Reworking the resurrection mechanic might be the only way to actually solve the Big Priest issue

  • Morkimus's Avatar
    335 98 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    Blizzard has just stated that Barnes has them in a tough spot, and they are probably not lying. Nerfing Barnes, at this point, would probably achieve very little, as far as stopping Big Priest goes.

    I'd suggest that they instead turned towards the resurrection cards, especially the cheap ones, and change them. Not any change, however. I'd prefer a rework to a nerf. True, we could just butcher all resurrection cards to summon ANY minion that died this game, and that would surely fix things, but I wonder... what if we took this chance, with Reborn showing up as a new keyword, to turn the resurrection mechanic into something else?

     

    My suggestions are as follows (mana cost and stats remain the same):

    Resurrect - Give a minion Reborn. (might require a name change)

    You might be thinking this is just a worse Ancestral Spirit, which in all fairness is true. Priest does, however, possess better ways to heal minions back up from 1 HP. There are certain synergies available to priest that shaman does not possess, including cloning effects.

    Eternal Servitude - Give your minions Reborn.

    Comparable to Evolving Spores, if you may. This card is pretty self-explanatory. A board buff, of which priest has very few, but perhaps good enough to see play by itself.

    Catrina Muerte - At the end of each turn, gain Reborn.

    I am not certain about Catrina. I kind of like the idea of her having Reborn forever unless silenced or transformed, but I don't know how to word that in a better way.

     

    The spellstone, I believe, can stay the same. It takes a while to be powered up, and I doubt it is strong enough to keep Big Priest alive by itself. Thoughts?

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  • Enk's Avatar
    290 70 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    Question is why would they waste time and resource to do that, some developers there are obviously Big Priest fanboys.

    I want to probably be the only one to differ and say Obsidian Statue to me is the sole minion that keeps your minions from going face, or to finish off. 4/8 lifesteal and also destroys your one other minion, and it keeps coming back. Make a change to that card, and you'll see the difference.

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  • kaladin's Avatar
    365 396 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    At this point there's not much they can do.  There are simply too many minions and spells to change.  However if there were changes to be made, here's what they would need to do.

    1. Start with what a "1/1 copy of a minion" is.  It should be a separate entity entirely, its own token you could say, and not simply a full version of the minion with a debuff cast on it.  Resurrecting a 1/1 that has died should resurrect a 1/1, not a full minion.  
    2. Vargoth needs changing.  I'm not sure how, but here's one idea.  Create a new keyword for this because the text is kind of long, but basically, "If this minion would be destroyed or set to 0 health, return it to its owner's hand instead."  That way it can never die and thus never be resurrected into a loop of more resurrects.  And you have to sort of play around the hand size limit.  Might create an interesting gameplay dynamic. 
    3. Shadow Visions.  This is just my opinion but it's a bit ridiculous to have access to more than two copies of the Priest spellstone.  Shadow Visions should have a mana cap for what spells it can discover from your deck.  Alternately, instead of getting a copy of a spell from your deck, how about just getting that spell directly?  "Discover a spell from your deck" for 2-mana seems pretty damned good actually. 
    4. The resurrect mechanic in general.  Perhaps it should summon a minion that died....if it isn't already on the board. No more "resurrect 4 more Lich Kings." 

    Really, they should have never printed some of these cards but if the mechanic is to be fixed and Wild is to be saved by nerfs and not by set rotation, this is where I'd start.  

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  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    While I am all for changing big priest, in whatever way possible, I'm afraid that's not Blizzard's intention. Barnes has them in a tough spot because they're afraid it might nerf big priest. Which is exactly what the majority of the community wants.

    Blizzard are either extremely inconsistent or absolutely clueless when it comes to the format and this is what worries me most.

    Changing the resurrect mechanic into reborn seems like yet another fine solution to me, honestly. 

    I do wonder though, would Catrina Muerte's effect stack? Would her dying four turns after she's been summoned, summon four 6/1s? 

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  • Morkimus's Avatar
    335 98 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    I do wonder though, would Catrina Muerte's effect stack? Would her dying four turns after she's been summoned, summon four 6/1s? 

    I expected it to work like any other keyword. Gaining taunt twice, or gaining lifesteal... Divine shield might be the best comparison. It would only work if she'd lost it

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  • Zertanix's Avatar
    E.V.I.L. Dragon 160 33 Posts Joined 06/16/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    Even now when Big priest is a huge issue, Blizzard prints Plague of Death. That show they are not really looking into ways to solve Big Priest problem and that they only care for standard where priest is arguably worst class.

     

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    Resurrection should bring back EXACTLY the body that died, AND remove it from the Ress pool (until it dies again).

    That's the first and foremost step to apply, and tbh, how it should have always worked in a world that makes sense.

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  • Lightspoon's Avatar
    Merfolk 495 405 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    Nerfing Barnes at this point is just a minor thing, considering that they've printed new cards that support Big Priest in a recent set (Catrina Muerte and Mass Resurrection): the archetype is so consistent now that its almost only issue is to survive long enough to cheat out a minion.

    Instead of just considering a "spot nerf" that will only hit Barnes, they should think of a complete rework on the graveyard mechanic but that probably requires too much effort (because I suppose is something deep in HS' basic code) and since Wild as never been considered by Team 5 they will simply keep ignoring it.

    The only times they've done something Wild-related, they've overkilled Raza the Chained and stealth-buffed Naga Sea Witch, so probably is better if Team 5 keep ignoring Wild before doing other stupid and pointless things.

    "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, and loses his own soul?"

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  • ArchSpike's Avatar
    530 165 Posts Joined 06/24/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Resurrection should bring back EXACTLY the body that died, AND remove it from the Ress pool (until it dies again).

    That's the first and foremost step to apply, and tbh, how it should have always worked in a world that makes sense.

    I agree to this. This kind of mechanic is already in the game with Kangor's Endless Army - making Resurrect and Eternal Servitude bring back a minion with all its enchantments would mean that if you cheat out 1/1 lich king, you can only bring back that 1/1 version of it.

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  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From Zertanix

    Even now when Big priest is a huge issue, Blizzard prints Plague of Death. That show they are not really looking into ways to solve Big Priest problem and that they only care for standard where priest is arguably worst class.

     

    Plague of Death doesn't affect big priest though.

    @Kaladin on the Vargoth nerf: Just give it "Deathrattle: return this to your hand." like Anub'arak.

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  • AbusingKel's Avatar
    HearthStationeer 785 293 Posts Joined 02/02/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Resurrection should bring back EXACTLY the body that died, AND remove it from the Ress pool (until it dies again).

    That's the first and foremost step to apply, and tbh, how it should have always worked in a world that makes sense.

    That would do nicely. Barnes is a moot point with all the cheat and rez options and the addition of Convincing Infiltrator as a cheap taunt/removal minion.  

    Now you kids are probably saying to yourselves, "Hey Matt, how can we get back on the right track?" 

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  • kaladin's Avatar
    365 396 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
    Quote From Zertanix

    Even now when Big priest is a huge issue, Blizzard prints Plague of Death. That show they are not really looking into ways to solve Big Priest problem and that they only care for standard where priest is arguably worst class.

     

    Plague of Death doesn't affect big priest though.

    @Kaladin on the Vargoth nerf: Just give it "Deathrattle: return this to your hand." like Anub'arak.

    The point is not to return it to your hand, but to prevent it from ever actually dying.

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  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From kaladin
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
    Quote From Zertanix

    Even now when Big priest is a huge issue, Blizzard prints Plague of Death. That show they are not really looking into ways to solve Big Priest problem and that they only care for standard where priest is arguably worst class.

     

    Plague of Death doesn't affect big priest though.

    @Kaladin on the Vargoth nerf: Just give it "Deathrattle: return this to your hand." like Anub'arak.

    The point is not to return it to your hand, but to prevent it from ever actually dying.

    Does Anub'arak actually die? Despite triggering on Deathrattle I never tested it or saw it.

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  • kaladin's Avatar
    365 396 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
    Quote From kaladin
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
    Quote From Zertanix

    Even now when Big priest is a huge issue, Blizzard prints Plague of Death. That show they are not really looking into ways to solve Big Priest problem and that they only care for standard where priest is arguably worst class.

     

    Plague of Death doesn't affect big priest though.

    @Kaladin on the Vargoth nerf: Just give it "Deathrattle: return this to your hand." like Anub'arak.

    The point is not to return it to your hand, but to prevent it from ever actually dying.

    Does Anub'arak actually die? Despite triggering on Deathrattle I never tested it or saw it.

    Yes.  In a perfect world, you could run a deck with Anubrak and N'Zoth and get six Anubraks. 

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  • lMarcusl's Avatar
    390 386 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    I concur with RavenSunHS, up to a point. I think all that needs to be done about the res mechanic is simply consider "copies" their own separate cards, i.e. a 5/5 copy of a minion is just that, a minion token with 5/5 stats and the text of the minion you copied, not the original minion with a debuff on it. That way, when a minion gets ressed, it would summon the copy. This would directly disincentivise the use of Barnes, as all he'd be doing is slapping 1/1s into your res pool, and would overall downpower the deck greatly as the opponent would have to actually play or pull the minions from deck with Y'Shaarj to get a full sized body into the res pool. No more 4/8s on turn 4-5, they'll be 1/1s. After Shadow Essence, 5/5s. Much more manageable and easier to kill in the early game, while also downpowering the deck in the late game, as the mass res spells would pick from the full pool. A spellstone could give them a bunch of 1/1s and 5/5s for you to comfortably trade into and their biggest swing spell is gone. Plus, many of the minions would be within range of many AoE mid-game clears, so that control can actually start being a thing again.

    At the height of my frustration with Res Priest, I tried playing the deck myself to figure out how to beat them and where their biggest weak points lie and Barnes is by far the biggest culprit. It is SO easy to get completely run over by even a midrangy or combo deck if you don't get the insane pressure out of Barnes highrolls. In most games where I was under pressure, even Shadow Essense tended to be too slow or return inconsistent results (if you didn't get Obsidian Statue, and even then you die to silence). If Barnes gets butchered, in whichever way it takes, the deck's winrate will tank hard. And if the winrate tanks hard, the popularity of the deck will too. I'm ok with super value focused Res Priest existing as a niche deck, it just has to not be the go-to for winrate, as it is now. Hitting the res mechanic or Barnes directly is a must. And most importantly, hitting the res mechanic in this way really only nerfs Res Priest itself, as for example Gul'Dan, Kangor's Endless Army or N'Zoth decks wouldn't get impacted, since they play their minions full sized. I think restricting the res pool to only ever summon a single copy of a minion, so that you cannot resummon multiple Statues off of one dead Statue etc., would hit too many other, otherwise interesting and fun decks that use resurrection mechanics.

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  • kaladin's Avatar
    365 396 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    All that would need to be done is make "1/1 copy" mean "1/1 which has the same text as a minion in your deck" and not "exact copy who's stats have been changed to 1/1."

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  • Alfi's Avatar
    Devoted Academic 1790 1375 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    Maybe a mechanical change: Ressurect effects should remove the minion from resurrect pool and the ressurected minion will not enter the ressurečt pool, so every minion can be resurected only once.

    -=alfi=-

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  • lMarcusl's Avatar
    390 386 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From Alfi

    Maybe a mechanical change: Ressurect effects should remove the minion from resurrect pool and the ressurected minion will not enter the ressurečt pool, so every minion can be resurected only once.

    I like the idea of a graveyard from Magic, but that change does nothing to address the issue of 4/8 Obsidian Statues, full sized Y'sharrj or Lich King hitting the board on turns 4-6. At that point it does not matter they can't res another one until the first one dies. You'd have to be able to kill the first one, and even if you can, your game is over. Regardless of what deck you're playing (Combo, Midrange, Aggro, Control) you just lost; they stabilised and it will only keep getting worse from there.

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  • ElSabidon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1030 685 Posts Joined 06/07/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago

    Off the top of my head, Bernes' change should still be summoning itself as a 1/1 actor with the text of a minion as the actor's effect. The resurrect pool becomes objectively worse until Shadow Essence comes into play. If Resurrect Priest didn't continue getting more and more tools and stay as a small anti-control gimmick, that would have been more than enough.

    The issue is that Priest keeps getting those tools as resurrection was considered a class identity (good job putting yourselves in a corner there, Blizzard). So, just changing one card makes it hard to actually impact the archetype, which is why I believe the resurect should count ALL minions that died in the game (incluing your opponent's). That does pose a problem, though: the deck becomes absolute trash, because it loses too much reliability. So, with the archetype itself changed, here's what  I would do to give the deck some consistency back:

    Resurrect - Effectively the card gets nerfed, being able to summon any minion. And it should stay that way as a baeline for the archetype (or make it one mana and getting it of full busted mode if that fancies you).

    Eternal Servitude and Lesser Diamond Spellstone - Force to summoning 5-cost and more. These cards should be powerful and should be the play around for the deck. And this way you can actually consistently use their effects on powerful opposing minions, giving you other options for that specific game state. Oh, and it as the added benefit of dodging Archmage Vargoth.

    Mass Resurrection - Summon 3 DIFFERENT friendly minions that died this game. No more 3 The Lich Kings next to each other (doesn't that go agianst the WoW lore or something, the idea of multiple Lich Kings at one time?). This also allows Archmage Vargoth to still be a thing in the deck, but it bacomes much less of a restrictive card as this is the only mass summoning tool that actually targets him.

    Onyx Bishop - Make it either a 4 drop able to summon any minion or remains a 5 drop summoning only friendly ones, as it stands right now.

    Catrina Muerte - This is THE toughest one: how to change the card to still be a play around in the deck without making it busted. I guess giving it the Eternal Servitude/ Lesser Diamond Spellstone treatment can work, but it becomes too repetitive.

    The bottom line is that this way, the resurrection can still be a thing, and it also allows Blizzard to restrict its power in more original ways (like creating card that resurrect minions with a certain attack, health or mana costs, or maybe a ressurect card that targets only Deathrattle minions).

    Rating cards on coolness factor rather than predicting power because I like screwing up rating averages (and because I suck at predicting real power levels, but we'll ignore that LUL)
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  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From ElSabidon

    That does pose a problem, though: the deck becomes absolute trash, because it loses too much reliability. So, with the archetype itself changed, here's what  I would do to give the deck some consistency back:

    How is this a problem again? Blizzard had no problems with butchering giants warlock and combo druid. Why should big priest be an exception? Because it requires even less thought to play compared to those other two, which results to shitty players flocking to it en masse?

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