Mechwarper needs a nerf

  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    In Wild, you are either Mech, or Secret, or Reno (yes, yes, i know it is not the whole picture, but easily more than half of it).

    With Mechs being by far the most popular and effective solution.

    Why?

    Because other than solid per se, they are extremely punishing decks (with very low skill requirement btw, except Warlock): one Mechwarper out of control for one turn, and it's game over pretty fast. Infinitely worse than unnerfed Mana Wyrm, because the warper has synergy to buff its own health.

    Now, i could understand the old, lonely warper, but Galvanizer is a card now. And Magnetic is a keyword too. Together, they lead to ludicrous power turns. Not even Murlocs have so much reciprocal synergy.

    Is it so hard to apply to Mechwarper the same treatment as Summoning Portal?

    PS: 'git gut' and 'play Reno' are stupid comments, just before you think of writing something on that line. I already play double Spellbreaker and i do win my fair amount of games against Mechs. I am just tired of Mechs everywhere that punish you on the spot for one single unlucky turn, where you can't remove all the Mechs on the board.

    PPS: yes Secret Mages are just as popular and strong, but they are one single class. And however broken, however a rush it is is against them, they are not as punishing as Mechs.

     

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  • frosthearth's Avatar
    655 585 Posts Joined 03/18/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Mechwarper just shouldn't exist at all. Same goes for Divine Favor. You can empty your hand for free to create a powerful board very early and then draw a full hand immediately, cheating the two most important resources in the game, mana and card draw.

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  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    git gut, play Reno.

     

    On a serious note, it's my personal opinion that all the cards that have an effect like Mechwarper should receive the Reckless Experimenter/Summoning Portal treatment.

    I personally despise any form of going infinite in the game (being it Deathstalker Rexxar's infinite value, Exodia Mage's infinite damage or SN1P-SN4P Warlock), while I like finite resources and I support each player's ability to use them at their best.

    I don't think Mechwarper will be nerfed soon (it took years for Barnes), but for now I at least expect less Mech support in the next expansions

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 2010 4741 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    sounds reasonable honestly.

    generally cards that reduce other cards' mana costs should never go lower than 1 because of OTK shenanignas.

    Mechwarper is simply an outdated concept from a time where powerlevels were much lower and synergy was scarce.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    2
  • KANSAS's Avatar
    Old God Fanatic 1745 2912 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Avalon

    git gut, play Reno.

     

    On a serious note, it's my personal opinion that all the cards that have an effect like Mechwarper should receive the Reckless Experimenter/Summoning Portal treatment.

    I personally despise any form of going infinite in the game (being it Deathstalker Rexxar's infinite value, Exodia Mage's infinite damage or SN1P-SN4P Warlock), while I like finite resources and I support each player's ability to use them at their best.

    I don't think Mechwarper will be nerfed soon (it took years for Barnes), but for now I at least expect less Mech support in the next expansions

    whats interesting to me is that Summoning Portal reads "minions cost (2) less but not less than (1)" but Reckless Experimenter has the 'can't be reduced below (1)' in her reminder text, why?

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

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  • Fluxflashor's Avatar
    CEO 2005 3060 Posts Joined 10/19/2018
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    I suspect the reason Reckless Experimenter is worded that way is due to the condition that the cards die at end of turn. It would feel a bit lengthy if it was all in one sentence, though, I suspect there is a way around that.

    Mechwarper though, it definitely feels problematic at times and restricts future design space of mechs - oh wait Blizzard doesn't care that much about wild. I could get behind changing the card to be worded like Summoning Portal. Still would definitely have its use cases!

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    0
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    Mechwarper is simply an outdated concept from a time where powerlevels were much lower and synergy was scarce.

    I think that Goblins vs Gnomes cards are nowadays either straight trash of broken: see Mechwarper, Metaltooth Leaper, Quartermaster, Muster for Battle or Mal'Ganis.

    Probably the card pool was so little at the time that even insane effects weren't as game deciding as they are now, but I may be wrong since I wasn't playing the game back in 2014

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

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    -1
  • Painkiller1724's Avatar
    200 132 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    In Wild, you are either Mech, or Secret, or Reno (yes, yes, i know it is not the whole picture, but easily more than half of it).

    With Mechs being by far the most popular and effective solution.

    Why?

    Because other than solid per se, they are extremely punishing decks (with very low skill requirement btw, except Warlock): one Mechwarper out of control for one turn, and it's game over pretty fast. Infinitely worse than unnerfed Mana Wyrm, because the warper has synergy to buff its own health.

    Now, i could understand the old, lonely warper, but Galvanizer is a card now. And Magnetic is a keyword too. Together, they lead to ludicrous power turns. Not even Murlocs have so much reciprocal synergy.

    Is it so hard to apply to Mechwarper the same treatment as Summoning Portal?

    PS: 'git gut' and 'play Reno' are stupid comments, just before you think of writing something on that line. I already play double Spellbreaker and i do win my fair amount of games against Mechs. I am just tired of Mechs everywhere that punish you on the spot for one single unlucky turn, where you can't remove all the Mechs on the board.

    PPS: yes Secret Mages are just as popular and strong, but they are one single class. And however broken, however a rush it is is against them, they are not as punishing as Mechs.

     

    Don't worry, man! You're not on hearthpwn, so you'll probably not see childish replies to a legitimate request. 

    I too feel that the combination of Galvanizer and Mechwarper is very unfair.

    But, if (a big IF) they do something about it, they will only change this card if the warlock combo (Summoning Portal, S1NP-SN4P) gets out of hand, not because of paladin or hunter...

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  • Iplaywhite's Avatar
    Academy Sleuth 405 143 Posts Joined 06/10/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    Mechwarper is simply an outdated concept from a time where powerlevels were much lower and synergy was scarce.

    I think that Goblins vs Gnomes cards are nowadays either straight trash of broken: see Mechwarper, Metaltooth Leaper, Quartermaster, Muster for Battle or Mal'Ganis.

    Probably the card pool was so little at the time that even insane effects weren't as game deciding as they are now, but I may be wrong since I wasn't playing the game back in 2014

    Coin Quartermaster on 4 was usually a game decider if you were able to keep 3 recruits alive. argent squire into minibot/3/2knife juggler into muster into coin Qmaster very powerful 

    the rest you are correct, lacked enough synergy at the time.

    "Soon we must all make the choice between what is right and what is easy"

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  • Lightspoon's Avatar
    Merfolk 495 405 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    The biggest concern with the actual situation of Mechwarper is that it will drastically limit design space for future mech to be printed, because the Magnetic ability allows it to easily stick on the board since the early turn of a match. If that happens, usually the snowballing will close the game very fast making at last unpleasant to face it.

    Probably a nerf in the form a making it the same as Summoning Portal, as suggested by RavenSun, may be the most straightforward solution.

    "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, and loses his own soul?"

    1
  • Synesthesy's Avatar
    240 142 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    But the last time I read a meta report for wild, it said that mech decks aren't that good at all....

     

    Ok, I'll argument it. My opinion is A) mech hunter and mech paladin aren't anything strange for the usual wild meta B) mechwarper isn't that strong alone, is the tribal mech synergy that it is, and I feel it's right this way. Expecially because it's a cross class engine, something that this game is missing more expansion after expansion.

    As Avalon pointend out, only card with very good effect still survives from the older sets. This is why Mech hunter and mech paladin are good, while mech mage isn't anywhere to be seen. I don't think it's correct to nerf old cards to open space, because that is the meaning of standard, not wild. Wild should nerf cards only when they are REALLY problematics.

    Last but not least, a nerf to mechwarper like summoning portal would do too much harm to the card, because you want to discount cheap cards, so very often the 0 mana can be game changing. I don't know if I would play him after the nerf.

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  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Synesthesy

    But the last time I read a meta report for wild, it said that mech decks aren't that good at all....

    I really don't want to sound arrogant, but Tempostorm doesn't even consider Pirate Warrior to be viable, while it's still able to tear apart most of today's decks

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

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    3
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    My point was not (necessarily) opening new design space, but limiting the insane snowball power of Mechs, currently apparent in Hunter, but even moreso in Paladin (with all the insane draw power they have).

    Now, more specifically, i do not want to hit Combo Mech Warlock (because the deck has nearly all the vulnerabilities of a Combo deck, but i may be wrong on this; maybe i just play favored decks against them), and i can't be sure my proposed nerf is the best one overall.

    What i know for sure is that the current snowball power of Mechs feels unfair. Broken, not just Wildly powerful.

    The 0-mana being game changing is exactly what needs to be nerfed in some way, and with all due respect, the fact you would still play it or not is an insufficient argument per se.

    And Secret Mage powerlevel has nothing to do with that.

     

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  • Painkiller1724's Avatar
    200 132 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From Synesthesy

    But the last time I read a meta report for wild, it said that mech decks aren't that good at all....

    I really don't want to sound arrogant, but Tempostorm doesn't even consider Pirate Warrior to be viable, while it's still able to tear apart most of today's decks

    Indeed. 

    The only reliable info on wild meta come from hsreplay.net and vicioussyndicate.com. 

    The last report by VS was posted 2 months ago, before Barnes nerf...

    In hsreplay, when you filter to legend only, look at what decks appear there (and take a look at their WR): 1 - Mech/hand-buff paladin - 54,9% WR, 380 replays; 2 - SN1P-SN4P/Mecha'Thun Warlock - 59,6% WR, 250 replays. 

    (Sorry, couldn't paste the picture, it is not working on my mobile)

     

    1
  • LyraSilvertongue's Avatar
    360 383 Posts Joined 06/01/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Wild control decks have single cards that warp the entire control match-up (Gul'Dan, Jaina, & Rexxar) for great examples. So I see why aggro is not allowed equally powerful tools for their own playstyle.

    Plus, my favorite deck is the one in the sig, which is not some tier net deck. I'm not in favor of killing fun decks in some attempt at nerfing a non-tier 0 deck in wild of all formats. Nerfs in wild are almost always exclusively to knock an entire game warping deck out of tier 0 status, not standard where any deck that is overplayed is DoA.

    0
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 2010 4741 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    Mechwarper is simply an outdated concept from a time where powerlevels were much lower and synergy was scarce.

    I think that Goblins vs Gnomes cards are nowadays either straight trash of broken: see Mechwarper, Metaltooth Leaper, Quartermaster, Muster for Battle or Mal'Ganis.

    Probably the card pool was so little at the time that even insane effects weren't as game deciding as they are now, but I may be wrong since I wasn't playing the game back in 2014

    oh no they were definitely broken then as well, but as you say, the card pool was lower so it just didn't really stick out as much. You basically had some cards that were good and some that weren't, not enough material to really develop a scale.

    There'S a reason why Dr. Boom used to be the best legendary in the game without contest while nowadays there are so many more powerful things you can do before turn 7.

    it was period of experimentation and figuring out boundaries. They just threw shit at a wall to see what stuck.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    0
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Painkiller1724
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From Synesthesy

    But the last time I read a meta report for wild, it said that mech decks aren't that good at all....

    I really don't want to sound arrogant, but Tempostorm doesn't even consider Pirate Warrior to be viable, while it's still able to tear apart most of today's decks

    Indeed. 

    The only reliable info on wild meta come from hsreplay.net and vicioussyndicate.com. 

    The last report by VS was posted 2 months ago, before Barnes nerf...

    In hsreplay, when you filter to legend only, look at what decks appear there (and take a look at their WR): 1 - Mech/hand-buff paladin - 54,9% WR, 380 replays; 2 - SN1P-SN4P/Mecha'Thun Warlock - 59,6% WR, 250 replays. 

    (Sorry, couldn't paste the picture, it is not working on my mobile)

     

    ViciousSyndicate are actually releasing another wild meta report tomorrow. So we'll see who the top deck is.

    Agreed that Tempostorm's meta snapshots are ridiculous, for both standard and wild.

    There's a third option for wild meta snapshots though, and I'd say they're fairly accurate: team Rankstar. Created by some of the actual good wild players (RenoJackson for instance). They release snapshots on a (bi-)monthly basis.

     

    On topic: Agreed. Blizzard themselves said they would keep an eye on Mechwarper. Well Blizzard, it's time. Mech paladin and Sn1p-Sn4p warlock are unfun tier 1 decks which both can easily snowball out of control from turn 3-4 onwards.

     

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  • Synesthesy's Avatar
    240 142 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 5 months ago

    Actually I too prefer VS to tempostorm, but I like to read tempostorm too to get more ideas... And as other said, VS didn't wrote their report yet.

    And I'll add something, to this kind of comment:

    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From Synesthesy

    But the last time I read a meta report for wild, it said that mech decks aren't that good at all....

    I really don't want to sound arrogant, but Tempostorm doesn't even consider Pirate Warrior to be viable, while it's still able to tear apart most of today's decks

    I totally agree with you, and you aren't arrogant at all.

    My thought, my experience is that in wild there are a lot of viable deck, and there isn't out of there a real meta list that is complete. This because there is a high number of powerfull deck that aren't played enough to be shown in that kind of meta report based on numbers, on the most played decks.

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 880 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago
    Quote From doingtheobvious

    I know I was talking about it and kind of vague, but what I meant by a readjustment to Mechwarper is something akin to this.

    No fuss, no muss. Still good for mech lists but reigns in on the Snip Snap over performance. 

    This is insufficient both for current purposes (Paladin unaffected) and future ones.

    Also, this is OT against my own thread, but as i said elsewhere, Secret Mage is a problem too, and they are as punishing, contrarily to what i said in my OP.

    In general, cards that bring OTHER cards to (0) IN THE SAME TURN are a huge flaw in this game.

    (On the other hand, cards like Emperor Thaurissan and Dread Corsair are safe).

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