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Aggro Hunter cards.

  • troY's Avatar Funnel Cakes 205 271 Posts Joined 11/21/2019
    Posted 7 months ago

    I can't seem to find decent stats on HSReplay, so I'll ask here.

    Aggro Hunter is a decent budget deck, but I have some questions about some inclusions.

    Many versions run Spellzerker, and maybe I'm using this card wrong, but it seems pretty pointless to me. Wouldn't Knife Juggler be a better card? It has synergy with the Leper Gnomes from the sidequest, Unleash the Hounds and Snake Trap.

    Is Wolfrider ever worth it over Animal Companion? Sure overall the later is better, but it's a 1 in 3 to get the one you want (on average). And SMOrc'ing for 3 seems more consistent, albeit sometimes weaker.

    Timber Wolf seems a bit weak to run 2 copies off. It's fine with Unleash and to activate Kill Command but pretty weak without that. Could Secretkeeper be a viable option, and running 6 secrets (2x Explosive Trap, 2x Snake Trap, 2x Freezing Trap)? This could even make Sunreaver Spy viable for the 2-mana spot.

    Why do some people run Bomb Toss? You can't activate the bombs, unless the opponents uses and Aoe.

    0
  • AliRadicali's Avatar 430 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 7 months ago

    I assume versions of the deck running Spellzerker are also running cards like rapid fire, arcane shot, maybe Cobalt Spellkin to deal a whole bunch of extra burn damage in one turn with a single spellzerker. Whether that's better than just leaning in on the beast/swarm synergies seems questionable to me, I'd be more inclined toward the juggler as well.

    I can see the argument for wolfrider over animal comp but I value the companion higher. Later on rolling a Leokk often isn't even a detriment with all the leper gnomes and such.

    0
  • Bystekhilcar's Avatar 230 334 Posts Joined 09/02/2019
    Posted 7 months ago

    There's a difference between even a full face hunter deck, and a mindless SMOrc deck. A lot of the people on ladder play the deck like the latter, certainly, but the only reason to build towards that path is if you simply don't have the cards to build a stronger list.

    - Spellzerker is for Rapid Fire first and foremost, as AliRadicali suggests above. It also has a little more relevance in the later stages of the game because these hunter decks expect to lose the board at some point - and any juggles hitting minions are worthless to you at that point (and arguably even earlier given your game-plan).

    - Animal Companion wins out over Wolfrider because while the deck expects to lose the board at some point, there's no reason to just throw away all board pressure on turn 3 without really being pushed to do so. Note that with Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Stalker in these decks you have strong early-game board potential, and remember that controlling the board adds up to more damage over time than just throwing everything at face from turn 1.

    - I may be wrong (I haven't spent a lot of time on Hunter stats lately), but my assumption is that Timber Wolf is a two-of because Unleash is often your win condition. You want to be able to reliably burst out after losing board. Specifically in that circumstance, it's doubling your Unleash damage for only 1 additional mana outlay. There may be other benefits I'm not seeing because I don't have the deck in front of me right now.

    - EDIT: Didn't see the Bomb Toss question. My answer is I have no idea, other than maybe an alternate late-game plan trying to set up a big Spellzerker turn. It's absolutely not something I'd run, personally, unless I was teching against Mage specifically.

    - It's important to recognise that this deck is not a mindless SMOrc deck - and in fact, such decks don't really exist outside of budget ladder-grind decks. Your early game should absolutely be about early board, and getting out Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Hunter. Midgame is about minimizing what you have to let through on board while pushing more damage. Late game - which for this deck means around turn 7 or 8 - is where you accept the board is lost and make a push to set up lethal. Accept the loss of board to activate a big Wolf-Unleash and push through everything you can.
    Knowing when to trade and when to push is a fundamental skill of any aggro deck, and in spite of what memes will tell you, 'always face' is not an acceptable answer.

    I see you when you're sleeping; I'm gone before you wake

    I'm not as good as turn 4 Barnes; But I'm at least a Twilight Drake

    7
  • PopeNeia's Avatar Darkmaster 230 292 Posts Joined 07/06/2019
    Posted 7 months ago

    As someone who dabbled in Face Hunter for a bit, I will try my best to answer your queries.

    Face Hunter is not powerful enough to hold the board for long, so things like Knife Juggler and Secretkeeper do not help us here. We are a Face deck, not a Tempo deck, we do not care about the board much, we just want to pressure our opponent's life. We also do not run that many secrets, so the minions are also quite inconsistent to activate.

    To reiterate what other people have said already, Spellzerker helps to give us some much needed burst later on, most likely with Quick Shot and Arcane Shots. Its a cheap and reliable way to deal upwards of 9 damage to your opponent out of nowhere and most importantly, over taunts.

    Timber Wolf is a useful card for the reasons already stated as well. It can help to double your Unleash damage out of nowhere and to also act as a Kill Command activator, it is most certainly more useful than a Secretkeeper.

    Animal Companion is just so much better than Wolfrider. There are those rare circumstances when the Hail Mary Huffer does not come through, but we always win more any other time, such as when you need a turn 3 play, or a Leokk buff to win very rarely. They are also beasts. As such, Animal Companion helps to win more games overall. 

    Finally, the Goblin Bombs are just weird. Maybe they are teching more heavily into the Spellzerker idea, or are experimenting as well.

    I'm assuming you might be on a budget here, but if you have the cards already, you can always try experimenting with them a bit yourself and see what works for you.

    This ain't no place for a hero

    2
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Swamp 965 2047 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 7 months ago
    Quote From Bystekhilcar

    There's a difference between even a full face hunter deck, and a mindless SMOrc deck. A lot of the people on ladder play the deck like the latter, certainly, but the only reason to build towards that path is if you simply don't have the cards to build a stronger list.

    - Spellzerker is for Rapid Fire first and foremost, as AliRadicali suggests above. It also has a little more relevance in the later stages of the game because these hunter decks expect to lose the board at some point - and any juggles hitting minions are worthless to you at that point (and arguably even earlier given your game-plan).

    - Animal Companion wins out over Wolfrider because while the deck expects to lose the board at some point, there's no reason to just throw away all board pressure on turn 3 without really being pushed to do so. Note that with Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Stalker in these decks you have strong early-game board potential, and remember that controlling the board adds up to more damage over time than just throwing everything at face from turn 1.

    - I may be wrong (I haven't spent a lot of time on Hunter stats lately), but my assumption is that Timber Wolf is a two-of because Unleash is often your win condition. You want to be able to reliably burst out after losing board. Specifically in that circumstance, it's doubling your Unleash damage for only 1 additional mana outlay. There may be other benefits I'm not seeing because I don't have the deck in front of me right now.

    - EDIT: Didn't see the Bomb Toss question. My answer is I have no idea, other than maybe an alternate late-game plan trying to set up a big Spellzerker turn. It's absolutely not something I'd run, personally, unless I was teching against Mage specifically.

    - It's important to recognise that this deck is not a mindless SMOrc deck - and in fact, such decks don't really exist outside of budget ladder-grind decks. Your early game should absolutely be about early board, and getting out Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Hunter. Midgame is about minimizing what you have to let through on board while pushing more damage. Late game - which for this deck means around turn 7 or 8 - is where you accept the board is lost and make a push to set up lethal. Accept the loss of board to activate a big Wolf-Unleash and push through everything you can.
    Knowing when to trade and when to push is a fundamental skill of any aggro deck, and in spite of what memes will tell you, 'always face' is not an acceptable answer.

    no offense, but stop circlejerking over how face HUnter is "not as braindead as the plebs would have you believe)

    The deck is simple and to the point. You push as much face damage as fast as you can. Board only matters if it threatens your life or can heal your opponent. Dwarven Sharpshooter is only ever used against minions to stop your opponent from value trading so you get more face damage in.

    Every deck needs piloting to some extent, you're not special. the deck is literally 80% direct damage, it's as straight aggro as it gets.

    If you're playing Face Hunter for the board then you're probably losing more games than you have to. You don#t win by having the board, you win by your opponent not having enough to kill you before you finish him off.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    -6
  • Bystekhilcar's Avatar 230 334 Posts Joined 09/02/2019
    Posted 7 months ago

    I actually don't play the deck at all, so there's no vested interest there. My comments are wholly from my position as an analyst and theorycrafter. I rarely play very aggressive decks simply because I find piloting them less interesting than other decks, and most of my play this expansion has been on midrange decks with a little bit of highlander thrown in.

    That said, I would note that pretty much every single deck that people complain about being 'brainless' in fact requires just as much ability to pilot as any other deck. Knowing when to trade and when to push is a major skill in HS, and funnily enough it's one that most control players never master. 

    The classic example is that of the old Pirate Warrior. Ask the average 'man on the street' and he'll whine that it's a braindead aggro deck. Watch a couple of professional players running Pirate Warrior mirrors, on the other hand, and you'll see more depth of technical ability than you'd see in most matchups in Standard today.

    To answer your final paragraph - what you're doing there is apparently misreading my post to mean 'always play for the board'. I very specifically laid out the gamestate in my post - you're only looking to hold the board for as long as you reasonably can. You're making a value judgment on what's going to net the most damage over the course of the game - maintaining board vs abandoning it to push. If you enter a game and start playing all-face from turn 1, you will not maximise your winrate with this deck. Hell, your own post states precisely that - Dwarven Sharpshooter exists to prevent value trades to maximise face damage. That is what board control means. You are controlling the game-state to allow your game plan to proceed - your game plan in this case being maximising damage to ensure the game doesn't go too late.

    Your statement 'Board only matters if it threatens your life or can heal your opponent' is wholly inaccurate. Board matters when you can judge the board, the gamestate, your opponent's projected deck and projected hand, and you can make the call that you'll get more damage within your expected game duration from playing for board than you will mindlessly pushing. That is a judgment you have to make every turn - arguably multiple times within each turn - when playing a damage-oriented deck. If you're not performing that analysis, you're playing suboptimally.

    I see you when you're sleeping; I'm gone before you wake

    I'm not as good as turn 4 Barnes; But I'm at least a Twilight Drake

    3
  • DelkoHS's Avatar Child of Galakrond 370 469 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 7 months ago

    Wolfrider saw play in old school face Hunter, and cards like Worgen Infiltrator and Nightblade were also common options. But I think there are better options in the current metagame, centered more around the Hero Power (Toxic Reinforcements, Dwarven Sharpshooter, Phase Stalker etc) rather then direct face damage.

    0
  • HuntardHuntard's Avatar Rexxar 300 90 Posts Joined 12/03/2019
    Posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

    wolf rider is best used to replace life drinker instead of animal companion to make your deck extra aggro.

    Your face is already dead

    2
  • CableKnight's Avatar Content Squad Rexxar 345 187 Posts Joined 03/14/2019
    Posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Show Spoiler
    Quote From Bystekhilcar

    There's a difference between even a full face hunter deck, and a mindless SMOrc deck. A lot of the people on ladder play the deck like the latter, certainly, but the only reason to build towards that path is if you simply don't have the cards to build a stronger list.

    - Spellzerker is for Rapid Fire first and foremost, as AliRadicali suggests above. It also has a little more relevance in the later stages of the game because these hunter decks expect to lose the board at some point - and any juggles hitting minions are worthless to you at that point (and arguably even earlier given your game-plan).

    - Animal Companion wins out over Wolfrider because while the deck expects to lose the board at some point, there's no reason to just throw away all board pressure on turn 3 without really being pushed to do so. Note that with Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Stalker in these decks you have strong early-game board potential, and remember that controlling the board adds up to more damage over time than just throwing everything at face from turn 1.

    - I may be wrong (I haven't spent a lot of time on Hunter stats lately), but my assumption is that Timber Wolf is a two-of because Unleash is often your win condition. You want to be able to reliably burst out after losing board. Specifically in that circumstance, it's doubling your Unleash damage for only 1 additional mana outlay. There may be other benefits I'm not seeing because I don't have the deck in front of me right now.

    - EDIT: Didn't see the Bomb Toss question. My answer is I have no idea, other than maybe an alternate late-game plan trying to set up a big Spellzerker turn. It's absolutely not something I'd run, personally, unless I was teching against Mage specifically.

    - It's important to recognise that this deck is not a mindless SMOrc deck - and in fact, such decks don't really exist outside of budget ladder-grind decks. Your early game should absolutely be about early board, and getting out Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Hunter. Midgame is about minimizing what you have to let through on board while pushing more damage. Late game - which for this deck means around turn 7 or 8 - is where you accept the board is lost and make a push to set up lethal. Accept the loss of board to activate a big Wolf-Unleash and push through everything you can.
    Knowing when to trade and when to push is a fundamental skill of any aggro deck, and in spite of what memes will tell you, 'always face' is not an acceptable answer.

    no offense, but stop circlejerking over how face HUnter is "not as braindead as the plebs would have you believe)

    The deck is simple and to the point. You push as much face damage as fast as you can. Board only matters if it threatens your life or can heal your opponent. Dwarven Sharpshooter is only ever used against minions to stop your opponent from value trading so you get more face damage in.

    Every deck needs piloting to some extent, you're not special. the deck is literally 80% direct damage, it's as straight aggro as it gets.

    If you're playing Face Hunter for the board then you're probably losing more games than you have to. You don#t win by having the board, you win by your opponent not having enough to kill you before you finish him off.

    There are a substantial number of decks in the meta that can easily steamroll Face Hunter if you don't play for the board in the early game. Zoo Warlock, Galakrond Warrior, Mech Paladin, Token Druid, Pirate Warrior, etc. The deck is a lot more skill-testing than some would think.

    Gosh dang it, cards bad.

    4
  • troY's Avatar Funnel Cakes 205 271 Posts Joined 11/21/2019
    Posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

    Thanks for the answers guys. I'm trying to get to rank 10 this month, and face Hunter, despite the hate it gets, feels solid enough for me to do that.

    Does playing Aggro really mean a lack of skill? I've only been playing since november, but I bought 400 EUR worth of packs and can make every top tier deck. Zoo Warlock is another deck I enjoy, but I tried decks like Holy Wrath Paladin, Quest Priest or Highlander Mage and I just don't get the feel of those.

    0
  • DelkoHS's Avatar Child of Galakrond 370 469 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago
    Quote From troY

    Does playing Aggro really mean a lack of skill? I've only been playing since november, but I bought 400 EUR worth of packs and can make every top tier deck. Zoo Warlock is another deck I enjoy, but I tried decks like Holy Wrath Paladin, Quest Priest or Highlander Mage and I just don't get the feel of those.

    I don't really think so. I'm no pro player, but I did manage to get Legend once. However, I suck with Aggro decks and can't seem to win with them. It's just personal preference, just play what you like :)

    2
  • DoubleSummon's Avatar 910 1712 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

    Don't listen to people telling you to not play a specific deck cause it's "brain dead" or something like that, play whatever you like..

    Let's not make this hearthpwn where people cry about aggro being broken while playing galakround priest or another tier 10 deck that has 30% win rate against everything. And then they lose those 5 games against face hunter and go on a crusade about how brain dead is face hunter. /rant

    I suggest to you to watch some gameplay as people suggested here it's not just aiming all at face without question, you will have easier time knowing some mulligan strategy as well.

     

    4
  • troY's Avatar Funnel Cakes 205 271 Posts Joined 11/21/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

    Guys, maybe a dumb suggestion, but what about Doomsayer in Face Hunter? I've been trying it out in the 2 mana slot, over Spellzerker, Knife Juggler etc. Because some people mentioned that Face Hunter needs board control in the early turns in order to snowball to a win. Well, Doomsayer usually clears the board and gives me initiative. I once killed a board of Taunts with it so Leeroy could follow up with a Charge to the face, and I also won a game where it killed of my Leper Gnomes for the win.

    Maybe I'm thinking too much about it xd

     

     

    0
  • DelkoHS's Avatar Child of Galakrond 370 469 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

    Doomsayer makes Unleash combo's much weaker though, I would advice against it.

    0
  • JackJimson's Avatar Dragon Scholar 240 228 Posts Joined 11/19/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

    Agree on Doomsayer. It's bad on face hunter.

    As the face hunter, you are the aggressor and should use every bit of mana to push damage.

    Doomsayer is more a defensive tool. Also drawing it late when looking for damage for lethal can be back breaking.

    Additionally, I would argue against Elven Archers. I'd prolly take Leper Gnomes over them. They do 1 more damage and the targeted aspect matters less in a face deck. Also you need Tracking I think. You need to find damage for reach. The discarded cards don't really matter in a short game. 

    1
  • DelkoHS's Avatar Child of Galakrond 370 469 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

    Yeah Elven Archer seems like an option between Rapid Fire and Leper Gnome, but is worse then both.

    0
  • troY's Avatar Funnel Cakes 205 271 Posts Joined 11/21/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

    Okay I added Knife Juggler back instead of the Doomsayer. Elven Archer helps me contest the early board early (killing lackey's and stuff) while still being able to SMOrc. I'll keep her for now.

    Here are my stats for today with my list: https://imgur.com/11nGo9u

     

    https://imgur.com/11nGo9uhttps://imgur.com/11nGo9

    0
  • Bystekhilcar's Avatar 230 334 Posts Joined 09/02/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

    Initially I read 'Doomsayer? In face hunter?' and dismissed it with a derisive snort (I'm good at those). After stopping to think about it though... it's not actually a bad idea. Turn 3 has traditionally been Hunter's power turn, after all, and the main goal of Doomsayer is to snatch initiative heading into a power turn. 

    I'm not saying it's optimal, of course. It absolutely isn't - very few decks will be stronger on the board on turn 1 vs face hunter now (I think Warrior is about the only one that can do that), so all you're doing is removing your own advantage while also missing 2 damage from your hero power (or further developing). But it's not awful despite being utterly crazy, which I like.

    Re: 'does aggro mean a lack of skill', it absolutely does not. It's a statement you'll hear a lot, though, and usually from 'Control' players who don't actually know what Control means, and who lose every game to aggro while refusing to include anti-aggro techs. Just one of the usual excuses people make for things they don't know how to handle.

    I see you when you're sleeping; I'm gone before you wake

    I'm not as good as turn 4 Barnes; But I'm at least a Twilight Drake

    1
  • troY's Avatar Funnel Cakes 205 271 Posts Joined 11/21/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

    Another question. If I were to take Aggro Hunter to Wild, what cards should I add that isn't Baku the Mooneater? Is Bad Luck Albatross a good inclusion since Reno Jackson is in that mode?

    0
  • Zelgadis's Avatar Academy Sleuth 400 335 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From Bystekhilcar

    Re: 'does aggro mean a lack of skill', it absolutely does not. It's a statement you'll hear a lot, though, and usually from 'Control' players who don't actually know what Control means, and who lose every game to aggro while refusing to include anti-aggro techs. Just one of the usual excuses people make for things they don't know how to handle.

    Aggro vs aggro can be quite skill-testing, but people who never play aggro don't experience those match-ups. Aggro vs control often boils down to who draws better, since even if the control deck has anti-aggro tools, it needs to find them very quickly. There is a limit to how much anti-aggro tech you can run before you become powerless against greedier control decks.

    Quote From troY

    Another question. If I were to take Aggro Hunter to Wild, what cards should I add that isn't Baku the Mooneater? Is Bad Luck Albatross a good inclusion since Reno Jackson is in that mode?

    You're probably better off trying to kill your opponent before they draw Reno or are able to play him.

    1
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