make major concessions through cards like Spirit Bomb, Soulfire or Corruption (lol). That means that any deck that goes first and lands its 1/3 is ahead for the foreseeable future right out of the gate with no room for response. This philosophy needs to change, and it's not limited to just Northshire Cleric or Rover. The stat hierarchy should be rethought across the board in Hearthstone IMO. 

    0
  • Motions's Avatar
    95 13 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    Strong 1/3s aren't an issue in wild and Eternium Rover will rotate next year anyway. No need to hurt priest decks in wild because of standard.

    Might also give Blizzard some incentive to actually add a few good classic cards for priest for once. 

    HoF the only basic class card draw minion for priest is a really bad idea.
    It will make it so that Priest will definately only be playing resurrect decks, as there is no other viable deck option available.
    Once those resurrect cards rotate, they will be bottom tier again. 

    I rather see a minor nerf instead.

    0
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Guys guys, this isn't a priest salt thread. If that was my point I would've framed it as such. Aggro/combo priest is cancer, sure, but I don't think Cleric is the main culprit there, it's mostly Divine Spirit + Inner Fire/Topsy and enablers. And yes, I agree that priest's evergreen set and class identity need a full do-over, but again, that's not really the point of this thread and if anything, I'd argue that such a do-over *necessarily* would involve nerfing or changing some of the busted cards as well, not just the poop cards. As long as Priest has fuck-you-I-win cards like Northshire and Divine Spirit the rest of the class will remain a steaming pile of garbage, because right now priest is balanced around a handful of clearly broken cards. It's the same reason why priest is unplayable until it's suddenly the most oppressive deck in the meta (until nerfs/rotations eventually kill the deck). Priest is terribly designed at a very fundamental level and for years Blizzard has been slapping on band-aid after band-aid to cover it up.

     

     

    No this thread was specifically about overstatted one-drops with upsides, which in my opinion give the player going first such a gross advantage that it's almost unrecoverable if their opponent is playing aggro. lMarcusl articulates the argument very well, although in my opinion vanilla 1/3 is an acceptable statline, IMO it becomes a problem if the minion is a priority target (like Cleric, Tunnel Trogg or pre-nerf Mana Wyrm). Hell I'd argue that Rover is a priority target due to the synergy the Warrior has with armour as well as the existence of SN1P-SN4P, Zilliax and other discoverable magnetic effects. 

    Regarding Glow-Tron, I'd honestly forgotten about him, but I'm a bit torn about whether that card makes the cut. Same for Voidwalker and I suppose Flame Imp. In the case of Glow-Tron, I think the card is considerably weaker than the other two I mentioned in the OP, not to mention the fact that it's just a mechanical Dire Mole if you play it turn 1. Magnetize is a powerful mechanic on cards you don't play on turn 1 because it lets you buff minions on the board; if you have a Glow-Tron in your opening hand it's almost always going to played on that turn. So in that regard, I think Glow-tron is a less threatening 1-drop than the cleric or the Rover, although I'm open to persuasive arguments to the contrary. Regarding the demon brothers Voidwalker and Flame Imp, I think the situation is comparable to priest in a sense. WL has always had trash class cards to make up for the hero power... and a bunch of hyper-aggressive evergreen cards that almost guarantee that Zoo is a viable archetype  in every meta(Flame Imp, Voidwalker, Soulfire, Power Overwhelming). The reason I'm reluctant to touch the demons is that Zoo is rarely oppressively powerful, and without it the class becomes an absolute meme unless they print Voidlords and Defiles every other expansion. As with priest, the class would probably need a much more substantive revision to not have the class be carried by a couple of obviously OP cards.

     

    I'd be uncomfortable demanding a 1 mana 1/2 Mana Wyrm as I think that type of snowball-y aggressive 1-drop is unhealthy for the game, even if it comes with only 2 health.

    I don't play nearly enough wild to say anything about Tunnel Trogg balance-wise but I remember the card being bonkers in standard, so it'd probably be a more fair card that way. Whether or not Wild ought to be fair is a topic I'd rather avoid in this thread.

    Regarding HoF rotation for cleric, while that's certainly an option, the class would be decimated losing two key cards so soon after each other. Not to mention, as a standard player and a fan of combo and control priest, I'd definitely miss girl. T_T

     

    Anyway, thanks for the responses guys.

    2
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Motions
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    Strong 1/3s aren't an issue in wild and Eternium Rover will rotate next year anyway. No need to hurt priest decks in wild because of standard.

    Might also give Blizzard some incentive to actually add a few good classic cards for priest for once. 

    HoF the only basic class card draw minion for priest is a really bad idea.
    It will make it so that Priest will definately only be playing resurrect decks, as there is no other viable deck option available.
    Once those resurrect cards rotate, they will be bottom tier again. 

    I rather see a minor nerf instead.

    Please read my entire post, thank you. 

     

    Butchering priest's early game in wild just so its dumpsterfire standard counterpart gets another band-aid fix seems like a terrible solution in my opinion.

    I agree that Northshire Cleric and Eternium Rover are too strong for standard right now and that Blizzard should not print similar cards anymore in the future. But I am opposed to nerfing them.

     

    What I want to see is Northshire Cleric hall of famed and Blizzard printing a handful of good, standalone, basic/classic priest cards. So that priest finally has a shell that its future archetypes can work with, like nearly every other class.

    And yes, Tunnel Trogg was absolutely busted in standard and yet sees no play whatsoever anymore in wild. This is the main reason why I don't want to see Northshire Cleric get nerfed.

    2
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
    Quote From Motions
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    Strong 1/3s aren't an issue in wild and Eternium Rover will rotate next year anyway. No need to hurt priest decks in wild because of standard.

    Might also give Blizzard some incentive to actually add a few good classic cards for priest for once. 

    HoF the only basic class card draw minion for priest is a really bad idea.
    It will make it so that Priest will definately only be playing resurrect decks, as there is no other viable deck option available.
    Once those resurrect cards rotate, they will be bottom tier again. 

    I rather see a minor nerf instead.

    Please read my entire post, thank you. 

     

    Butchering priest's early game in wild just so its dumpsterfire standard counterpart gets another band-aid fix seems like a terrible solution in my opinion.

    I agree that Northshire Cleric and Eternium Rover are too strong for standard right now and that Blizzard should not print similar cards anymore in the future. But I am opposed to nerfing them.

     

    What I want to see is Northshire Cleric hall of famed and Blizzard printing a handful of good, standalone, basic/classic priest cards. So that priest finally has a shell that its future archetypes can work with, like nearly every other class.

    And yes, Tunnel Trogg was absolutely busted in standard and yet sees no play whatsoever anymore in wild. This is the main reason why I don't want to see Northshire Cleric get nerfed.

    I don't disagree with your reasoning, and if the alternative is to HoF Northshire and rework priest entirely, I'd take it in a heartbeat. However, I think my proposal is a reasonable compromise if T5 don't want to take such drastic action or want to preserve one of the most defining priest cards in standard, albeit in diminished form.

    Like I said I don't have very strong feelings on wild, so if you say broken is OK, I'll take your word for it. At the time when Mana Wraith got hit, I absolutely would've preferred it get rotated, although that was before Arcane Flakmage and Flame Ward. That said I don't think what I'm proposing is anywhere near as drastic as doubling the mana cost on a one-drop. I'm pretty sure that any deck running cleric would continue to do so.

     

    Anyway, I think most people in the thread largely agree on what the issues are, if not on what the best approach is to solving them.

    -1
  • Hydrafrog's Avatar
    Gul'dan 1840 3268 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Unnerf, then HoF... just like Molten Giant

    0
  • Suchti0352's Avatar
    Hero of Warcraft 890 1030 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Let's just HoF everything...

    5
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali

    I don't disagree with your reasoning, and if the alternative is to HoF Northshire and rework priest entirely, I'd take it in a heartbeat. However, I think my proposal is a reasonable compromise if T5 don't want to take such drastic action or want to preserve one of the most defining priest cards in standard, albeit in diminished form.

    Like I said I don't have very strong feelings on wild, so if you say broken is OK, I'll take your word for it. At the time when Mana Wraith got hit, I absolutely would've preferred it get rotated, although that was before Arcane Flakmage and Flame Ward. That said I don't think what I'm proposing is anywhere near as drastic as doubling the mana cost on a one-drop. I'm pretty sure that any deck running cleric would continue to do so.

     

    Anyway, I think most people in the thread largely agree on what the issues are, if not on what the best approach is to solving them.

    I totally see where you're coming from, but do not underestimate that 1 health nerf. If Northshire Cleric had 2 health it would die to rogue's upgraded hero power, it would die to Kobold Librarian and Buccaneer, it would die to Murkspark Eel and Jade Claws among other things. All of the above cards see a lot of play in wild.

    Yes, your nerf isn't quite as severe as doubling its mana cost, but it would still hurt wild priest far more than it should. Hence my standpoint.

    1
  • KANSAS's Avatar
    Old God Fanatic 1745 2912 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I think the big problem is just that priest as a class never seems to be in a good spot.

    either they have the best deck and everyone hates it, or they are in the worst spot and guess what? it is still annoying to play against. 

    Priest in general does not seem like a very healthy class, no matter where it is in the tier list.

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

    7
  • Hydralisk's Avatar
    Mountain 540 356 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Yusuke

    If this nerfs happend, then  i demand a change for manawrym as well, because the nerf was absolutely wrong. They should decrease the health, but not increase the cost of it...

    I agree with this. They could still keep an eye on it to male sure its the right new change - its worth a try! They have proved that they are not afraid to try things now with the buffs and reverting a couple of them.

    0
  • Synesthesy's Avatar
    240 142 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From lMarcusl

    I think the 1/3 statline for 1 regardless of abilities is a mistake in general. I played Shadowverse for a while and though I don't agree or like a lot of the design there, one thing that was really nice was the clear hierarchy of minion costs and stats. No 1-drop minion had better than 1/2 stats, if they had an ability, their stats were most frequently 1/1. Unless a 2-drop had some serious abilities and thus took a major hit to its stats, a 1-drop simply had no chance of killing a 2-drop. Because, duh, you paid twice the amount of mana, of course it should be better. Similarly, two drops were mostly 2/2s, never 3/2s, so they never competed with 3-drops, which were generally 2/3s, etc etc.

    In HS, the statlines are all over the place. There are one drops that merrily trade with the most common two drops (Brazen Zealot is the latest example) or snowball to sizes that can compete with 4-drops (the recently nerfed Mana Wyrm, Tunnel Trogg still does this shit, as could Undertaker and Brazen Zealot), 2-drops with 3/2 statline kill slightly understatted 3-drops, but themselves die to 2/1 1-drops etc. The reason 1/3 for 1 is so egregious is that there is literally no way outside of Forbidden Words to kill such a minion cost efficiently. The nearest removal that does the job is Frostbolt, for twice the amount of mana. Beyond that, you have to make major concessions through cards like Spirit Bomb, Soulfire or Corruption (lol). That means that any deck that goes first and lands its 1/3 is ahead for the foreseeable future right out of the gate with no room for response. This philosophy needs to change, and it's not limited to just Northshire Cleric or Rover. The stat hierarchy should be rethought across the board in Hearthstone IMO. 

    This isn't true at all IMHO. For 2 reasons. But there is a thing that has changed over time, and this is on favor of your argument.

    First, Hearthstone doesn't have statline all over the place, there is a rule that has strictly been followed over the years, with little exception: vanilla minions have stats equal to their cost, +1. So we have a yeti 4/5 for (4) or an ogre 6/7 for (6). But effects will reduce the stats, and being a class card is worth another +1.
    This means that the standard (1) drop should be 2/1 or 1/2, while a class minion can be 2/2 or 1/3, and more powerfull effects are on 1/1 (or class only 1/2 or 2/1). This means that for design the conditional draw of the cleric or the conditional attack bonus of the (old) wyrm or the tunnel trogg or the secretkeeper is worth (0) mana, and I agree with this because their effect is a deckbuilding one: you need a specific deck to use it well, and you still need some other specific cards to do it right (spells for the wyrm, overloard for the trogg, or an opponent that deliberately summons a 1/1 for you to trade with your cleric).

    And the second point is that the turn 1 1/3 are supposed to be balanced with turn 2 removal, as almost every class has, or had and it's waiting his replacement, a (2) mana card that can do the job:

    The only class missing is paladin.

    Because this is not, IMHO, a point of mana cost (and the design choice that removal may cost more than the removed thing), but a tempo and turn one: turn 1 is followed by turn 2, either with (2) mana or with the coin, and a turn 1 should be answered by turn 2. This is good design IMHO. And if you thing about it, this kind of (1) drop are powerfull only in fast deck if played at turn 1, as we can see with the new unplayable wyrm. So this is a matter of tempo more then a matter of pure costs. Turn 1 play a minion turn 2 remove the above minions sound good to me. 1 card for 1 card.

    Last, the only thing that isn't in favor of my argument are some nerfs, like the one to mana wyrm and to fiery war axe, that aren't in this balance mechanism anymore. But we can safely add that both card aren't played anymore, so I don't know how much they count nowaday.

    -1
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