Zephrys: the great fails

  • Brandon's Avatar Old God Fanatic 840 1224 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Also i have seen some people mention that Zephrys the Great doesn't work with Auchenai Soulpriest

    So me and a friend tried it out and sure enoegh, my friend had 6 health left, played Zephrys, i had 2 mana remaining after playing Soulpriest and then Zephrys, so i expected a Holy Light but nope. just some random garbage

    RNG is only fun as long as there is a 50/50 chance of getting something really good or trash level of bad. If RNG always results in something good, then it's not fun.

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  • ARES's Avatar Hungry Ghost 315 199 Posts Joined 06/01/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I wonder if the amount of secrets up affects the result.. as in:

    - 2 secrets = not enough to consider

    - exactly 1 secret = get your SI-7infilltrator

    - more than secrets 2 = flare.

    ARES summons Erymanthian Huffer.

    ARES declares attack with Huffer .

    Adonis' hp reached 0. ARES wins!

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  • Bersak's Avatar Magma Rager 575 394 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    If Zephrys should offer tech cards consistantly, they have to implement different algorithms for the 3 offered cards. 

    Something like:

    Card 1 offers damage 

    Card 2 offers value/minion

    Card 3 offers tech, boardclear

    I don’t know how it’s handled atm. He probably choses from card pools similar to those categories but since he often offres different cards with similar abilities (multiple boardclears etc), my guess would be that all 3 cards follow the same allgorithm without any hirarchy. Therefore, it’s difficult to draw the line for him between tech cards and obvious choices like boardclears or lethal spells. In OP‘s example, Zephrys (not considering the nature of the secret) finds lethal and all three offered cards are chosen for that purpose. 

    A mechanism with different fixed goals for every card has the downside that the overall consistancy would drop significantly. You would never get more than one boardclear as an option for example. This doesn’t have to be a bad thing though! The boardclear you need is very obvious most of the time. Things get more complicated with situational cards like Shadowflame or mass dispell.

    I don‘t know if i‘m making sens here.. 

     

    Winner winner chicken dinner

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I'm not sure i got your point, but if more variety is enforced in Zephrys the Great, it can only be for the good, as long as what is offered is optimal:

    If you need an aoe, and he provides the best one one for the situation, you don't really care of the other options.

    In particular, you don't care if other options are different AoE, EXCEPT possibly for the AoE tech option, ie Mass Dispel.

    Maybe he could still whiff, coding for optimality is no easy task, but certainly options that are just redundant with each other are bad: when that happens, it's like he gives you no choice at all.

    PS: i am not suggesting he should always offer 3 different types of cards. I'm suggesting he should NEVER offer 3 redundant cards (ie cards that serve the same purpose in the same way).

    -1
  • FieselFitz's Avatar Anduin 735 1028 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Well i personaly did not have a Zephry Fail so far - the moments i played him he got me either lethal or a useful card.

    I also played him once against a Hunter with 2 active Secrets and he got me a minion that destroyed a random secret.

    But i also guess it´s true that like someone said above you only wish for the Perfect Card and that doesn't mean you will always get the best outcome!

    Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!

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  • Xarkkal's Avatar Servant of Illidan 890 1321 Posts Joined 03/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From NightCrawler
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.

    Only 3 redundant options: Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe. Twice.

    For future reference, if you play Zephy with Brann or shaman quest hero power, he will give you the same options twice without exceptions.  He will not take the fact that he just gave you these choices into account.  If you somehow play zephy twice in a row, the options will only change if the first options became unplayable due to you spending an additional 2 mana.  Since he gave you evis, fireball and swipe on 8 mana the first time, you can assume he will give you the same options again because all these options are also playable on 6 mana

    Not calling you a n00b; this is just FYI

    Not true, I've played him with the Quest Shaman HP and got different options. Granted, 2/3 options were the same, but regardless, it wasn't the exact same 3 choices.

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  • Synesthesy's Avatar 235 142 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    1 our ago, wild, reno mage with DK (me) vs sky temple quest reno mage (opponent), both Medivh avatar. Deck almost out. I was Frost Lich Jaina almost at full health, with some minion on board. Opponent was almost dead but with 2 secret out, one mage, one hunter: ice block and rat trap. I attacked with everything but a Water Elemental and he was at 3 health, then I played Zephrys that gave me Flare (with Fireball and Eviserate).

    I don't know if attacking - setting up lethal with only 1 card missing - helped or not.

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  • MisterKnott's Avatar 285 83 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 2 years, 1 month ago

    This feels like it was a step away from a Zephrys fail, so I’m curious if anyone else has experienced this scenario.

    Playing Highlander Mage. Opponent has 10 health. I have a Frostbolt in hand and Kalecgos on the board. After whittling down the board I have 7 mana left. There is a 2-health taunt minion in the way. 

    I play Frostbolt first on the taunt minion to use Kalecgos’s “free” cast. I run Kalecgos into face. With opponent now at 6 health, Zephrys correctly offers Fireball for lethal. (And weirdly Arcanite Reaper, in case I wanted to toy with him for another turn...?)

    My concern at the time was whether or not Zephrys “knew” about Kalecgos’s effect. Without Kalecgos, I wouldn’t have had enough mana (just 5) to play both Frostbolt and Fireball in the same turn. Had I played Zephrys right away, would he have seen the potential lethal, or would he have offered me The Black Knight? 

    I actually like the card MORE because I had to do the work, but I can see why it would be subject to possible misunderstandings. 

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  • Morr's Avatar 70 3 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 1 month ago

    I dont think that he tracks effects of minions such as the one from Kalecgos. 

    But not sure.  

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  • killanator6000's Avatar 195 38 Posts Joined 07/11/2019
    Posted 2 years, 1 month ago

    lunas

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  • Quicksand's Avatar 355 154 Posts Joined 06/05/2019
    Posted 2 years, 1 month ago

    He Values things you can play the same turn, and both Cenarius and Alexstrasza will help you far less since you far less the same turn than Tyrion FordringBADCARDNAMEsince you wouldn't be able to play them.

    Tyrion is just a value option, not specifically a defensive option. It's one of , if not the single best value card at 8 mana.

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  • Thez's Avatar 190 73 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 1 month ago

    Zephrys only knows the following:

    • The amount of cards in your hand (for stuff like Mountain Giant)
    • The board state (minions, weapons, quests + secrets (but not what secret))
    • Your mana

    Of all of these, your mana is the most important. If you wanted a counter against those Secrets, you probably wanted Flare which is 2 mana. To encourage Zephrys to give you that card (he can see there are secrets active) play him on 4 mana left. Zephrys himself costs 2 mana, leaving you with 2 mana, which is the same cost as Flare. If you were worried about Counterspell, you could use your Eviscerate on something else (even yourself) first to trigger it and then play Zephrys.

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 1 month ago
    Quote From Thez

    Zephrys only knows the following:

    • The amount of cards in your hand (for stuff like Mountain Giant)
    • The board state (minions, weapons, quests + secrets (but not what secret))
    • Your mana

    Of all of these, your mana is the most important. If you wanted a counter against those Secrets, you probably wanted Flare which is 2 mana. To encourage Zephrys to give you that card (he can see there are secrets active) play him on 4 mana left. Zephrys himself costs 2 mana, leaving you with 2 mana, which is the same cost as Flare. If you were worried about Counterspell, you could use your Eviscerate on something else (even yourself) first to trigger it and then play Zephrys.

    He gave me (4) and (2) cost options both when i was at (8) left and (6) left. ;)

    We can stay here for ages speculating at all the options i could have played: there would still be a case left where i could have been countered for that turn (ie. If i played my own Evis first, i would have missed lethal: even assuming i could find a tech from Zephrys at that point, i would have had nothing left to actually hit the face).

    The point is not what i could have done, but what he gave me (regardless of mana, clearly, since all his options were already at lower cost than mana left).

    Otherwise said: could he fix my turn? Yes. Even moreso because he CAN and DOES skip the mana counter if he knows a more valuable option that is cheaper.

    Did he give me ONE OUT OF THREE options to do so? No. So he actually whiffed. Independently of how i played him.

    Once more, i repeat the points:

    • Zephrys can never be perfect.
    • He can't always solve a bad situation, both because the Basic/Classic set is limited, and because chain-reactions could still impair the original plan.
    • Yet he could definitely be better with more diversity of options, when he is summoned for answers (instead of giving 3 redundant ones, which makes the choice irrelevant).
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  • anchorm4n's Avatar The Cake Is A Lie 1590 1684 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    Sorry for the necro but can someone tell me what I'm missing here? 

    I was specifically looking for Brawl and while Holy Nova at least makes a bit of sense, the other two just seem weird. I guess I would have lost anyway but who knows if Alex wouldn't have sent me some heal. As it stood, my opponent used the remaining 4 attack on board plus Soulfire to finish me next turn.

    I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
    Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com

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  • Kovachut's Avatar HearthStationeer 675 756 Posts Joined 03/31/2019
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago
    Quote From anchorm4n
    Show Spoiler

    Sorry for the necro but can someone tell me what I'm missing here? 

    I was specifically looking for Brawl and while Holy Nova at least makes a bit of sense, the other two just seem weird. I guess I would have lost anyway but who knows if Alex wouldn't have sent me some heal. As it stood, my opponent used the remaining 4 attack on board plus Soulfire to finish me next turn.

    The problem is, that Zephrys doesn't see what class/deck your opponent is playing and he can't figure out the possibility of them having burst from hand. He's not coded to work like this. Check this post:

    Quote From MisterKnott
    Show Spoiler

    If others are willing to look beyond the OP's framing to the broader question, I would be interested in what other scenarios people have seen go awry. One thing I've noticed in playing against Zephrys is what seems like a fairly limited card pool. If I'm a turn away from lethal, my opponent almost always plays Tirion Fordring the same turn as Zephrys. But one thing that the AI clearly doesn't weigh – but that the human player should – is that I'm playing Rogue, so have numerous ways to get Tirion out of the way or to ping off his Divine Shield. Sap? Game over. Fan of Knives, Lackeys, SI:7 Agent, whatever. So I'd say there were two separate problems that the Tirion scenario draws out:

    1) Lack of awareness of opponent's class identity. The AI doesn't need to know exactly what cards I'm holding to know whether I'm more or less likely to have answers based purely on the spells available to my class (in Standard at least).

    2) General lack of options. Like I said, Tirion is produced literally every time. But objectively, even something like Khartut Defender something else might be a better option if you're a turn away from certain death. (I mean, even  in the OP's scenario, if the other player was at 1 HP, why even offer Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate? Why not Shiv?) 

    That and also the fact, that the enemy board consisted of weak and fragile minions. He also saw how both you and your drake were low on health, so he gave you a self healing AoE. (If the opponent had had some sticky 4-attack+ minions on the board, Zephrys would have also considered giving you Chaos Nova or Brawl. And, no, the divine shielded minions don't count in your case, because their damage alone wouldn't have been enough to kill you.) Giving you a Brawl as you desired, even if it corresponded to your mana and might have saved you in your case, would have put you in a worse board state (tempowise). The AoE could have whiffed; Zephrys wanted to give you a 100% secure answer. That's why Holy Nova makes a lot of sense.

    And since he already gave you a board clear, I assume, that Zephrys thought the other options should be different. Hence he gave you some healing and a 5-mana taunt.

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  • anchorm4n's Avatar The Cake Is A Lie 1590 1684 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    Ah, that last paragraph explains it. Holy Nova was fine for me, I see why he offered this. I just didn't get the other two because even if my opponent would have traded into the taunt the best possible way for me, that would have been worse than the worst possible brawl outcome. But now you mention it I remember a stream or something where they explained that Zeph always (?) goes for a variety of answers, like offering taunt, aoe and heal if you use him defensively. Thank you!

    I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
    Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com

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  • Kovachut's Avatar HearthStationeer 675 756 Posts Joined 03/31/2019
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago
    Quote From anchorm4n

    Ah, that last paragraph explains it. Holy Nova was fine for me, I see why he offered this. I just didn't get the other two because even if my opponent would have traded into the taunt the best possible way for me, that would have been worse than the worst possible brawl outcome. But now you mention it I remember a stream or something where they explained that Zeph always (?) goes for a variety of answers, like offering taunt, aoe and heal if you use him defensively. Thank you!

    Np. Maybe Zephrys assumed, that you had a board clear (or some sort of an answer) in hand and that's why he decided to give you the taunt?

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  • anchorm4n's Avatar The Cake Is A Lie 1590 1684 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    Nope, the taunt would have left me with 0 mana and I had no answer in hand or I would have saved Zeph up for later use (see first screenshot). I figured it was brawl or die and tried to push him in that direction but he obviously knew better. 

    I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
    Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com

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  • Kovachut's Avatar HearthStationeer 675 756 Posts Joined 03/31/2019
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago
    Quote From anchorm4n

    Nope, the taunt would have left me with 0 mana and I had no answer in hand or I would have saved Zeph up for later use (see first screenshot). I figured it was brawl or die and tried to push him in that direction but he obviously knew better. 

    Yeah, I know. I just tried to explain the taunt option argument. I meant to say, that Zephrys might have thought, that you already had a clear in hand and that you needed a taunt for the next turn.

    [edit] After rereading the last sentence, I came to the conclusion that it sounds a bit dumb. I tried to say, that Zephrys gives you a variety of options to deal with a certain scenario. Since he can't see the contents of your hand, he can't decide on his own how appropriate his options are and whether he should give you sth else. In some scenarios the tempo option is better, especially when combined with support from hand. That's what I tried to say. But after a further consideration, the taunt option here does sound like a whiff. In the case of the healing spell, Zephrys gave you some mana to spare with, so if you had a 2-mana removal or a taunt, Healing Touch would have granted you more HP. But, yeah, the druid card is worse than the worst Brawl outcome, so you are right that with this logic Zephrys should have given you the warrior board clear instead of the druid minion.

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  • Kovachut's Avatar HearthStationeer 675 756 Posts Joined 03/31/2019
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    Btw, speaking of a Zephrys whiff, check Kibler's new video:

    https://youtu.be/oht-7ToAdrA?t=428

    Show Spoiler
    Later on he wondered why Zeph didn't give him Consecration.

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