Barnes is a Poopy Head

One Night in Karazhan
  • Scarletspartan's Avatar
    120 11 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    Barnes Card Image

    This card is an abomination to Wild Mode and Hearthstone in general. Even in Standard, this card was horribly swingy and harmful to the state of the game.

    Many people want this card to cost either 6 or 7 mana, with no stat changes. Other ways to nerf it have been suggested as making a little 1/1 based on what class the deck Barnes is in. Personally, I'd just wanna see him increased in cost.

    This is unlikely, due to a literal 6 month period AND a paid Reddit Ad waking Blizzard up to the originally (5) mana Naga Sea Witch.

    I'd love to hear your thoughts!

    6
  • LyraSilvertongue's Avatar
    360 383 Posts Joined 06/01/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    I don't think a change to Barnes would really do much to prevent Big Priest from steamrolling a lot of control decks. A big minion would still be coming out on T6 possibly and then you'd still be facing multiple waves of big things in the late game. Vargoth would also essentially become the new full mulligan minion for the priest. A Barnes nerf would be mostly useless at this point.

    6
  • FrostyFeet's Avatar
    Senior Writer Derpcorn 2170 1449 Posts Joined 10/20/2018
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago
    Quote From LyraSilvertongue

    I don't think a change to Barnes would really do much to prevent Big Priest from steamrolling a lot of control decks. A big minion would still be coming out on T6 possibly and then you'd still be facing multiple waves of big things in the late game. Vargoth would also essentially become the new full mulligan minion for the priest. A Barnes nerf would be mostly useless at this point.

    While I can agree with control matchups not changing too much (and you couldn't lowroll Barnes from Shadow Essence anymore), a change could have a big impact on more aggressive matchups. After all, quite many cards in the deck are meant to resurrect stuff and remain as dead cards until you get something killed. Turn 5 resurrected Ragnaros (or Obsidian Statue in aggro matchups) is lot harder to deal with than turn 7.

    Even though I may have personally played some Big Priest lately (don't hate me), I'm still continuing to support the "summon a 1/1 actor with a copied card text" nerf idea.

    0
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    Big Priest is an abomination, built upon multiple broken/flawed mechanics: Summon AND Resurrect.

    Nerfing Barnes only will help a bit, but it won't fix the deck back to tier meme where it belongs, mainly because now Archmage Vargoth exists (let's not forget Wild Priest has humongous board clears and survival tools).

    Nerfing Barnes alone would mainly help hyper-Aggro decks (that are already favoured and top tiers). Anything slower would still have a hard time against a properly curving Big Priest with Archmage Vargoth. So the meta wouldn't shift, and the Big Priest population would remain the same.

    And as long as Big Priest is so popular, Control will never make it in the meta (i don't like Control, but Wild desperately needs some more of it. Just a little bit more than now).

    The deck needs both a nerf on Barnes, Shadow Essence, AND the whole Resurrect package. At least +(1) on each card. Possibly +(2) on the cheapest ones.

     

    "Just play Aggro" is not a solution, because it is ruining the mode. 

     

    PS: same goes for Darkest Hour Warlock ofc. Both decks are equally degenerate. And we like Wild mode. Not Degenerate mode...

     

    5
  • Prudence94's Avatar
    Eevee 250 21 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    As other users have stated above Barnes isn't the problem... It's what it feels the worst to lose against but nerfing him wouldn't fix Big Priest... It would just make it more vulnerable to Aggro and Wild doesn't need any more fast Decks in the meta,Murlocs/Pirates and endless spawn of 1/1s are more than enough...

    Personally I feel the best way to fix the Deck would be to rework the whole resurrect mechanic.. If 1 copy of a minion died and was resurrected that minion is no longer in the graveyard so you can't spam Eternal Servitude or Resurrect  to get multiple copies of the same card,also even if you killed the same minion 10 times it's still the same damn minion so it shouldn't be x amount of times in your graveyard but just once.... Unfortunately that is highly unlikely to happen and they seem to be set on nerfing Barnes only so the only other thing I can hope for is that we'll get some kind of actual tech card for the Deck (because filling your Deck with junk minions to try diluting their pool isn't a counter strategy) like Soul Release from Yu-Gi-Oh or Memory Wraith from ESL...

    Obviously if what RavenSunHS suggested happens and they bump in cost all half their cards and erase that abomination from the game I'll be more than happy anyway...

    "この 先は 暗い 夜道 だけが も 知らない  それでも信じて 進むんだ  星が その道 を 少し でも 照らしてくをるのを"

    3
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    Barnes isn't just a problem in big priest though. Albeit a lot less popular, spell hunter can cheat him and Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound out far more consistently on turn 4 than big priest can. Thanks to Tracking and Master's Call. Even in wild most decks just don't have a consistent answer against 14/15 worth of stats on turn 4. Barnes should cease to exist in its current form. But unfortunately, as others have stated, that won't be enough anymore to get rid of big priest.

    2
  • Lightspoon's Avatar
    Merfolk 495 405 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    Cheating out a big minion on turn 6 or 7 it's very different from having it on board on turn 4 (or 3 with The Coin). The issue with Big Priest is not the resurrect mechanics per se, but the chance of starting it so early in the game that it can become almost impossibile to handle it even for fast aggro deck, if the Priest find an Obsidian Statue.

    While I personally don't like Big Priest, I agree that the deck is not so oppressive nowdays but it still a problem in Wild for how much polarizing its matchups are. This kind of heavy one-sided deck are not healthy for the meta and the game itself and the most easy fix to it is nerfing Barnes (probably by making the token he summons just a 1/1 minion that mimic the text card of a minion in your deck, so that if resurrected back it would just be a vanilla 1/1 with no text at all).

    I don't think that the entire ress mechanic or the graveyard management will be changed, considering that they've recently printed more cards that use them (like Mass Resurrection, just to name one).

    "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, and loses his own soul?"

    0
  • Dandy's Avatar
    Lava Coil 105 20 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago
    Quote From LyraSilvertongue

    I don't think a change to Barnes would really do much to prevent Big Priest from steamrolling a lot of control decks. A big minion would still be coming out on T6 possibly and then you'd still be facing multiple waves of big things in the late game. Vargoth would also essentially become the new full mulligan minion for the priest. A Barnes nerf would be mostly useless at this point.

    The difference in the winrate is insanely big if you don't have Barnes on T4 or soon after.

    Control would still have to fight through a lot, sure. But you see the difference in standard right now. Resurrect is still a thing, but far beyond from broken.

    0
  • Arcsun's Avatar
    Rock Rager 240 74 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago
    Quote From FrostyFeet

    Even though I may have personally played some Big Priest lately (don't hate me) 

    .... Anyway, I'm erring more on the side of a change to Resurrect itself to summon minions under a certain mana cost. Other tweaks to cards like Eternal Servitude and Shadow Essence may be necessary too.

    With all the support BP has gained recently, I'm not convinced that nerfing Barnes would have much of an effect. 


     

    0
  • Mfunn's Avatar
    165 13 Posts Joined 06/02/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    I remember making a thread on hearthpwn on wich wild cards you want to be nerfed, ofc Barnes was first place on the list with Voidcaller a close 2nd, and someone suggested a very good nerf for Barnes :

    "Barnes: 4 mana 3/4 Battlecry: summon a 1/1 “Actor” and give it text from a random minion in your deck." this way Barnes is still very good in deathrattle decks like Dane big rogue while nerfing Big Priest a lot putting a 1/1 in the rez pool ( unless they get a 1/1 actor Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound, then you're rekt anyways ); because let's be honest, isnt big priest the only single reason/deck we want to see Barnes nerfed ?

    also, first post on new site Pog !

    Mfunn- justme

    0
  • RandomGuy's Avatar
    430 614 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    I'm very glad to see these terrible threads continue on Hearthpwn's successor site.

    1
  • Synesthesy's Avatar
    240 142 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    Please don't kill me.

    I think that Barnes is fair, the only thing that makes people upset is that Big Priest is really easy to play so many people play it.

    Wild is a game mode meant to have a high power level, there is no problem in that. Then, the strongest deck in wild are more genn/baku related then Barnes related (Odd Paladin, Odd Rogue, Even Shaman, Even Warlock were all rated better then Big Priest in the last Vicious Syndicate's meta report).

    I think that card games should be treated as problem to be solved, instead of a "take the strongest deck and get angry when I lose". The salt thread is a very good thing. Nerfs may or may not be; and there are a lot of powerfull card that I still miss and that I can't play anymore at all. Big priest is too strong in your opinion? Very well. Play a counter. Sooner or later people will play Big Priest no more if no people played deck that can't win against it.
    If and when Big Priest become the strongest deck in ladder, we can speak again about a nerf. Before of that, I still own too many card that I can't play anymore at all, and this doesn't feel right. Expecially for some very fun deck that happened to use some cards in common with some high tier ones.
    And remember that everytime a Pope dies, there is another. Nerf Big Priest, and you'll get some slow control deck taking over, so people ask for nerfs, so an aggro deck come and take over, and the wheel continues to go on.......

     

    As a last word, I can admit that we still would need a good neutral tech against big decks. Something like a unnerfed Tinkmaster Overspark, maybe with some serious downside so it doesn't become a mandatory card.

    1
  • Shosupply's Avatar
    Soulgorger 740 220 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago
    Quote From Synesthesy

     

    I think that card games should be treated as problem to be solved, instead of a "take the strongest deck and get angry when I lose". The salt thread is a very good thing. Nerfs may or may not be; and there are a lot of powerfull card that I still miss and that I can't play anymore at all. Big priest is too strong in your opinion? Very well. Play a counter. Sooner or later people will play Big Priest no more if no people played deck that can't win against it.
    If and when Big Priest become the strongest deck in ladder, we can speak again about a nerf. Before of that, I still own too many card that I can't play anymore at all, and this doesn't feel right. Expecially for some very fun deck that happened to use some cards in common with some high tier ones.
    And remember that everytime a Pope dies, there is another. Nerf Big Priest, and you'll get some slow control deck taking over, so people ask for nerfs, so an aggro deck come and take over, and the wheel continues to go on.......

     

    We have to break the WHEEL!

     

    O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
    Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!

    -1
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    High powerlevel is not equal to flawed/broken.

    It is not a matter of powerlevel, proof is we're still talking of BP when it is no better than t2.

    So apparently the relative powerlevel of BP is LOWER than that of Even Shaman, which is stable at t1 since its inception.

    YET Even Shaman is NOT flawed/broken. BP is.

    That's why BP is toxic and should not be a popular deck.

    1
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago
    Quote From Synesthesy

    Please don't kill me.

    I think that Barnes is fair, the only thing that makes people upset is that Big Priest is really easy to play so many people play it.

    Wild is a game mode meant to have a high power level, there is no problem in that. Then, the strongest deck in wild are more genn/baku related then Barnes related (Odd Paladin, Odd Rogue, Even Shaman, Even Warlock were all rated better then Big Priest in the last Vicious Syndicate's meta report).

    I think that card games should be treated as problem to be solved, instead of a "take the strongest deck and get angry when I lose". The salt thread is a very good thing. Nerfs may or may not be; and there are a lot of powerfull card that I still miss and that I can't play anymore at all. Big priest is too strong in your opinion? Very well. Play a counter. Sooner or later people will play Big Priest no more if no people played deck that can't win against it.
    If and when Big Priest become the strongest deck in ladder, we can speak again about a nerf. Before of that, I still own too many card that I can't play anymore at all, and this doesn't feel right. Expecially for some very fun deck that happened to use some cards in common with some high tier ones.
    And remember that everytime a Pope dies, there is another. Nerf Big Priest, and you'll get some slow control deck taking over, so people ask for nerfs, so an aggro deck come and take over, and the wheel continues to go on.......

     

    As a last word, I can admit that we still would need a good neutral tech against big decks. Something like a unnerfed Tinkmaster Overspark, maybe with some serious downside so it doesn't become a mandatory card.

    You seem to be another one of these misinformed people who think that just because people are complaining about a deck it must be overpowered.

    This is not the case with big priest. People complain about the deck because it is extremely unfun to play against and relies on nothing more than highrolling. The deck either stomps or gets stomped. Nothing in between. 

    Yes, there are decks that are far stronger and more consistent than big priest. Those decks are also far more enjoyable to play against. 

    Barnes arguably isn't even overpowered in wild. He's just extremely unfun. Your opponent playing him on turn 3/4 usually means you lose. Your opponent not drawing him on turn 3/4 usually means you win.

    That's not healthy for the format.

    0
  • Synesthesy's Avatar
    240 142 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
     

    You seem to be another one of these misinformed people who think that just because people are complaining about a deck it must be overpowered.

    This is not the case with big priest. People complain about the deck because it is extremely unfun to play against and relies on nothing more than highrolling. The deck either stomps or gets stomped. Nothing in between. 

    Yes, there are decks that are far stronger and more consistent than big priest. Those decks are also far more enjoyable to play against. 

    Barnes arguably isn't even overpowered in wild. He's just extremely unfun. Your opponent playing him on turn 3/4 usually means you lose. Your opponent not drawing him on turn 3/4 usually means you win.

    That's not healthy for the format.

    I strongly disagree with you.

    First, I accept the fact that people can complain about a deck that isn't overpowered. I just say that if the deck isn't overpowered, the complain can be answered negatively.

    Second, while I said that Big Priest is easy to play, it is less easy to really understand. This is, IMHO, the reason of it all: people think that your opponent has played Exodia while he was playing a 3/4 summon a 1/1 copy of a minion. And people think they would have won if opponent didn't play Barnes too early, while it could have meant only 2 turns more before a shadow essence.
    Obviously the equation Barnes==victory isn't true, and Big Priest's win rate isn't the % of drawing Barnes before turn 4.

    Big Priest is a deck with finite resources. A high number of resources, but still finite. Some of that resources can misfire, expecially if there is a Barnes in the resurrecting pool. There is RNG involved, of course, but that's hearthstone. If you dislike RNG, you should play chess. I like the RNG, it makes the game better. It's the same reason why chess isn't considered a war simulator, as in war you never have everything under control. So I have no problem on the idea that a card can 50% summon a vanilla 3/4 and 50% summon a mighty Ragnaros. However, this is only valid for some turns: after we reach the late game, there isn't that difference from dropping a threat from hand or resurrecting it.

    For how I see things, there are three cases:

    • you are playing a deck with a good match-up against Big Priest, so no problem
    • you are playing a deck with a bad match-up against Big Priest, and you have adapted to make it the more even you could, so no problem
    • you are playing a deck with a bad match-up against Big Priest, and you don't want to adapt or can't adapt: this is a problem

    This is why I think that the right answer is printing a tech instead of nerfing Barnes, so you can adapt. Just as if your deck is bad against Kingsbane Rogue, you put in some Oozes; or dirty rat against mecha'thun.

    What I sometimes see is that a part of the community doesn't want to adapt. This is another problem, and the solution here is less less easy to find. I found that back in the days of quest rogue: I often argued in defence of the quest, because I've almost never lost against a quest rogue with a control deck. I didn't know about high legend, but in my tier (10 to 5 at the time) people wasn't able to understand how quest rogue should be played, so they always went all in into a dragonfire potion.

     

    So, to recap: IMHO, strong doesn't mean unfun, RNG doesn't mean unfun, and unfun doesn't always mean nerf. I think that we need at least Star Aligner Druid power level to need a nerf, so a tier 2 deck doesn't qualify. And last but not least, Barnes on turn 4 alone isn't enough to say win or lose. There is a lot more of things to discuss.

    PS: still think that a nerf to oblivion to Barnes would do nothing. We would need to kill the entire engine of resurrection, taking away resurrections from Priest's identity. And after we would have a worst metagame then now.

    PPS: only personal opinion. Take everything and grammar with a grain of salt.

    2
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    Unfun should always mean nerf because fun is the first and foremost purpose of a game. Obviously.

    RNG doesn't matter, OPness doesn't matter.

    BP is unfun because it ABUSES 2 FLAWED mechanics at the same time (Summon + Graveyard). It's plain out broken, even if not contextually OP.

    Those mechanics are flawed because they are not regulated by mana curve, card draw, and pair limitations. They are flawed because they are basically a dimensional rift in the normal game.

    This notion for which only OPness deserves nerf is just a Standard mindset (where flawed mechanics never receive enough support). Completely insufficient for Wild, where flawed mechanics become apparent in full power, while sheer OPness can always be countered.

     

    PS: we don't need to kill Resurrection. It would be sufficient to add RESTRICTIONS any Summon/Recruit shenanigans (so not just BP) to lategame, where crazy interactions belong. With no possibility to discount them. Say turn 7+ for individual summons, and turn 9+ for multiple summons.

    OR add proportionate target limitations, as it is the case for Silver Vanguard.

    RESTRICTIONS by and on design would fix the current flaws of those mechanics forever.

     

    PPS: no Control deck will ever dominate Wild, because Mage exists, and Kingsbane is just lurking in the shadows.

    0
  • Spindan's Avatar
    30 3 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    Well I haven't checked the history to see if such a suggestion but I do have an idea for an adequate nerf.
    "Battlecry: Reveal a minion from your deck, summon a 1/1 Actor to gain the same text"
    Neuters any annoying ressurection they could pull to at least keep Big Priest from being so annoying.

    When all else fails... Make a really huge mech and embrace your inner Hunter as a Paladin.

    -2
  • zoobernut's Avatar
    Swamp 255 137 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago
    Quote From Spindan

    Well I haven't checked the history to see if such a suggestion but I do have an idea for an adequate nerf.
    "Battlecry: Reveal a minion from your deck, summon a 1/1 Actor to gain the same text"
    Neuters any annoying ressurection they could pull to at least keep Big Priest from being so annoying.

    This suggestion was mentioned in this very thread just a few posts above yours. From what I have seen people seem to think it is one of the better ideas on how to mitigate the craziness of BP. The only thing that it doesn't change is if the priest high rolls and Barns gives them a mini Yogg which then pulls out some other insane creature. In my opinion yogg is the biggest issue with BP is when it snowballs out of control. Barnes getting one of the other big minions can be dealt with. There are transform effects and ways to muddle up the resurrect pool. Yogg combined with Barnes or other cheat cards is the biggest snowball effect. 

    Chaos, Panic, and Disorder, My work here is done. 

    Welcome to the thunder-dome bitch!

    0
  • Painkiller1724's Avatar
    200 132 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 9 months ago

    I also think that Barnes is not the problem. It's the ressurection mechanism. But then again, if it get nerfed, I think we would see even more aggro bulshit decks.

    I only play for about 1,5 years, mainly wild nowadays, so I don't know whichever came first (BP or hiper-aggro, like odd decks, mech hunter, etc.). 

    Don't know if BP would get nerfed people would feel refreshed and play more midrange and control decks... I think it would backfire and we would see more and more odds, evens, murlocs (mgrblrldglbrl, hate that sound!!!l), mechs, etc.

    In the end, wild is just that. The sum of all expansions. It would be interesting to have a mixed mode, like the Arena nowadays, with expansions rotating in a seasonal fashion, so there would be no time/need for nerfing cards.

    0
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