Genn Greymane and the Demon Hunter

  • Hydrafrog's Avatar Gul'dan 1365 1920 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    When Blizzard decided to roll our Demon Hunter, I think we can all agree on the fact that they may not have thought things through well enough.  One thing that  have a thought on is Genn Greymane's interaction with the deck.  The benefit of running this minion in your deck is that it lowers that cost of your Hero Power at the cost of restricting the cards that you put in your deck.  However, with Demon Hunter, the standard Hero Power is already 1 less than every other Hero Power. 

    What I am curious is how other people feel about what I would like to see.  Instead of making your Hero Power cost (1), having an Even Deck with Genn Greymane would be errata'd to state, "Your Hero Power costs (1) less".  Doing this would have no impact on the game with other classes, but would make playing an Even Demon Hunter a possibility. 

    With Raza the Chained, we have all seen what can happen with a (0) cost Hero Power.  However with that deck you are forced to play Highlander to get the benefit, whereas Even Demon Hunter doesn't have a card that would reset the Hero Power like Shadowreaper Anduin.  

    I am curious to see what other people feel the potential impact to the Wild game would/could be if this errata were to take place?  Personally, I love to play the game for the entertainment.  I'm not a league player and I'm a far cry from being pro.  But playing fun decks that change the way the game is played is entertaining to me.  What are everyone else's thoughts?

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  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1635 2527 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    Personally, I think the best thing to do would be to make the hero power cost 2 mana like everyone else's, and make it give +2 attack instead of +1. I think the 1 mana hero power is a design flaw in the class. In most cases, you hero power shouldn't be central to your decks strategy. It shouldn't be as efficient as Demon Hunter's is. A hero power should just be that thing you do with your extra mana if you don't have anything else to play. As it is now, it feels like every Demon Hunter is an Even DH only without the deckbuilding restriction.

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

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  • HyperOrange's Avatar 850 64 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    The thing is that an even deck doesn't work very well with an even hero power. The idea behind Genn making your hero power cost 1 is that it gives you something to do on odd turns, where normally you wouldn't have a way to spend all your mana. Baku also has a similar dynamic, since your upgraded hero power is a strong option on turn 2, and on later even turns you can be mana efficient with 1 cost cards. Odd demon hunter doesn't disrupt this flow very much, since your hero power just acts as a 1 cost card in that regard.

    You might think that it could be worth it to change the card anyways, as it would let you use your hero power on even turns without penalty, and you'd be right. Still, such a change could pose problems in the future. If at any point a new class with a 3 mana hero power were to be released, genn would bring its cost down to 2 mana and not 1, giving you 1 floating mana on odd turns. Less powerful, yes, but also not very well designed, and I think wild's high power level could deal with the extra discount relatively well.

    Then again, they've almost killed odd hunter by nerfing all its good odd cards into even cards, so maybe it's not such a bad idea.

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1472 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    Genn Greymane should definitely be adjusted to accomodate whatever HP with a benefit, at the given conditions.

    It will be fine until they release a Coldarra Drake for DH which seems a very unnecessary addition to the class, hence an unlikely problem.

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  • Marega's Avatar 550 705 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    even tho i think DH is already broken i say it should have some kind of upside. altho u cant let it have zero mana hero power, maybe being able to use ur hero power either twice a turn or perhaps make it cost 1 like it is but give it the opportunity to attack once that turn and bank an additional attack for next turn

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  • sinti's Avatar Global Moderator Mankrik 1810 2173 Posts Joined 10/20/2018
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From KANSAS

    Personally, I think the best thing to do would be to make the hero power cost 2 mana like everyone else's, and make it give +2 attack instead of +1. I think the 1 mana hero power is a design flaw in the class. In most cases, you hero power shouldn't be central to your decks strategy. It shouldn't be as efficient as Demon Hunter's is. A hero power should just be that thing you do with your extra mana if you don't have anything else to play. As it is now, it feels like every Demon Hunter is an Even DH only without the deckbuilding restriction.

    I dont agree with you there. New class is a new concept and that alone breaks many the old stigmas, so saying that "Hero Power should just be that thing you do with extra Mana" doesnt sound like a good argument to me. Tho maybe it will end up like that, once it gets more cards and its archetypes can branch out. Obviously it feels very one dimensional on release when the card pool is small and cards are designed for a specific archetype to go along with everything else in the class, Hero Power included. You could look at it the opposite way, this is how every class should have been, their Hero Power be their calling card, not "something to do with spare mana" :)

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  • Hydrafrog's Avatar Gul'dan 1365 1920 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    I have also thought, "Why didn't they have the Hero Power be  +2 attack?"  This would give a bonus of having a solid attack for 2 mana, and the draw back is that if you attack a minion, like the Rogue ability, you take the damage from that minion. This way it would scale much like the Hunter power.  Again, the downside is that if you attack a minion you are taking the damage to the face.

    The difference is that Rogue gets to keep their weapon for 2 turns per use, Hunter doesn't take damage when it's used.  A change like this could show the versatility and the fact that his class in Hearthstone is essentially a blend of these two classes.  At least that is my take on it.  Rogue has a lot of spells to help it draw through it's deck, and Hunter likes to go face... a lot.  

    I agree that this class is still in it's infancy and future releases will let us explore the possibilities of what it can do.  But for now, it seems like this class has been give a number of benefits without too many Achilles heels to strain it.

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  • MurlocAggroB's Avatar COMMENT_COUNT_450_HS 920 498 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From KANSAS

    In most cases, you hero power shouldn't be central to your decks strategy. It shouldn't be as efficient as Demon Hunter's is. A hero power should just be that thing you do with your extra mana if you don't have anything else to play.

    That's not true. The Warrior, Priest, Warlock, and Hunter hero powers have been core to many of their decks since the start of the game. The only reason the DH hero power is so good is because DH is almost exclusively a tempo class. Once (if) we get more Control cards for Demon Hunters, you'll see that 1 mana discount be entirely pointless.

    As someone who's tried to build a control list for Demon Hunters all throughout this expansion and failed miserably, nothing makes you appreciate that +1 Armor Druids get more than when your opponent has a big taunt and your hero power literally does nothing.

    A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head

    I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.

    Hmm. Turns out he's dead.

    2
  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1635 2527 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    Alright, I am willing to take back what I said about hero powers not being central to a deck strategy. But I still disagree with the 1 mana hero power. It is just too efficient and it makes the class feel boring when they do the same thing every turn. Even if your hero power provides a lot of synergy with your deck, you should still focus more on playing cards than just "hitting the button"

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

    1
  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 1050 925 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    What's wrong with Genn Greymane just not doing anything in demon hunter? It's not even close to the first time that a neutral card is essentially useless in a specific class (e.g. all secret synergy cards are only useful in 4 classes), and even main set mechanics have been notably weaker in some classes (it is no coincidence that rogue, whose hero power lasts (at least) 2 turns and doesn't stack, had no inspire card in TGT).

    As I see it the whole point of Genn was to promote deck building utilising a 1 mana hero power, not having an especially powerful effect (that was Baku's purpose). So DH getting that for free doesn't motivate turning Genn into a Baku effect.

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  • Hydrafrog's Avatar Gul'dan 1365 1920 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From AngryShuckie

    What's wrong with Genn Greymane just not doing anything in demon hunter? It's not even close to the first time that a neutral card is essentially useless in a specific class (e.g. all secret synergy cards are only useful in 4 classes), and even main set mechanics have been notably weaker in some classes (it is no coincidence that rogue, whose hero power lasts (at least) 2 turns and doesn't stack, had no inspire card in TGT).

    As I see it the whole point of Genn was to promote deck building utilising a 1 mana hero power, not having an especially powerful effect (that was Baku's purpose). So DH getting that for free doesn't motivate turning Genn into a Baku effect.

    That's the whole point, it doesn't do anything for the class.  Every other class can benefit in one way or another from either Baku or Genn in their decks, some more than others.

    As for Rogue not having any Inspire cards, Paladin and Rogue didn't get anything from Witchwood for Odd or Even support. Yet Odd Paladin and Odd Rogue have remained consistent through the ladders in Standard and then in Wild. Where as Priest and Druid both got Odd support cards and neither saw play.  

    As for bringing a powerful effect to the game, Even Shaman has been continually high on the Wild ladder. 

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  • MurlocAggroB's Avatar COMMENT_COUNT_450_HS 920 498 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From KANSAS

    Even if your hero power provides a lot of synergy with your deck, you should still focus more on playing cards than just "hitting the button"

    I mean, Demon Hunters play more cards than Priests. Like 90% of Priest games are nothing and hero power on the first 4 turns.

    I don't know what your point is. Demon Hunters never just hit the button unless they have spare mana. They use the button to push tempo by clearing minions or empowering their spells and weapons. They build tempo by playing cards first. They have to play cards for their hero power to be useful. 1 attack is utterly unimpactful unless their other cards got them ahead.

    A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head

    I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.

    Hmm. Turns out he's dead.

    2
  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 1050 925 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From Hydrafrog
    Quote From AngryShuckie

    What's wrong with Genn Greymane just not doing anything in demon hunter? It's not even close to the first time that a neutral card is essentially useless in a specific class (e.g. all secret synergy cards are only useful in 4 classes), and even main set mechanics have been notably weaker in some classes (it is no coincidence that rogue, whose hero power lasts (at least) 2 turns and doesn't stack, had no inspire card in TGT).

    As I see it the whole point of Genn was to promote deck building utilising a 1 mana hero power, not having an especially powerful effect (that was Baku's purpose). So DH getting that for free doesn't motivate turning Genn into a Baku effect.

    That's the whole point, it doesn't do anything for the class.  Every other class can benefit in one way or another from either Baku or Genn in their decks, some more than others.

    As for Rogue not having any Inspire cards, Paladin and Rogue didn't get anything from Witchwood for Odd or Even support. Yet Odd Paladin and Odd Rogue have remained consistent through the ladders in Standard and then in Wild. Where as Priest and Druid both got Odd support cards and neither saw play.  

    As for bringing a powerful effect to the game, Even Shaman has been continually high on the Wild ladder. 

    I guess my point is that it doesn't need to do anything for the class. 4 out of 10 classes have neutral benefits for putting secrets in their deck, and 6 out of 10 could make decent use out of neutral weapon buffs, but that doesn't mean the other classes need to be able to benefit from those neutral cards just because they are available.

    I fully understand where you are coming from with all of this, but it is fundamentally the same as suggesting Secretkeeper has a different effect for the secret-less classes, which is wholly unnecessary. The only difference is that Genn is a big flashy legendary, and that is not enough to justify adding some weird unique effect for demon hunter just because the class has normal Genn effect for free.

    ----------------------------

    Rogue and paladin didn't get any class odd or even support precisely because their odd and even hero powers were expected to be good enough to make the decks by themselves. The devs made a point at the time that they provided class odd/even cards where they expected the archetype to need more support, so it is no huge surprise that with a couple of classes (druid and priest) that 1 card wasn't enough.

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  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1635 2527 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From MurlocAggroB
    Quote From KANSAS

    Even if your hero power provides a lot of synergy with your deck, you should still focus more on playing cards than just "hitting the button"

    I mean, Demon Hunters play more cards than Priests. Like 90% of Priest games are nothing and hero power on the first 4 turns.

    I don't know what your point is. Demon Hunters never just hit the button unless they have spare mana. They use the button to push tempo by clearing minions or empowering their spells and weapons. They build tempo by playing cards first. They have to play cards for their hero power to be useful. 1 attack is utterly unimpactful unless their other cards got them ahead.

    I don't think I illustrated my point very well. I don't like Demon Hunters hero power because it is too easy to use, and it is too efficient with cards like Satyr Overseer and Glaivebound Adept. A 1 mana Hero Power makes it too easy to round out your turns and avoid having any wasted mana. It feels like they are always playing with Genn, only without the deck building restriction.

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

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  • MurlocAggroB's Avatar COMMENT_COUNT_450_HS 920 498 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 10 months, 2 weeks ago

    Well yeah, that's what makes it good. The trade-off is that it has a weak effect. I don't understand how it can be too efficient when their attack cards are all balanced around them having a 1 mana hero power. Like, do you just want all their cards to suck?

    A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head

    I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.

    Hmm. Turns out he's dead.

    1
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