Does DH have a good reason to exist yet?

  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 805 1279 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Quote From AngryShuckie
    Quote From Almaniarra

    You don't need to explain this situation with gameplay. It was a market move and they screwed it.

    I was much less interested in why they added DH than in how much it ended up adding to the game. We don't actually need to know anything about LoR or the wider market to answer the latter question, because it is only relative to HS itself. So the for the main focus of this thread, we definitely do need to consider gameplay.

    You could look at it this way: what if it ended up a successful move? That was quite possible going into this, but the difference would be entirely internal to HS since the surrounding market would have been the same. Furthermore, that difference would boil down to gameplay (and possibly flavour to a much lesser extent).

    I don't really have enough info about how DHs are in WoW. I do care but what I know is only around Illidan and WCIII. There is also HoTS that i'm playing but i can only say something about Illidan's skills talents traits etc. and that won't be so deep information. What I know is DHs are posessed by some demons and they have a demon inside.

    You're mostly right what you said in OP but it seems like you also have no suggestions to it. I mean, I know you from this website and the old and now shitty one :D. You have great information about WoW and how the game mechanics is. If you have no solution how DH might be shaped around, I can't call anyone that can do it. So my first question is how it should have been implemented to the Hearthstone in your opinion ?

    Tho If someone asks me that "How could demon hunter as a class be succesful in hearthstone mechanically?" I would say that "Metamorphosis" as a keyword for DH like how Choose one is a keyword for Druids only. Minions that can metamorphose when you do something like Druid of the Plains for example. Cards that have two states. Or even Outcast might be the metamorphosis effect. Like; card is 4 mana 3/4 normally, no tribes, just a night elf with horns, if you play it while it is right most or left most, it transforms into 5/4 with demon tag and some texts on it etc.

    And another mechanic comes to my mind; Summons preys on your oppenents board. Think this as a whole class' mechanic. Benefits from that you hunt your prey which you summon for your opponent.

    People might hate it but Mana Burn is one of the best cards for DH mechanically. 2nd is Magehunter, 3rd is Kayn Sunfury (Should have been without charge and more stats), 4th is Star Student Stelina, 5th is Metamorphosis, 6th is Consume Magic, 7th and 8th are Sigils, 9th is Glide, 10th is Felsteel Executioner, 11th and 12th maybe Blade Dance and Blur (but it feels like Blur should have been a dual class card with Rogue and Blade Dance should be tri-class card as Warrior/DH/Rogue) and the others are cards like Acrobatics, Stiltstepper etc. that has effects if you play the cards that you draw that turn because of surviving counterpart of the class. Any other cards in DH feels like they belong to other classes and I honestly think that DH would be shaped around disorienting and distratcting tools like Mana Burn. People hates mill etc., i know that but this distracting tools fit so well to DH in my mind. These all are my own opinions tho.

    You must give the core elements like aggro midrange etc. I have no words for it but If I designed it, it would be shaped like
    -Distracting tools
    -Transforming minions (not choose one like - Transforming in hand like i described above or on board with some interaction)
    -Weapon synergy
    -Lifesteal
    -Summon minions for opponent
    -Rush

    And I want to ask another question if you excuse;

    They seem like they will add Monk to the game and IIRC it is a healer class that can also be dds. What we saw in HS about monks is that they are bouncing and healing too. It will probably be a class that has healing with Rogue mechanics. Something like combined Priest/Shaman/Rogue ? Maybe some evasion like can't be targeted spells or spells etc. What i know only is Chen Stormstout from WCIII and Lili Stormstout mostly from HoTS(There is also Chen too) , which is that Lili has healing but with brews like not burst heals, healing with stutter like Healing Rain for example, some Blind abilities that causes opponents miss their attacks so maybe attack decreasing or giving minions Ogre effect(%50 chance to attack wrong enemy/%50 chance to not attack etc.), Chi like Rogue's combo maybe ? or new stuff like Soul Fragments that some cards create chi's for you to spend like a spell, costs 3, draw a card and gain 3 chi, another spell, costs 1 restore 3 health, Chi(x): X more etc. And Chen have spirits of fire, wind, Ice; So maybe minions that Splits into others ? Chen also gaining shields so maybe Armor gaining like Warrior/Druid ? Some Kicks, fists etc. What we have about monks in HS is only bounce (Youthful Brewmaster and the other) and Hozen Healer (maybe ?) right now. That's why i'm related the class as Healer Rogues. So it obviously will have bounce synergy.

    So I'm asking, for them to not screw again, How should they implement Monks in Hearthstone to make it feels unique ? I always read your comments, read your topics. You always have your informations and make your points. You also made your point in this topic aswell but you seem like you are only critizing without any suggestions this time. You didn't bring any solutions or suggestions to the table. (I'm sorry if you suggest any solutions in comments, I just have read OP and speak about it. I will continue to read comments now.)

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  • Cheese's Avatar 245 125 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From OldManSanns
    Personally, I think Hearthstone should have established a lot more division between the classes even prior to Demon Hunter. That doesn't necessarily mean that each class should have only been good at one thing, but I would have liked to see each have a defined profile. Consider the current "color chart":
    • Mage is great at AoE spells, single-target spell removal, over-the-top damage, & card draw; they are good at disruption (secrets) & value generation; they are weak at healing & units; they have no rush or weapons
    • Shaman is OK at AoE spells, single-target spell removal, healing, over-the-top damage, token units, rush units, and weapons; they are poor at card draw & value generation; no disruption
    • Hunter is great at over-the-top damage, units, rush, spell-based unit removal, disruption, & weapons; they are poor at card draw & value generation; no healing & no AoE besides explosive trap
    • Warrior is great at weapons, rush, units, single-target spell removal, AoE spells (brawl, bladestorm); they are good at value generation & healing; they are weak at card draw; no disruption besides taunt

    ...and so on. Those descriptions are based largely around this developer insight article from 2 years ago, and already I'm sure people's inner voices are screaming. "How can you say warriors are weak at card draw when Cutting Class exists? Or that hunter is bad at value generation with cards like Warsong Wrangler & Adorable Infestation?" And that's BEFORE accounting for neutral cards filling in gaps (e.g., Voracious Reader to fix bad draw; Armor Vendor for healing; etc). In my eyes, the Venn diagram of even the original 9 classes is this giant blob that says everyone is way more alike then they are distinct. So from there, it's no surprise at all that Demon Hunter would have trouble distinguishing itself. That's my $0.02. 

    I remember a bluepost from Brode who compared Hs classes to MTG colors. He concluded that the ideal number of classes for HS to have...would actually be lower than 9, but they went with the 9 wow classes anyway for obvious flavor reasons.

    Quote From Author
    So I'm asking, for them to not screw again, How should they implement Monks in Hearthstone to make it feels unique ?

    I'm not sure they should consider adding another one at this point. Or they could do temporary yearly classes that rotate alongside the sets that introduce them. For now they should focus on DH... and Paladin + Shaman, so that those two classes have stable identities that don't make them either uberbroken or completely unplayable with no in-between.

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  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 1145 1097 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From OldManSanns

    In my eyes, the Venn diagram of even the original 9 classes is this giant blob that says everyone is way more alike then they are distinct. So from there, it's no surprise at all that Demon Hunter would have trouble distinguishing itself. That's my $0.02. 

    The Venn diagram picture is a nice one, if a little difficult to draw for the 10 classes simultaneously, where you need to a ~10 dimensional hypersphere for each class to draw all the overlaps correctly. I think what is central to this thread is that every class should have a significant part of their Venn hypersphere with no (meaningful) overlaps at all, and that most classes do. Note that by 'significant' I could still mean a small fraction of the total hypersphere, but it is a part that routinely affects how the class plays.

    In truth, DH only needs small tweaks to get there. At the moment outcast comes close, but the way in encourages aggro means it ends up making the class look even closer to hunter/rogue than it does without it. However, if they can harness the whole left-/right-most card thing in a way that didn't discourage using the expensive tools that hunter and rogue lack, then you'd be more or less set. Sigils are also extending DH's hypersphere into unexplored territory; they just need to become more than a gimmick for a single set.

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  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 1145 1097 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    You're mostly right what you said in OP but it seems like you also have no suggestions to it. I mean, I know you from this website and the old and now shitty one :D. You have great information about WoW and how the game mechanics is. If you have no solution how DH might be shaped around, I can't call anyone that can do it. So my first question is how it should have been implemented to the Hearthstone in your opinion ?

    Tho If someone asks me that "How could demon hunter as a class be succesful in hearthstone mechanically?" I would say that "Metamorphosis" as a keyword for DH like how Choose one is a keyword for Druids only. Minions that can metamorphose when you do something like Druid of the Plains for example. Cards that have two states. Or even Outcast might be the metamorphosis effect. Like; card is 4 mana 3/4 normally, no tribes, just a night elf with horns, if you play it while it is right most or left most, it transforms into 5/4 with demon tag and some texts on it etc.

    And another mechanic comes to my mind; Summons preys on your oppenents board. Think this as a whole class' mechanic. Benefits from that you hunt your prey which you summon for your opponent.

    People might hate it but Mana Burn is one of the best cards for DH mechanically. 2nd is Magehunter, 3rd is Kayn Sunfury (Should have been without charge and more stats), 4th is Star Student Stelina, 5th is Metamorphosis, 6th is Consume Magic, 7th and 8th are Sigils, 9th is Glide, 10th is Felsteel Executioner, 11th and 12th maybe Blade Dance and Blur (but it feels like Blur should have been a dual class card with Rogue and Blade Dance should be tri-class card as Warrior/DH/Rogue) and the others are cards like Acrobatics, Stiltstepper etc. that has effects if you play the cards that you draw that turn because of surviving counterpart of the class. Any other cards in DH feels like they belong to other classes and I honestly think that DH would be shaped around disorienting and distratcting tools like Mana Burn. People hates mill etc., i know that but this distracting tools fit so well to DH in my mind. These all are my own opinions tho.

    Distracting tools could work, as could the metamorphosis idea. I was initially hesitant about whether making the metamorphosis mechanic would encourage druids to work in the same way more often too, but I'm sure it will be fine. The distinction between burgle rogue and thief priest has always felt enough, so there's evidence the 'same' thing can be kept mechanically different over many years.

    Having given it a bunch of extra thought, I think DH could be made a lot more unique with very minor changes that don't even need to introduce anything fundamentally new. The two options that seem most likely to me are:

    1: Less outcast, more left/right stuff

    Outcast is undoubtedly a mechanic that is unique to DH and interesting on paper. However it is not without its problems, and the way it encourages dumping your hand to get cards into the correct place is seriously stifling DH's ability to leverage its unique combination of strengths, which is a large part of why it doesn't feel very distinct in practice.

    The solution is to lean into the whole left/right thing, but not have it attached to the outcast keyword so often. They are already starting to do this with Zai, the Incredible and Kurtrus Ashfallen (yes, Kurtrus has outcast, but he attacks the left- and right-most minions even without it). This way you can play DH with the unique aspect of being mindful of the positions of cards (both in hand and on board), without feeling like you have to ignore a huge part of the class to do it.

    Alternatively, print tools that help decks with expensive cards actually use outcast cards. When DH was announced everyone expected something that reorders your hand. Maybe a Lorekeeper Polkelt-like card that orders your hand from lowest to highest cost, allowing you to get that 8-drop out of the way. But sadly no such card has been printed yet.

    2: Proactive sigils

    The sigils are also a great unique mechanic on paper. The ability to set things up over 2 turns would be a distinct approach DH can take to do whatever it is DH wants to do.

    The sigils we currently have are both reactive, so they are quite limited in their ability to further your own plans. But if proactive sigils were printed, that were designed to enable your own next turn rather than counter your opponent's, then sigils become an integral part of the class experience, and not just some janky removal option.

    Quote From Author

    So I'm asking, for them to not screw again, How should they implement Monks in Hearthstone to make it feels unique ?

    As for monks, I honestly think they're going to be too close to existing classes to be a good choice to add to the game. DH is already showing that HS doesn't need another melee class, and monk would just be adding another one to the pile, even if it does have a unique mechanic like chi layered on top of it.

    So if HS needs any more classes (very much up for debate!), it will probably want a spellcaster class that doesn't use weapons, or only very sparingly if they do. That probably rules out Death Knight too. Despite the restrictions on players in WoW, there are way more classes that exist in the Warcraft universe than you can actually play as, so you could easily find something.

    The tinkerer (artificer in D&D terminology) is one that has potential without needing to think too much about it. It could be like the class manifestation of the GvG set, with lots of mechs and a spare-part mechanic that distinguishes it from everyone else. 

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  • Cheese's Avatar 245 125 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago

    Quote From Author
    The solution is to lean into the whole left/right thing, but not have it attached to the outcast keyword so often. They are already starting to do this with Zai, the Incredible and Kurtrus Ashfallen (yes, Kurtrus has outcast, but he attacks the left- and right-most minions even without it). This way you can play DH with the unique aspect of being mindful of the positions of cards (both in hand and on board), without feeling like you have to ignore a huge part of the class to do it.

    Also, differentiate left-most and right-most synergies.

    • The left-most card in your hand is the one you've been hoarding the longest. It is likely an expensive and/or situational card. "Left-most" synergies need to push a combo or control playstyle
    • The right-most card in your hand is always a card you drew or generated this turn. "Right-most" synergies need to push a miracle or zoo playstyle.
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  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 805 1279 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From AngryShuckie
     

     

    So if HS needs any more classes (very much up for debate!), it will probably want a spellcaster class that doesn't use weapons, or only very sparingly if they do. That probably rules out Death Knight too. Despite the restrictions on players in WoW, there are way more classes that exist in the Warcraft universe than you can actually play as, so you could easily find something.

     

    You seem like obsessed with "Need" term and you shouldn't in my opinion. Thess kind of contents are added game for more content mostly instead of the game needs it. You are right about uniqueness tho. If there is more content, it should be unique in some ways but "HS doesn't need any more classes" as an approach is wrong at the first place in my opinion. There should be some contents without the game needs it to expand the game's universe. It is true for any of the games. So for hearthstone it doesn't really matter which kind of content it is; I mean, another weapon class, another spell class etc. If it is unique enough, even there are similar canditates in the game, they should be added to the game too for serving more choices to player base like different approach of a weapon class, different style of control/aggro/combo potential etc.

    Think about FPS games, most of them doesn't really need any more weapons, but people likes to have newer ones because it gives people some other choices to play.

    Same with Moba genre, After dozens of characters added, most of them doesn't really need any new characters to the game but new characters always are welcomed for player bases because it is more choices. It is also good for competitive gaming because there is ban systems in games.

    If everything is made for necessity, We don't even need new expansions in card games because it is always Combo, Control, Aggro, Midrange etc. It is a limited format like Rock, Paper, Scissors and different colors like new Classes just gives it more colors to make it more alive. So Uniqueness is the most important part. If the game doesn't even need another aggro class for example, It should be added to the game if it feels unique in my opinion.

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  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 1145 1097 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    You seem like obsessed with "Need" term and you shouldn't in my opinion.

    There are two distinct uses of the word 'need' here. The first is just a sloppy alternative to asking whether HS would benefit from another class, and you are completely right that I should switch out the word 'need' here.

    The second use is more correct and more central to what this thread was intended to discuss. We could ask whether DH's decks/archetypes could exist to a very good approximation in another class based on the established class identity. If so, then it is just up to Blizz to print those cards in that other class, and all the faffing around with DH is unnecessary. 

    So to ask whether HS needs a class is really to ask whether the class is unique enough to offer something that couldn't be covered by an existing class, and not so much a comment on whether HS as a game actually needs to add certain types of content to be successful.

    This all gets muddied by classes gaining new tricks as time goes on, and some of these becoming core to how the class functions. Rogue's ability to generate cards from other classes didn't exist during Classic, for example, but is certainly a permanent fixture now. Since that can happen, could we not bypass adding classes completely and just add tools to the existing classes? This is of course the pre-DH philosophy of HS.

    Clearly the philosophy of the word 'need' is deeper than I expected when I started writing this...

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