Long story short: played against a lot of Quest Shamans and could beat most of them with a variety of pretty average decks, except of course when they just happen to have Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate on turn 3-4 and just completely highroll you with no counter whatsoever.
I'M not saying Quest Shaman needs to be nerfed in any capacity at this point, but if there's one thing that would drastically axe its winrate it's probably that very combo.
It's just an autowin against any deck that relies on beating them on board and it doesn't help that you don't even have to overcommit to be punished by it. It's essentially MCT but instead of playing around it by having only 3 minions you need to play around it by having no minions whatsoever, because if there are 4 minions on the board by turn 3 you lose the game (unless you are blessed by Hir'eek himself)
This is basically just another symptom of the Conjurer's Calling epidemic because Blizzard refuses to acknowledge that high-cost cards that can reduce their cost to be play on early turns are just broken in combination with cards that take mana cost into account.
If they fixed this interaction by having cards "remember" their played cost when they hit the field, we wouldn't have had to nerf CC and MAge wouldn't be dead right now.
I'm becoming more and more inclined to agree. A card like mutate is totally fine when you're evolving an understatted battlecry like giggling inventor or Former Champ, because at least there you played the full price for the minion before evolving it, but as soon as discounted minions enter the equation the amount of stats you can cheat out early becomes too oppressive. Conjurer's wouldn't have had to be nerfed without the Giant Brothers also existing in the same meta. Likewise, Mogu would be fair, a little underwhelming even, without the ability to morph it into an 8-drop well before turn 8.
Lost to a shaman who dropped Mogu on turn 3 and mutated into Gruul. I conceded turn 4. Felt SUPER bad for me, but this is not an incredibly common occurrence. I wouldn't mind a nerf to that guy, but I don't know if it's needed yet.
I just won a match because I was able to get a Grommash Hellscream on turn 4.
I don't think the combo is too oppressive because it is inconsistent, but when you pull it off it can be devastating. I do think they should change the way it works because losing to that combo just feels so bad, even if it doesn't happen often.
I got ripped for saying this same thing in another thread. But yes, I 100% agree. I got killed by a turn 4 Tirion in two straight games. Feels bad. They also have that transform lackey that can do the same thing for 1 more mana, so its even easier to pull off.
Haha this is what would happen to me if I played that deck. Every time! I do agree that discounted cards interact poorly with cards that take their cost into effect once in play. This has been a problem in several cases and while the Shaman deck isn't tier 1 it is one of those situations where high rolling into a Gruul on turn 4 for example just feels bad to play against. In a game where fun is the goal unfun plays are a big problem often more important to fix than really powerful decks. For example see Big Priest in wild which is not a t1 deck but is just really unfun to play against while a lot of the other t1 wild decks are more fun to play against
Damn the 8 mana Standard pool is waaay better than I thought. I remember one times losing to double Mogu into Walking Fountain.
I don't have a particular opinion to express, but I just wanted to highlight all the possible outcomes for people that want to comment :)
The eight mana slot has been the sweet spot for evolves and such for ages, but this is probably one of the strongest pools ever. I say probably only because The Lich King is no longer in standard. It's a fair point to raise that Mogu probably would be considerably weaker as a 6 mana 3/3 or 8 mana 4/4 even if it kept the discount mechanic simply because it'd roll into considerably worse minion pools.
On a side note I'm convinced Hir'eek costs 8 just to have an absolute dud on 8-mana rolls.
I find it best to do two things. Firstly, accept that the combo exists. Secondly, build your decks accordingly. You're statement about playing around it by having no minions on board is, in my experience the worst way to play around it. I have had much better time playing around it by flooding the board and holding buffs in hand. If you flood the board they will play the Fleshshaper, take a VT into one minion and then evolve. Leaving them with an 8/8 on average and you with a few minions ready to turn pump spells into kill spells. For example if he leaves me 4 attack on minions on board my Blessing of Kings is now sacrifice those minions, destroy his eight drop. There are other options in other classes, this is just the one that comes up most often for me as I've been playing lots of paladin.
TLDR; Fleshshaper + Mutate is powerful, but not overpowered. It can be played into and punished, as long as you're expecting it.
Damn the 8 mana Standard pool is waaay better than I thought. I remember one times losing to double Mogu into Walking Fountain.
I don't have a particular opinion to express, but I just wanted to highlight all the possible outcomes for people that want to comment :)
The eight mana slot has been the sweet spot for evolves and such for ages, but this is probably one of the strongest pools ever. I say probably only because The Lich King is no longer in standard. It's a fair point to raise that Mogu probably would be considerably weaker as a 6 mana 3/3 or 8 mana 4/4 even if it kept the discount mechanic simply because it'd roll into considerably worse minion pools.
On a side note I'm convinced Hir'eek costs 8 just to have an absolute dud on 8-mana rolls.
The 8 mana minion pool is not bad right now but it's far from the strongest it's ever been. In the year of Old Gods (when evolve effects were first introduced), Karazhan and Gadgetzan, the worst minion was Anomalus, but the second worst was like, a 7/7. And then there were the good rolls like Ragnaros the Firelord, Ragnaros, Lightlord and Rhonin. That's insane compared to now with a pool that includes cards like Hir'eek, the Bat and quite a lot of 5/5's with no effect.
Blizzard should fix this as a mechanic, if you paid a certain mana cost for something it should keep the mana cost you paid for on board this would solve CC and any other future problem..
Blizzard should fix this as a mechanic, if you paid a certain mana cost for something it should keep the mana cost you paid for on board this would solve CC and any other future problem..
This seems fair to me, and I have heard it suggested before.
My question is, if the minion gets bounced back to your hand.
By your own OR by say, SAP. What cost does it go back to your hand at?
Or to the deck if it gets shuffled?
Concistancy would become a problem. The discounted card looses it's discount when used.
Blizzard should fix this as a mechanic, if you paid a certain mana cost for something it should keep the mana cost you paid for on board this would solve CC and any other future problem..
This seems fair to me, and I have heard it suggested before.
My question is, if the minion gets bounced back to your hand.
By your own OR by say, SAP. What cost does it go back to your hand at?
Or to the deck if it gets shuffled?
Concistancy would become a problem. The discounted card looses it's discount when used.
It would definitely go back to hand at the original cost, with only additional cost reduction effects or cost manipulating effects on the card itself bringing the cost back down again.
The same is pretty true with cards that have been buffed or debuffed when they bounce, the stats all reset.
Evolve Shaman with Thrall, Deathseer is the reason I have the golden Shaman hero! As soon as I opened that card I built the deck and played it at a 75% win rate for over 100 wins... Insane! The dominance of that deck dropped after a few months though after they nerfed Corridor Creeper followed by the sudden rise of Prince Keleseth tempo decks.
I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. You see a problem and immediatly cry nerf, rather then looking at the bigger picture. The simple reason of why mogu fleshshaper + mutate is powerfull is because people aren't running cards that awnser it. Or they have a removal option, but are playing a highlander deck and therefor can't consistently find their 1 awnser in time.
You won't hear the control warrior player complain as much about mogu fleshshaper evolve because he has the tools to deal with it. Same with the mecha'thun warlock player, he has plague of flames or voodoo doll + mortal coil to deal with an early big minion.
The fact is, cards like sap, shadow word death, subdue, hex, polymorph ... are seeing not enough play. There is a chance cards like ethereal lackey, vulpera scoundral, mana cyclone, can give you the removal you need but the chances usually aren't in your favor.
Sometimes you highroll your opponent, sometimes you get highrolled but you can't demand a nerf because you refuse to play the awnsers that are in the game or rely on inconsistent strategies to beat those highroller plays.
Blizzard should fix this as a mechanic, if you paid a certain mana cost for something it should keep the mana cost you paid for on board this would solve CC and any other future problem..
This seems fair to me, and I have heard it suggested before.
My question is, if the minion gets bounced back to your hand.
By your own OR by say, SAP. What cost does it go back to your hand at?
Or to the deck if it gets shuffled?
Concistancy would become a problem. The discounted card looses it's discount when used.
It would revent via the enchantment keep/unkeep rules there is a problem with prelete/undertakah with taurrisan/prismatic lens that would permanently reduce they cost (cause my suggestion is to make reduced cost an enchantment) but that's fine I guess it's much more complicated to do..
Long story short: played against a lot of Quest Shamans and could beat most of them with a variety of pretty average decks, except of course when they just happen to have Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate on turn 3-4 and just completely highroll you with no counter whatsoever.
I'M not saying Quest Shaman needs to be nerfed in any capacity at this point, but if there's one thing that would drastically axe its winrate it's probably that very combo.
It's just an autowin against any deck that relies on beating them on board and it doesn't help that you don't even have to overcommit to be punished by it. It's essentially MCT but instead of playing around it by having only 3 minions you need to play around it by having no minions whatsoever, because if there are 4 minions on the board by turn 3 you lose the game (unless you are blessed by Hir'eek himself)
This is basically just another symptom of the Conjurer's Calling epidemic because Blizzard refuses to acknowledge that high-cost cards that can reduce their cost to be play on early turns are just broken in combination with cards that take mana cost into account.
If they fixed this interaction by having cards "remember" their played cost when they hit the field, we wouldn't have had to nerf CC and MAge wouldn't be dead right now.
You are super late to the party, we have the exact same interaction for a looong time. Kobolds had corridor creeper which was literally the same but even easier to get on board early... That + unstable evolution did a lot of stuff... So next time you post circlejerk like this just don't, it's a very old strategy and definitely not that op
I don't think it's that big of a problem. It's a big power spike but most decks have big if not bigger power strikes right now. Priests are having 12/12+ on early turns, Edwin is still a card, druids are rushing two 5/5s for 5 (not even a combo), aggro warrior can do some nutty stuff with the merc. It's pretty far off from the value and power of conjurer's calling. Mogu + mutate isn't even super strong in several matchups and 8 drops has plenty of rolls that aren't too insane to deal with.
I think it's pretty important for the deck to get some raw tempo and it makes games interesting. Sometimes you get blown out but that just happens in hearthstone. you would have to change a lot of cards before it made sense to nerf that.
Just wanna add that Mutate has the 4th highest Mulligan winrate in Quest SHaman atm...only beat by Questing Explorer (ofc), Cable Rat and for some reason Shudderwock.
I don't think it's that big of a problem. It's a big power spike but most decks have big if not bigger power strikes right now. Priests are having 12/12+ on early turns, Edwin is still a card, druids are rushing two 5/5s for 5 (not even a combo), aggro warrior can do some nutty stuff with the merc. It's pretty far off from the value and power of conjurer's calling. Mogu + mutate isn't even super strong in several matchups and 8 drops has plenty of rolls that aren't too insane to deal with.
I think it's pretty important for the deck to get some raw tempo and it makes games interesting. Sometimes you get blown out but that just happens in hearthstone. you would have to change a lot of cards before it made sense to nerf that.
we'Re talking about a 2-card combo that punishes decks that are just playing their gameplan and have no other option to beat you.
We're talking about a 7-mana Sea Giant that also deals 3 damage.
Long story short: played against a lot of Quest Shamans and could beat most of them with a variety of pretty average decks, except of course when they just happen to have Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate on turn 3-4 and just completely highroll you with no counter whatsoever.
I'M not saying Quest Shaman needs to be nerfed in any capacity at this point, but if there's one thing that would drastically axe its winrate it's probably that very combo.
It's just an autowin against any deck that relies on beating them on board and it doesn't help that you don't even have to overcommit to be punished by it. It's essentially MCT but instead of playing around it by having only 3 minions you need to play around it by having no minions whatsoever, because if there are 4 minions on the board by turn 3 you lose the game (unless you are blessed by Hir'eek himself)
This is basically just another symptom of the Conjurer's Calling epidemic because Blizzard refuses to acknowledge that high-cost cards that can reduce their cost to be play on early turns are just broken in combination with cards that take mana cost into account.
If they fixed this interaction by having cards "remember" their played cost when they hit the field, we wouldn't have had to nerf CC and MAge wouldn't be dead right now.
You are super late to the party, we have the exact same interaction for a looong time. Kobolds had corridor creeper which was literally the same but even easier to get on board early... That + unstable evolution did a lot of stuff... So next time you post circlejerk like this just don't, it's a very old strategy and definitely not that op
no we did not, because a) Creeper needed things to die first, and b) we didn'T have 0-mana evolution (not to mention we didn't really have a Shaman deck that is strong outside of shenanigans like this at the time)
but yeah, let'S call it circlejerk because yo can't form a coherent argument
Long story short: played against a lot of Quest Shamans and could beat most of them with a variety of pretty average decks, except of course when they just happen to have Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate on turn 3-4 and just completely highroll you with no counter whatsoever.
I'M not saying Quest Shaman needs to be nerfed in any capacity at this point, but if there's one thing that would drastically axe its winrate it's probably that very combo.
It's just an autowin against any deck that relies on beating them on board and it doesn't help that you don't even have to overcommit to be punished by it. It's essentially MCT but instead of playing around it by having only 3 minions you need to play around it by having no minions whatsoever, because if there are 4 minions on the board by turn 3 you lose the game (unless you are blessed by Hir'eek himself)
This is basically just another symptom of the Conjurer's Calling epidemic because Blizzard refuses to acknowledge that high-cost cards that can reduce their cost to be play on early turns are just broken in combination with cards that take mana cost into account.
If they fixed this interaction by having cards "remember" their played cost when they hit the field, we wouldn't have had to nerf CC and MAge wouldn't be dead right now.
Blizzard loves giving Shaman ridiculous evolve powers. Remember Dopplegangster and the tricks you could pull off with evolution?
I'm becoming more and more inclined to agree. A card like mutate is totally fine when you're evolving an understatted battlecry like giggling inventor or Former Champ, because at least there you played the full price for the minion before evolving it, but as soon as discounted minions enter the equation the amount of stats you can cheat out early becomes too oppressive. Conjurer's wouldn't have had to be nerfed without the Giant Brothers also existing in the same meta. Likewise, Mogu would be fair, a little underwhelming even, without the ability to morph it into an 8-drop well before turn 8.
Lost to a shaman who dropped Mogu on turn 3 and mutated into Gruul. I conceded turn 4. Felt SUPER bad for me, but this is not an incredibly common occurrence. I wouldn't mind a nerf to that guy, but I don't know if it's needed yet.
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
I just won a match because I was able to get a Grommash Hellscream on turn 4.
I don't think the combo is too oppressive because it is inconsistent, but when you pull it off it can be devastating. I do think they should change the way it works because losing to that combo just feels so bad, even if it doesn't happen often.
Akali, the Rhino Al'Akir the Windlord Arcane Devourer Batterhead Captain Hooktusk Catrina Muerte Cauldron Elemental Da Undatakah Deranged Doctor Fel Lord Betrug Gilnean Royal Guard Grommash Hellscream Gruul Heroic Innkeeper Hex Lord Malacrass Hir'eek, the Bat Ironbark Protector Jepetto Joybuzz Lucentbark Mosh'Ogg Enforcer Octosari Pit Crocolisk Princess Talanji Splintergraft Splitting Festeroot Tess Greymane Tirion Fordring Walking Fountain Tortollan Pilgrim Tomb Warden Whirlwind Tempest
Damn the 8 mana Standard pool is waaay better than I thought. I remember one times losing to double Mogu into Walking Fountain.
I don't have a particular opinion to express, but I just wanted to highlight all the possible outcomes for people that want to comment :)
Mogu Fleshshaper into Hir'eek, the Bat totally OP, Blizzard please nerf.
Sorry guys, I had to.
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
I got ripped for saying this same thing in another thread. But yes, I 100% agree. I got killed by a turn 4 Tirion in two straight games. Feels bad. They also have that transform lackey that can do the same thing for 1 more mana, so its even easier to pull off.
Communism is just a red herring
Haha this is what would happen to me if I played that deck. Every time! I do agree that discounted cards interact poorly with cards that take their cost into effect once in play. This has been a problem in several cases and while the Shaman deck isn't tier 1 it is one of those situations where high rolling into a Gruul on turn 4 for example just feels bad to play against. In a game where fun is the goal unfun plays are a big problem often more important to fix than really powerful decks. For example see Big Priest in wild which is not a t1 deck but is just really unfun to play against while a lot of the other t1 wild decks are more fun to play against
Chaos, Panic, and Disorder, My work here is done.
Welcome to the thunder-dome bitch!
The eight mana slot has been the sweet spot for evolves and such for ages, but this is probably one of the strongest pools ever. I say probably only because The Lich King is no longer in standard. It's a fair point to raise that Mogu probably would be considerably weaker as a 6 mana 3/3 or 8 mana 4/4 even if it kept the discount mechanic simply because it'd roll into considerably worse minion pools.
On a side note I'm convinced Hir'eek costs 8 just to have an absolute dud on 8-mana rolls.
I find it best to do two things. Firstly, accept that the combo exists. Secondly, build your decks accordingly. You're statement about playing around it by having no minions on board is, in my experience the worst way to play around it. I have had much better time playing around it by flooding the board and holding buffs in hand. If you flood the board they will play the Fleshshaper, take a VT into one minion and then evolve. Leaving them with an 8/8 on average and you with a few minions ready to turn pump spells into kill spells. For example if he leaves me 4 attack on minions on board my Blessing of Kings is now sacrifice those minions, destroy his eight drop. There are other options in other classes, this is just the one that comes up most often for me as I've been playing lots of paladin.
TLDR; Fleshshaper + Mutate is powerful, but not overpowered. It can be played into and punished, as long as you're expecting it.
twitch.tv/BentoHS
The 8 mana minion pool is not bad right now but it's far from the strongest it's ever been. In the year of Old Gods (when evolve effects were first introduced), Karazhan and Gadgetzan, the worst minion was Anomalus, but the second worst was like, a 7/7. And then there were the good rolls like Ragnaros the Firelord, Ragnaros, Lightlord and Rhonin. That's insane compared to now with a pool that includes cards like Hir'eek, the Bat and quite a lot of 5/5's with no effect.
However, Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate is often still frustrating to deal with.
Blizzard should fix this as a mechanic, if you paid a certain mana cost for something it should keep the mana cost you paid for on board this would solve CC and any other future problem..
I usually get it on turn 4 and i woukd say 80% of the time its the 7/7 elemental
This happened to me today.
All I can say is that the horror is REAL! :)
\/\/olfgang
This seems fair to me, and I have heard it suggested before.
My question is, if the minion gets bounced back to your hand.
By your own OR by say, SAP. What cost does it go back to your hand at?
Or to the deck if it gets shuffled?
Concistancy would become a problem. The discounted card looses it's discount when used.
\/\/olfgang
It would definitely go back to hand at the original cost, with only additional cost reduction effects or cost manipulating effects on the card itself bringing the cost back down again.
The same is pretty true with cards that have been buffed or debuffed when they bounce, the stats all reset.
Evolve Shaman with Thrall, Deathseer is the reason I have the golden Shaman hero! As soon as I opened that card I built the deck and played it at a 75% win rate for over 100 wins... Insane! The dominance of that deck dropped after a few months though after they nerfed Corridor Creeper followed by the sudden rise of Prince Keleseth tempo decks.
I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. You see a problem and immediatly cry nerf, rather then looking at the bigger picture.
The simple reason of why mogu fleshshaper + mutate is powerfull is because people aren't running cards that awnser it. Or they have a removal option, but are playing a highlander deck and therefor can't consistently find their 1 awnser in time.
You won't hear the control warrior player complain as much about mogu fleshshaper evolve because he has the tools to deal with it. Same with the mecha'thun warlock player, he has plague of flames or voodoo doll + mortal coil to deal with an early big minion.
The fact is, cards like sap, shadow word death, subdue, hex, polymorph ... are seeing not enough play. There is a chance cards like ethereal lackey, vulpera scoundral, mana cyclone, can give you the removal you need but the chances usually aren't in your favor.
Sometimes you highroll your opponent, sometimes you get highrolled but you can't demand a nerf because you refuse to play the awnsers that are in the game or rely on inconsistent strategies to beat those highroller plays.
It would revent via the enchantment keep/unkeep rules there is a problem with prelete/undertakah with taurrisan/prismatic lens that would permanently reduce they cost (cause my suggestion is to make reduced cost an enchantment) but that's fine I guess it's much more complicated to do..
You are super late to the party, we have the exact same interaction for a looong time. Kobolds had corridor creeper which was literally the same but even easier to get on board early... That + unstable evolution did a lot of stuff... So next time you post circlejerk like this just don't, it's a very old strategy and definitely not that op
Reno Jackson
Kazakus
My faves!
You can beat me but I will still yeet your skeet
I don't think it's that big of a problem. It's a big power spike but most decks have big if not bigger power strikes right now. Priests are having 12/12+ on early turns, Edwin is still a card, druids are rushing two 5/5s for 5 (not even a combo), aggro warrior can do some nutty stuff with the merc. It's pretty far off from the value and power of conjurer's calling. Mogu + mutate isn't even super strong in several matchups and 8 drops has plenty of rolls that aren't too insane to deal with.
I think it's pretty important for the deck to get some raw tempo and it makes games interesting. Sometimes you get blown out but that just happens in hearthstone. you would have to change a lot of cards before it made sense to nerf that.
Just wanna add that Mutate has the 4th highest Mulligan winrate in Quest SHaman atm...only beat by Questing Explorer (ofc), Cable Rat and for some reason Shudderwock.
we'Re talking about a 2-card combo that punishes decks that are just playing their gameplan and have no other option to beat you.
We're talking about a 7-mana Sea Giant that also deals 3 damage.
no we did not, because a) Creeper needed things to die first, and b) we didn'T have 0-mana evolution (not to mention we didn't really have a Shaman deck that is strong outside of shenanigans like this at the time)
but yeah, let'S call it circlejerk because yo can't form a coherent argument