Shaman Quest Nerf - Place your Bets!

  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    I can't really say that I miss the Evolve Shaman meta, but damn they're really forcing me to.

    BTW: 35 games, 26 Shaman (Rank 4 EU)

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

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  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From AngryShuckie
    Quote From frosthearth

    The quest is not the problem. Before evolve it wasn't among the strongest decks, it was just very popular. Corrupt Elementalist, Dragon's Pack and Mogu Fleshshaper are all potential candidates imo. Not to mention Faceless Corruptor, but that one isn't only shaman's fault.

    Part of the problem with the quest is the 'inevitability factor'. By which I mean it may not have been a problem at the start of SoU, but sooner or later it is bound to either become a problem or forever limit design space.

    The best example of this in the past is Aviana (at 9 mana). No one will say she was a problem in TGT. Even when Kun the Forgotten King turned up in Gadgetzan people would argue they were strong but not a problem. Then, over time druid gets given more effective defensive tools and eventually a meme card is released (Star Aligner) and completely breaks Wild. And this wasn't the 'I hate Big Priest' sort of breaking wild, this was OTK decks routinely killing you on turn 5. There were lots of things arguably at fault there, but as soon as Aviana was printed the game had set off down a path where she was always going to cause a problem some day. It was just a question of when and what pushes it over the edge.

    I personally feel the current version of Corrupt the Waters has the same problem. The fact people are calling it out already is a bad sign, albeit not conclusive by itself. But rather than asking 'is it broken right now?', which is very hard to answer because so much of the class could be considered a problem, I am wondering 'how long will it be before 2 battlecries can be doubled on the same turn that break the game given what else Shaman can do?'

    The shaman quest is so easy to complete with cards you want to use in a deck anyway, and the reward directly buffs the very same cards. All this makes a 1-dimensional deck building 'challenge' with no tension between different parts of your deck that can be used to keep a deck's power in check. All this is compounded by 'battlecry' not actually being an effect but a trigger mechanism, meaning a deck of quest + 29 battlecries can still have all of removal, buffs, board floods, AoE, etc. Basically any spell can be used as a battlecry, so you don't even have to pay a price by making a deck that cannot do something very well.

    tl;dr: the quest might not be a problem right now, but I think it is just too easy to complete and too little price to pay for playing it, meaning one day it is bound to become an issue.

    I disagree with the analogy. Aviana cheats mana, Corrupt the Waters generates value most of the time. Sure, maybe if they print a card that has 'battlecry: reduce the cost of all cards in hand by 1' or something like that, the analogy might hold, but until then you can't really compare the two.

     

    Corrupt the Waters is not a combo card, it doesn't provide inevitability, it just creates lots and lots of value. A better comparison would be Dr. Boom and the other incremental value hero cards.

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  • AngryShuckie's Avatar
    1705 1735 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali
    I disagree with the analogy. Aviana cheats mana, Corrupt the Waters generates value most of the time. Sure, maybe if they print a card that has 'battlecry: reduce the cost of all cards in hand by 1' or something like that, the analogy might hold, but until then you can't really compare the two.

     

    Corrupt the Waters is not a combo card, it doesn't provide inevitability, it just creates lots and lots of value. A better comparison would be Dr. Boom and the other incremental value hero cards.

    While I agree the analogy isn't perfect (they never are, though in this case it was only meant as an example of inevitability rather than as a direct analogy, but regardless...), it is wrong to suggest doubling battlecries does not constitute a combo effect. In fact the Star Aligner deck used Brann Bronzebeard if I recall correctly, which highlights combos are built out of multiple 'non-combo' effects, e.g. dealing damage. If that damage is only 14 then it hurts but it's not super dangerous, but when it is doubled to 28 then that is OTK territory.

    My concerns with the quest are wider than OTKs though. Battlecries can do literally anything, and while shaman has currently not got anything to horrifically abuse it (except perhaps Galakrond...), the potential is there for the future. Plus this is shaman we are talking about, which by the devs' own admission is a jack-of-all-trades class, meaning the battlecries really can go in any direction.

    To be clear, I think doubling most battlecries and even doubling most strings of battlecries is perfectly safe. But if and when it eventually happens it will only take 1 combination to break the game, and then people will blame the new card, even though it is the quest that has enabled it and will sooner or later enable something else too if it isn't changed.

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  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From AngryShuckie
    Quote From AliRadicali
    I disagree with the analogy. Aviana cheats mana, Corrupt the Waters generates value most of the time. Sure, maybe if they print a card that has 'battlecry: reduce the cost of all cards in hand by 1' or something like that, the analogy might hold, but until then you can't really compare the two.

     

    Corrupt the Waters is not a combo card, it doesn't provide inevitability, it just creates lots and lots of value. A better comparison would be Dr. Boom and the other incremental value hero cards.

    While I agree the analogy isn't perfect (they never are, though in this case it was only meant as an example of inevitability rather than as a direct analogy, but regardless...), it is wrong to suggest doubling battlecries does not constitute a combo effect. In fact the Star Aligner deck used Brann Bronzebeard if I recall correctly, which highlights combos are built out of multiple 'non-combo' effects, e.g. dealing damage. If that damage is only 14 then it hurts but it's not super dangerous, but when it is doubled to 28 then that is OTK territory.

    My concerns with the quest are wider than OTKs though. Battlecries can do literally anything, and while shaman has currently not got anything to horrifically abuse it (except perhaps Galakrond...), the potential is there for the future. Plus this is shaman we are talking about, which by the devs' own admission is a jack-of-all-trades class, meaning the battlecries really can go in any direction.

    To be clear, I think doubling most battlecries and even doubling most strings of battlecries is perfectly safe. But if and when it eventually happens it will only take 1 combination to break the game, and then people will blame the new card, even though it is the quest that has enabled it and will sooner or later enable something else too if it isn't changed.

    I don't think it's a very helpful comparison. On the one hand you have cards which basically don't do anything until another card comes along and suddenly enables a busted OTK (like Dark Portal + Sn1p-Sn4p), and on the other hand you have cards that are generically powerful and get more or less strong dependent on what specific battlecries exist in the meta. Getting double value from battlecries turn after turn is powerful, but that type of incremental value is maeasured on an entirely different scale than OTKs.

    Sure, it's possible to come up with a set of battlecries which would constitute an OTK, but until those cards exist that's not the way Corrupt the Waters is being played. I think the manacost is pretty prohibitive in that regard. For comparison, Brann's been around in wild for ages and it's exceedingly rare for him to be part of a broken OTK.

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  • chaosprism's Avatar
    Face Collector 340 83 Posts Joined 03/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    I think myself a few of the new quests in previous expansion (not sidequests in this expansion) happen 1 or 2 counts too soon , I know blizzard said they wanted them to activate mid game and not late game but seriously they're just wrong at the count they have them on.

    paladin,shaman, rogue, priest:  considering how overpowering they are when they happen.

    Warlock draw quest could actually happen earlier (by about 2 counts)

    hunter (ramkhen), warrior (hack system) and mage(spell quest) seem about right.

     

     

     

     

     

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  • EpicHercules's Avatar
    Jaina 270 59 Posts Joined 06/21/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    Honestly, I think one of the problems is that there's no real way to counter battlecries in the game at the moment. Sure you can force out a random minion with Hecklebot or Duel!, but otherwise the best you can hope for is to play around battlecries whenever possible. It would almost be worth them printing a tech card to counter opponents' battlecries before they happen to restrict the power of classes like Shaman that have so many impactful ones available.

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  • Wendeee's Avatar
    HearthStationeer 490 248 Posts Joined 03/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    I do what I must, when I must. Know this well.

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  • AngryShuckie's Avatar
    1705 1735 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali
     

    Sure, it's possible to come up with a set of battlecries which would constitute an OTK, but until those cards exist that's not the way Corrupt the Waters is being played. I think the manacost is pretty prohibitive in that regard. For comparison, Brann's been around in wild for ages and it's exceedingly rare for him to be part of a broken OTK.

    I agree how the quest is played now may be frustrating to many but isn't inherently problematic. It is the 'until those cards exist' part that I am more bothered by, because they can exist. However, I am open to the idea that it is actually good game design to have the quest as it is until that time comes, and then change it when necessary. Almost like exploiting the digital format of HS to make cards that limit design space, then change them then you want to explore that design space.

    The differences with Brann are that:

    1. A 2 mana hero power is cheaper than a a 3 mana minion. You can even use something like Fencing Coach to set the effect cost to 0 when you need it (I am assuming it will be in wild by the time the problem comes).
    2. A hero power is always there, and you don't need to keep hold of a card in hand ready for the combo.

    So the quest is easier to abuse than Brann in shaman. Brann being neutral is really the only upside it has.

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  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    I'm not a caps lock person, but I just woke up and read about it so...

    THEY'RE COMING THEY'RE COMING THE NERFS ARE COMING WOOOHOOOOOOOOO

    Now we just have to hope that they actually know what to address: I really don't want these balance changes to be meaningless or, worse, to shift the meta to "insert class"-stone.

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

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    0
  • Dragonsscars's Avatar
    205 45 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    I'm waiting for nerf to warrior

    For the king for the land for the mountains, For the green valleys where dragons fly, For the glory the power to win the black Lord

    THE LIGHT WILL PREVAIL, HENCE WISDOM IS GOLD

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 2010 4741 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From Avalon

    I'm not a caps lock person, but I just woke up and read about it so...

    THEY'RE COMING THEY'RE COMING THE NERFS ARE COMING WOOOHOOOOOOOOO

    Now we just have to hope that they actually know what to address: I really don't want these balance changes to be meaningless or, worse, to shift the meta to "insert class"-stone.

    oh wow that was really fast. Goes to show how utterly out of line Shaman is if they already decided to hit it after one week.

     

    Really liking this though, makes me think we might get regular balance patches in the future.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    0
  • frosthearth's Avatar
    655 585 Posts Joined 03/18/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    I just hope I don't have to see faceless corruptor in every single deck again.

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  • Haussenfuss's Avatar
    405 73 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    These are my guesses regarding the upcoming nerfs - 

    Shaman -

    Corrupt the Waters will require more than six Battlecries to trigger.

    Galakrond will only summon a single 2/2, 4/4 or 8/8 with Rush.

    The new "Feral Spirit" will cost more, or the buff will be reduced.

    Corrupt Elementalist will cost more, or will only Invoke once.

    Everything Else -

    Faceless Corruptor will cost more.

    My guesses as to stuff that won't be nerfed, but should -

    The new "Patches" - I forget the name - will likely dominate the post-nerf meta if they don't pre-nerf it. I'm guessing they won't. It's already given Pirate Warrior a +11% win-rate buff in Wild, making it the top deck in the format, previously Tier 4. Hoard Pillager is also a problem in Wild - its effect is essentially the same as the new Pure Paladin dude, but without any deck-building restrictions . . . again, I don't think they'll nerf it, but I suspect the deck will dominate Standard if they don't pre-emptively address it, as HSReplays is currently tracking Pirate Warrior with over a 60% win-rate against non-Shaman decks.

    We'll see on Tuesday, I suppose . . .

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  • DoubleSummon's Avatar
    Ancestral Recall 1585 2271 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I don't expect any nerfs for this, This deck now farms from greedy decks + Whizbang decks in my opinion. There might be a balance after some time has passed naturally in meta without a nerf.

    I only wait for a Faceless Corruptor or Dragonmaw Poacher change for arena because person who drops one of them early always wins the game for now in arena, no matter how your draft is good. Especially for Faceless Corruptor. A nerf or a ban might be around for arena. Everyone who can draft that card becomes Quest Druid unless you are the luckiest people with a lot of draw and tons of removal.

    Poacher was already removed from the draft, not sure about corrupt or but I expect a nerf next week. 

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  • PopeNeia's Avatar
    Darkmaster 640 841 Posts Joined 07/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    Corrupter can still be drafted

    This ain't no place for a hero

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  • Zwane's Avatar
    Wizard 320 423 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    My 2cents:

    I think you need a lot of changes to nerf a class that has double battlecries operational from turn 4/5;

    The mass of minions/stats Shaman can output using new cards, Galakrond, quest complete etc is simply overwhelming, comparable to mage after turn 5, but the mage needs to "give up/do damage control" on early turns to be able to do that, while Shaman can start pushing from turn 1 with lackeys etc.

    Add to that the rush/taunts + mind control tech and you basically have a deck that has simply no weaknesses and out-values all others.

    So what I expect is: either Shaman will get a small nerf and we will still have a very strong shaman meta but not as bad as it is now, but most players will still feel bad about it;

    or they really kill it but I actually do not see how except if they and change the quest reward and change the Galakrond reward.

    I had fun the first day but Shaman and Pirate Warrior are not fun to play against; Shaman shits out wave after wave of big boards while Pirate Warrior only bashes face for 6 turns (kind of like Mech Hunter did; instead of magnetize they use a weapon) and then either they win or they run out of steam before you die and then you win. A bit boring to my taste. All other matchups are fine and more or less balanced. I also think this warrior weapon needs a nerf, especially since you can re-equip it now. Its basically a continuous draw engine without cost. Only way to win that is to A) survive the onslaught or B) heavily tech for weapon removal (or use that steal weapon minion and add some pirates to your deck as well).

    2
  • Avalon's Avatar
    Salty Dog 1550 2105 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Avalon

    I'm not a caps lock person, but I just woke up and read about it so...

    THEY'RE COMING THEY'RE COMING THE NERFS ARE COMING WOOOHOOOOOOOOO

    Now we just have to hope that they actually know what to address: I really don't want these balance changes to be meaningless or, worse, to shift the meta to "insert class"-stone.

    oh wow that was really fast. Goes to show how utterly out of line Shaman is if they already decided to hit it after one week.

     

    Really liking this though, makes me think we might get regular balance patches in the future.

    To be fair this is kind of a disperate situation: we are 3 days from the expansion release and literally half of Standard Ladder is Shaman, which is even worse than Doom in the Tomb meta.

    I don't think there hasn't been a worse meta, but certainly not a more one-sided one.

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
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    1
  • Hydrafrog's Avatar
    Gul'dan 1840 3268 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From ShotgunSoul
    Quote From Hydrafrog

    the nerf, if any , will end up being something inconsequential to the over all arch of Shaman.  Honestly, they'd to best by dealing with it over the next 4 months until the next expansion kicks out the Witchwood cycle. 

    You don't want to kill interest in the game by NOT addressing something that annoys the fanbase for months. If the successors to the Ben Brode regime have a positive against the founder, its that they have been quicker to address a problem card or class.

    Hearthstone has been lucky recently. Battlegrounds took off while the meta staled because they let an experiment (bring back old cards like N'zoth) go on too long. If Hearthstone Battlegrounds hadn't been released, there'd be a significant increase in talk about "the death of Hearthstone because of N'zoth and evolve."

    They've gotten great reviews on cards and interest in the Year of the Dragon, but if they let the game turn into Shamanstone or Pirate Warrior 2: Ancharrr Boogaloo, and people who enjoy other decks find it unfun and quit, they'll lose out to other entertainment options, and eventually, another card game.

    HS has been fortunate competitors have failed, and the one that might break Heathstone's hold is still in the works. I don't have interest in Runeterra, but I also think Riot isn't going to blow it like Valve did.

    /conspiracy theory of mine: Blizzard's founder is the voice of Thrall, therefore Shaman must almost always be the OP class

    How does your theory come in to play for the overwhelming rez priest in wild?  Shaman up all you want, Wild is flooded with Rez Priest and I've only been able to consistently beat it with a combo deck that dies to aggro every single time.

    0
  • YJHS2000's Avatar
    Uther 315 119 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago

    Shaman nerfs:

    1. Quest hero power will only affect next battle cry
    2. Galakrond from 7>9 mana, invoke/hero power summons a 1/2 with rush (instead of 2/1)

    Other nerfs:

    1. Faceless corrupter 5>6 mana
    2. Parachute Brigand from 2/2 to 2/1

    Communism is just a red herring

    0
  • Almaniarra's Avatar
    HearthStationeer 950 1465 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 4 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From DoubleSummon
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I don't expect any nerfs for this, This deck now farms from greedy decks + Whizbang decks in my opinion. There might be a balance after some time has passed naturally in meta without a nerf.

    I only wait for a Faceless Corruptor or Dragonmaw Poacher change for arena because person who drops one of them early always wins the game for now in arena, no matter how your draft is good. Especially for Faceless Corruptor. A nerf or a ban might be around for arena. Everyone who can draft that card becomes Quest Druid unless you are the luckiest people with a lot of draw and tons of removal.

    Poacher was already removed from the draft, not sure about corrupt or but I expect a nerf next week. 

    Yeah, I had wrote that before remove announcement so I got what I asked for;

    and still waiting Faceless Corruptor change or a nerf because it also dominates the ladder aswell.

    Unpopular Opinion Incarnate

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