Shaman Quest Nerf - Place your Bets!

  • ArngrimUndying's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 405 549 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    Will preface by saying: this isn't a salt thread; I'm not a big ladder player and I don't actually see many Quest Shamans in Casual (thank the freaking lord). I'm genuinely asking for people's thoughts and opinions.

    Okay so every knows it's been Evolve/Quest Shamanstone since the Halloween event, and now (from obviously just 1 day's data) it seems Quest Shaman is somehow even stronger with the ability to QUADRUPLE-Invoke with Corrupt Elementalist and to Summon 4 8/8s when actually playing Galakrond. And that's on top of everything else still in tact from the deck. 

    So: I (and I assume many others) are rightfully expecting a nerf. So many questions are:

    1. Do YOU think a nerf is warranted/coming?

    2. What will it look like?

    For me, yes I think warranted and coming. Even hyper aggro decks struggle against this deck because it's a weird mix of both aggro, tempo, and token. I would be shocked if, after all Blizz heard/saw about Evolve taking over the game for the last two months, they'd let ANOTHER insane Shaman deck rule until rotation - which, as I'll point out, WON'T actually hurt the deck that much! What's rotating that the deck uses? Lifedrinker - that's about it.

    As to what the nerf would look like: there I'm conflicted. My bet is - as much as Blizz hate to nerf Legendaries if they can avoid (thinking about when they changed the lifesteal card instead of Kingsbane itself - they have to hit the quest itself. Any one tiny piece won't be enough to stymie the deck at all. So what would that look like? They almost certainly won't change the cost since Hero Powers are fairly static at 2. The three most obvious/likely options would be:

    a. Increase the requirement - instead of play 6 battlecries, maybe change it to 10. or 12. 8 won't make any difference to a deck with as many cheap battlecries/2 dedicated lackey generators. This is my guess and I think the most likely to happen - slow the reward down and the deck would get countered by hyper aggro at least.

    b. Change the mechanic of the reward - your NEXT Battlecry is played twice instead of all the rest for the turn. I still think this will be OP because generally you only really NEED one doubled-up battlecry per turn to wreak havoc, but seems a fair guess.

    c. Early rotation - like Genn and Baku they might just decide to rotate the quest early. I think this is the "nuclear option" and least likely, but if playtesting shows that no "good" nerf exists then it's certainly not an unprecedented move.

    So - what does everyone else think?

    0
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Swamp 665 1114 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    Shaman as a clas will be nerfed in some way, I'm just not sure it's gonna be the Quest.

    Mogu Fleshshaper (which hasn't gotten any weaker) was on the watchlist

    Galakrond's Battlecry might be nerfed to summon an increasing number of 4/4s (1,2,4) instead of scaling up two.

    The Quest itself might be nerfed to increase the requirement given how easily it is completed. However, I'm not sure if that really changes anything (anyone remember Quest Rogue).

    The rotation will do its part (without Shudderwock and LIfedrinker the deck won't nearly do as well in any given context), but overall the big tempo swings are just too much in relation to the already tempo focusseed gameplan.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    2
  • Marega's Avatar 275 349 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    I think they will wait to see how the meta shapes up. Yes shaman will be strong but if theres like 3 or 4 at the top i guess it evens out.

     

    The mogu minion might be an issue but if things are stable they just might wait for shudder and life drinker to rotate. Honestly galakrond battlecry depends on the invoke cards and it rarely has a curve active. The problem is shuddeewock to play it again plus kronx that gets the devastation active and u can seriously highroll.

    0
  • Painkiller1724's Avatar 155 127 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From Marega

    I think they will wait to see how the meta shapes up. Yes shaman will be strong but if theres like 3 or 4 at the top i guess it evens out.

     

    The mogu minion might be an issue but if things are stable they just might wait for shudder and life drinker to rotate. Honestly galakrond battlecry depends on the invoke cards and it rarely has a curve active. The problem is shuddeewock to play it again plus kronx that gets the devastation active and u can seriously highroll.

    Yes! It's too soon, Majordomo!

    People are still experimenting the new cards. In one or two weeks they will get tired and just try to counter that deck. If nobody finds a way through, then the nerfs will come. If this happens, my guess is that it will follow the same path as the Caverns Bellow; i.e. first they will increase the quest activation requirement (like 8 battlecry cards), then it won't suffice, then the Hero Power will change to just affect the first battlecry. 

    That's my guess

    3
  • Almaniarra's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 475 812 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    I don't expect any nerfs for this, This deck now farms from greedy decks + Whizbang decks in my opinion. There might be a balance after some time has passed naturally in meta without a nerf.

    I only wait for a Faceless Corruptor or Dragonmaw Poacher change for arena because person who drops one of them early always wins the game for now in arena, no matter how your draft is good. Especially for Faceless Corruptor. A nerf or a ban might be around for arena. Everyone who can draft that card becomes Quest Druid unless you are the luckiest people with a lot of draw and tons of removal.

    -5
  • ArngrimUndying's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 405 549 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From Painkiller1724
    Quote From Marega

    I think they will wait to see how the meta shapes up. Yes shaman will be strong but if theres like 3 or 4 at the top i guess it evens out.

     

    The mogu minion might be an issue but if things are stable they just might wait for shudder and life drinker to rotate. Honestly galakrond battlecry depends on the invoke cards and it rarely has a curve active. The problem is shuddeewock to play it again plus kronx that gets the devastation active and u can seriously highroll.

    Yes! It's too soon, Majordomo!

    People are still experimenting the new cards. In one or two weeks they will get tired and just try to counter that deck. If nobody finds a way through, then the nerfs will come. If this happens, my guess is that it will follow the same path as the Caverns Bellow; i.e. first they will increase the quest activation requirement (like 8 battlecry cards), then it won't suffice, then the Hero Power will change to just affect the first battlecry. 

    That's my guess

    That's a good guess - a wave of sequentially ineffectual nerfs like Caverns Below.

    0
  • AliRadicali's Avatar 425 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it turns out after further deck refinement that galakrond shaman and quest-shaman work better as individual decks rather than a weird hybrid. Since the quest autocompletes rather than giving you a quest reward like the Un'goro quests, you can't hold your Heart of Vir'naal until after playing Galakrond, so you'd be sacrificing all that quest progression for a pair of 8/8s. Seems like a bad deal.

     

    It's day 1 guys.

    7
  • ArngrimUndying's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 405 549 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From Marega

    I think they will wait to see how the meta shapes up. Yes shaman will be strong but if theres like 3 or 4 at the top i guess it evens out.

     

    The mogu minion might be an issue but if things are stable they just might wait for shudder and life drinker to rotate. Honestly galakrond battlecry depends on the invoke cards and it rarely has a curve active. The problem is shuddeewock to play it again plus kronx that gets the devastation active and u can seriously highroll.

    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    Shaman as a clas will be nerfed in some way, I'm just not sure it's gonna be the Quest.

    Mogu Fleshshaper (which hasn't gotten any weaker) was on the watchlist

    Galakrond's Battlecry might be nerfed to summon an increasing number of 4/4s (1,2,4) instead of scaling up two.

    The Quest itself might be nerfed to increase the requirement given how easily it is completed. However, I'm not sure if that really changes anything (anyone remember Quest Rogue).

    The rotation will do its part (without Shudderwock and LIfedrinker the deck won't nearly do as well in any given context), but overall the big tempo swings are just too much in relation to the already tempo focusseed gameplan.

    It's curious to me that you both mention Mogu and Shudderwock since, in my (admittedly limited play against them), Shudderwock hasn't even come into play AT ALL. The game is over long before the opponent needs it. Ditto for playing Galakrond itself - all the games I've played against this, the opponent just uses the Invoke to spawn those little elementals, same with Kronx, and then goes nuts. The win condition for the deck isn't a big Shudderwock turn or monster turn 5 evolve as it was the last few months, it's more of a token + spell "grinds you down while constantly flooding the board for virtually free."

    Mogu obviously still a problem but IMO just nerfing Mogu won't affect the power level of the overall quest and all the fun new powerups Galakrond and the Invokers give the deck.

     

    1
  • ArngrimUndying's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 405 549 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From AliRadicali

    I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it turns out after further deck refinement that galakrond shaman and quest-shaman work better as individual decks rather than a weird hybrid. Since the quest autocompletes rather than giving you a quest reward like the Un'goro quests, you can't hold your Heart of Vir'naal until after playing Galakrond, so you'd be sacrificing all that quest progression for a pair of 8/8s. Seems like a bad deal.

     

    It's day 1 guys.

    Yeah I totally get that it's Day 1 so this thread is definitely "I'm bored at work so let's spitball," but for me the genesis of this thread is that Shamanstone has been so oppressive for the last 2 months I was earnestly hoping the deck fell into a bottomless pit and the fact that it obviously still has a ton of strength makes me a sad panda. 

    1
  • Bersak's Avatar 280 220 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    I honestly doubt that the quest will be the main shaman deck. It‘s interaction with Galakrond is mediocre and that’s generally something you don’t see in T1 decks.

    Pure Galakrond however is another story. My impression (Rank 2-1 atm) is that the game starts at turn 1 again. Quest into cable rat has become a pretty slow play. 

    Anyways, shaman as a whole remains the deck to beat and as someone said before, most of the cards (except mainly shudderwock) will Stay for 16 more months. Something will be changed for sure

    Winner winner chicken dinner

    0
  • Xarkkal's Avatar Flamewreathed 545 649 Posts Joined 03/29/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    Shaman is fine.

    The Mogu Fleshshaper is being watched (aka should have already been nerfed). People will start to target shaman and a counter meta will develop. I'm having a positive winrate vs. Shaman with my Dragon Highlander Hunter (see signature).

    -1
  • Snapshot426's Avatar 100 23 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    As much as I want to say that the Shaman quest needs a nerf because I hate seeing every other f**king game at the moment, we need to see in a week or two how the meta turns out. If it turns out that Quest Galakrond Shaman is oppresive and everywhere in a week or two, then it will get nerfed. Blizzard were very quick to respond to nerfing certain cards in the last expansion and I would imagine they would do the same thing this expansion if needed. 

    0
  • Mikwits's Avatar 90 15 Posts Joined 03/29/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From AliRadicali

    I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it turns out after further deck refinement that galakrond shaman and quest-shaman work better as individual decks rather than a weird hybrid. Since the quest autocompletes rather than giving you a quest reward like the Un'goro quests, you can't hold your Heart of Vir'naal until after playing Galakrond, so you'd be sacrificing all that quest progression for a pair of 8/8s. Seems like a bad deal.

     

    It's day 1 guys.

    I've won almost every quest galakrond shamans on my deck without quest. Have lost only those games when they curve invokes, Galakrond and Shudderwock perfectly, and actually won one of those matches with 8 damage Agatha's Scheme from a lackey.

    But yes, the whole class is quite problematic and will be before some kind of nerfs.

    -2
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Swamp 665 1114 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    From what I can gather so far is that Galakrond Shaman without the Quest isn't that overpowered (it's really just the Invoked hero power being really strong, but I can't imagine they#d nerf it unless they just removed the Rush part)

    It's really the combination with the Quest that makes it so broken because

    a) you get so much more early presence via the invoke cards (all of which are battlecries)

    b) even if you don't draw into your Galakrond, you still have the Quest Hero power which will win you the game by itself...until you eventually get Galakrond and blow out your opponent with the massive tempo turn of 4 8/8s....and then still have SHudderwock to do it again.

    We basically have a deck that is strong at any stage of the game and becomes increasingly harder to beat the longer the game goes on.

    Mind Control Tech is still broken so against board focussed decks you basicallly can't pressure them early and you lose.

    Mogu punishes playing the board even further

    They now have enough early pressure to threaten combo decks (or just Quest Druid in general)

     

    The only deck that can beat them on a conceptual level is super hard aggro and super hard control (they do run out of stuff eventually).

    Keep in mind, the deck isn't even refined yet and it's already massively influencing the meta game.

     

    And then ofc there is Faceless Corruptor which is probably the most retarded card ever printed and I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    6
  • Helicon1's Avatar 95 24 Posts Joined 07/10/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    There just seems to be too much synergy with the whole package all together. Shudderwock is a great late game package, the invokes are strong, mogu/evolve is a huge mid-game play, PLUS the Galakrond on top. Something needs to go. Maybe nerf the invokes to 1/1s and nerf Mogu?

    0
  • Sol's Avatar E.V.I.L. Dragon 135 88 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    Maybe there can be a Highlander Paladin deck that utilizes the card that swaps hero power for a turn + Sir Finley of the Sands

    Well it's over

    0
  • JackJimson's Avatar Dragon Scholar 130 67 Posts Joined 11/19/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    Anyone found a counter for shaman yet? 

    He has so many insane cards, not even considering the original core cards (Mogu+mutate, quest, etc.).

    Corrupt Elementalist (5 mana, 7/5 where 4/2 has rush) and Dragon's Pack (5 mana, 10/12 with taunt) give so much value, more so if played on curve.  The 2/1 rushers give so much tempo. Then add that broken Faceless Corruptor card to a deck that run a lot of tokens for more tempo.

    0
  • Tetsuo's Avatar 225 156 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    The deck is strong indeed, but it's still unrefined. Replacing your hero power three times in a game seems clunky. I think a token overload Shaman will emerge in the coming days, one that would take advantage of Vessina, Dragon's Pack, Bloodlust and Storm's Wrath due to the wide boards that the class is capable of creating right now.

    0
  • Ethardoth's Avatar E.V.I.L. Dragon 175 141 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    I agree, combination of Quest and Galakrond feels broken af, really frustrating to play against and everyone playing it. So many powerplays, strong at any stage. Doesn't matter that it's day 1. I would craft it but I expect some kind of nerf designed so you waste your dust, so I'll probably wait.

    0
  • Simner's Avatar 25 1 Posts Joined 12/09/2019
    Posted 2 months, 2 weeks ago

    Honestly I don't think it's terrible. Make invoke not a battlecry but work as its on individual keyword, that will instantly slow down the deck some and not really effect other classes. Would probably push the two decks apart but in honesty that would work out great as normal battlecry shaman without evolve doesn't feel horrible to play against.

    1
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