Zephrys: the great fails

  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Welcome to this originally mildly salty thread, turned into a productive one!

    I thought it was pretty fun to mention here all the obvious whiffs of Zephrys the Great, specifing the game context as precisely as possible.

    REMINDER: zephrys the great calculates solutions based exclusively on PUBLIC elements. He does not know the identity of your cards or secrets, nor those of the opponent, but he can see that they are there and their number, plus health, weapons, board.

    Let's gather enough data to improve his code!

    Here i start:

    (10) mana as Valeera the Hollow, with Eviscerate at hand, against Wild Secret Mage, with 2 secrets up (including ice block) and 1hp left:

    i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.

    Only 3 redundant options: Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe. Twice.

    6
  • sinti's Avatar Global Moderator Barrens Sleuth 1850 2410 Posts Joined 10/20/2018
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Because he doesnt operate with information in your hand. He didnt know you had Eviscerate. He only operates with public information, thus information that can be also known to your opponent.

    Core Set 2021 - Year of the GryphonHearthstone Mercenaries
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    9
  • ArngrimUndying's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 505 626 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Similar situation - playing against mage who had 2 or 3 secrets up so Zephrys offered Flare. Figured I'd roll the dice on one of them not being Counterspell, but alas one was so wasted card. I wonder if/how he accounts for the possibilities on secrets?

    1
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From sinti

    Because he doesnt operate with information in your hand. He didnt know you had Eviscerate. He only operates with public information, thus information that can be also known to your opponent.

    The fact the opponent had 2 secrets was public.

    Receiving no tech in 6 cards is a whiff, even if he didn't know i had lethal.

    8
  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1735 2904 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    If you has played eviscerate first then he would have seen the lethal and given you SI:7, or some other from of lethal.

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

    -1
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds

    If you has played eviscerate first then he would have seen the lethal and given you SI:7, or some other from of lethal.

    I would have triggered the ice block. ;)

    Either way, post your whiffs!

    This thread is not about discussing my case, which WAS a whiff no matter what! He's meant to offer the perfect card, and a choice. It's pointless to offer 3 redundant damage cards and no tech. In 6 cards (played him twice).

    0
  • Cleef2's Avatar HearthStationeer 305 167 Posts Joined 04/02/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Yeah you need to know how to play zephrys. He doesn't consider anything in hand. So first playing evisirate and than playing zephrys will give you lethal. Same with the coin. If you have it in hand instead of playing it for mana yet zephrys will not know you have 1 additional mana. It will offer the best card based on board state, health of heroes, and mana available. It does take into account if there are secrets but he won't know which secret it would be (the same as for every other player).

    Hope it helps reduce the salt next time :-) 

    -3
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

    I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

    He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

    And i played him twice.

    This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

    Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

    2
  • sinti's Avatar Global Moderator Barrens Sleuth 1850 2410 Posts Joined 10/20/2018
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

    I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

    He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

    And i played him twice.

    This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

    Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

    No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

    Core Set 2021 - Year of the GryphonHearthstone Mercenaries
    ~ Have an idea? Found a bug? Let us know! ~
    ~ Join us on Discord ~

    -7
  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1735 2904 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From sinti
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

    I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

    He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

    And i played him twice.

    This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

    Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

    No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

    I have played zephrys on several occasions and he offered me a SI:7 Infiltrator, so Zephrys can see secrets, and he can offer you secret removal.

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

    8
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From sinti
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

    I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

    He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

    And i played him twice.

    This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

    Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

    No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

    That is my point: his code is not perfect. 

    He does generally offer tech cards, but in this case he offered only redundant lethal options.

    That is not the optimal choice he is meant to offer.

    A whiff is a whiff. The fact the code whiffs is exactly the point of this thread.

     

    2
  • Painkiller1724's Avatar 200 132 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Do you think this was due to being played in wild?

    I say that because I played two matches yesterday with singleton Hunter (standard) and the opponents had secrets in play and in both occasions, he offered me the Infiltrator... (in one of these instances I was about to kill the opponent anyway)

    That's weird anyway

    0
  • Bersak's Avatar Magma Rager 575 394 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    He certainly can offer secret removal. But:

    - In this specific szenario, he realises that the opponent is at one health, hence he offers damage. He doesn’t consider ice block as an option.

    - Playing Zephrys multiple times doesn’t increase the odds significantly. The only thing that changes is the mana available.

    He is hard coded spotting lethal and in this case he found it. At least he thought so. 

    Now to my own experience. I played against a warlock with Diseased Vulture on turn 4, plus some lackeys on board. I was really hoping for a shadowword pain but didn‘t get it. The best offer he had, was a SI7 Agent though. I guess he doesn‘t consider minions with ongoing effects as high priority to remove

    Winner winner chicken dinner

    8
  • sinti's Avatar Global Moderator Barrens Sleuth 1850 2410 Posts Joined 10/20/2018
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds
    Quote From sinti
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

    I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

    He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

    And i played him twice.

    This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

    Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

    No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

    I have played zephrys on several occasions and he offered me a SI:7 Infiltrator, so Zephrys can see secrets, and he can offer you secret removal.

    Well, then it is a possibility and not a guaranteed outcome, where the latter is a known fact. If we can get info like this in here, im all for it ;-)

    Core Set 2021 - Year of the GryphonHearthstone Mercenaries
    ~ Have an idea? Found a bug? Let us know! ~
    ~ Join us on Discord ~

    0
  • Nuagoo's Avatar 310 76 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Absolutely ignores deathrattles early on. Played against a Expired Merchant turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and wished for silence, however I got Powerword:Shield, Mortal Coil and another card.

    I feel that he overvalues the max mana you have left and doesn't consider deathrattle effects for the mid to long game. (Could've been a VERY different game)

    0
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From sinti
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds
    Quote From sinti
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

    I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

    He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

    And i played him twice.

    This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

    Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

    No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

    I have played zephrys on several occasions and he offered me a SI:7 Infiltrator, so Zephrys can see secrets, and he can offer you secret removal.

    Well, then it is a possibility and not a guaranteed outcome, where the latter is a known fact. If we can get info like this in here, im all for it ;-)

    The secretly subtle point of this thread is to gather enough data to prompt an improvement of his code. 😎

    Indeed, i also thought about Wild mode being a counter-variable.

    Zephrys may have no knowledge of Wild, hence why he does not even think that a tech at that point is a useful option.

    Yet offering 3 redundant options is clearly a bad execution. 

    EDIT: Counterspell is Standard and would have countered ALL the options he offered me. He should definitely be improved as to the diversity of options he can offer.

    3
  • MisterKnott's Avatar 285 83 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I think the answer to the original scenario then is found above: Zephrys is "too" hard coded to offer lethal, since Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate are all literally different flavors of the same thing. (Beyond which, the OP mentioned that this happened twice, so it's actually SIX flavors of the same thing.) If the point of the "Discover" mechanic is meant to be variety, the AI should only offer one of those options, and then provide two other cards for some other scenario that the human player might anticipate but that Zephrys doesn't know.

    If others are willing to look beyond the OP's framing to the broader question, I would be interested in what other scenarios people have seen go awry. One thing I've noticed in playing against Zephrys is what seems like a fairly limited card pool. If I'm a turn away from lethal, my opponent almost always plays Tirion Fordring the same turn as Zephrys. But one thing that the AI clearly doesn't weigh -- but that the human player should -- is that I'm playing Rogue, so have numerous ways to get Tirion out of the way or to ping off his Divine Shield. Sap? Game over. Fan of Knives, Lackeys, SI:7 Agent, whatever. So I'd say there were two separate problems that the Tirion scenario draws out:

    1) Lack of awareness of opponent's class identity. The AI doesn't need to know exactly what cards I'm holding to know whether I'm more or less likely to have answers based purely on the spells available to my class (in Standard at least).

    2) General lack of options. Like I said, Tirion is produced literally every time. But objectively, even something like Khartut Defender something else might be a better option if you're a turn away from certain death. (I mean, even  in the OP's scenario, if the other player was at 1 HP, why even offer Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate? Why not Shiv?) 

    5
  • Xarkkal's Avatar Servant of Illidan 890 1321 Posts Joined 03/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I played him in wild at 6 mana, leaving myself 4 available trying to get a Mass Dispel, Silence or Hex to deal with the Deathlord that I didn't want to pull my Shudderwock. I don't remember the options, but none of them even dealt with the Deathlord at all. 

    It seems deathrattles aren't considered in the AI. 

    1
  • Xarkkal's Avatar Servant of Illidan 890 1321 Posts Joined 03/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From MisterKnott

    I think the answer to the original scenario then is found above: Zephrys is "too" hard coded to offer lethal, since Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate are all literally different flavors of the same thing. (Beyond which, the OP mentioned that this happened twice, so it's actually SIX flavors of the same thing.) If the point of the "Discover" mechanic is meant to be variety, the AI should only offer one of those options, and then provide two other cards for some other scenario that the human player might anticipate but that Zephrys doesn't know.

    If others are willing to look beyond the OP's framing to the broader question, I would be interested in what other scenarios people have seen go awry. One thing I've noticed in playing against Zephrys is what seems like a fairly limited card pool. If I'm a turn away from lethal, my opponent almost always plays Tirion Fordring the same turn as Zephrys. But one thing that the AI clearly doesn't weigh -- but that the human player should -- is that I'm playing Rogue, so have numerous ways to get Tirion out of the way or to ping off his Divine Shield. Sap? Game over. Fan of Knives, Lackeys, SI:7 Agent, whatever. So I'd say there were two separate problems that the Tirion scenario draws out:

    1) Lack of awareness of opponent's class identity. The AI doesn't need to know exactly what cards I'm holding to know whether I'm more or less likely to have answers based purely on the spells available to my class (in Standard at least).

    2) General lack of options. Like I said, Tirion is produced literally every time. But objectively, even something like Khartut Defender might be a better option if you're a turn away from certain death. (I mean, even  in the OP's scenario, if the other player was at 1 HP, why even offer Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate? Why not Shiv?)

    It can't offer you Khartut Defender because that's not a basic/classic card.

    1
  • MisterKnott's Avatar 285 83 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Touché. But Shiv over Swipe or whatever still holds. Cenarius could be a better option for what I described than Tirion. (Or Alexstrazsa. 

    These examples are just taken off the top of my head without the sets open in front of me. But for an AI that DOES have those options coded into its programming, the possibilities ought to be more diverse.

    2
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