Trump's f2p early access shreds haters' concerns

  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1175 1803 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago

    It seems Trump got his hands on an early access account so he could demonstrate the early stages of Mercenaries to the benighted masses eager fans. And OH BOY are the haters getting shut down bit by bit as new information trickles out.

    As I predicted, they had to allow new players to build a village without having a huge pile of gold saved up; otherwise, you just wouldn't be able to play. That's exactly how it works -- all the basic buildings are free. That's right -- FREE. No need to tap into your precious gold reserves and cannibalize your Hearthstone card pack fund, you stupid overreacting babies precious darlings.

    You get enough coins to upgrade some abilities before you even finish the tutorial. You also get some packs from bonus quests just for doing the first few bounties (which are extremely fast and easy), so all starting players will be well on their way to a nice robust collection.

    I'm sure haters are still gonna hate (because reasons), but those reasons just aren't going to hold any water anymore.

    -6
  • dapperdog's Avatar Dragon Scholar 1810 4633 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago

    Man, to deserve a full thread opened just to stick one up on a group of people on the internet who has apparently been harsh on blizz's new toy. Its like these guys spat into your cup of coffee one day and you swore to never let them get away with it.

    I personally thought that many were pulling their hairs off their head over something that's only distantly related to hearthstone proper, when in reality is mostly a pve game, but given how mercs were announced, you can't really blame them for their skepticism. There's always the chance that blizz caught on to the negative press (I mean its up on pcgamer too, its hardly just random guys shouting on the internet) and then tweaked it before unveiling. Either way, if mercs is up for a nice start, that's good for everyone; no need to rub it up anyone's noses.

    19
  • Marega's Avatar 620 872 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago

    Hey man, im just hyped that the new game seems cool, tho i reckon the boards are a bit dull but i guess i can understand that

    4
  • h0lysatan's Avatar Zombie 1065 782 Posts Joined 12/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From dapperdog

    Man, to deserve a full thread opened just to stick one up on a group of people on the internet who has apparently been harsh on blizz's new toy. Its like these guys spat into your cup of coffee one day and you swore to never let them get away with it.

    I personally thought that many were pulling their hairs off their head over something that's only distantly related to hearthstone proper, when in reality is mostly a pve game, but given how mercs were announced, you can't really blame them for their skepticism. There's always the chance that blizz caught on to the negative press (I mean its up on pcgamer too, its hardly just random guys shouting on the internet) and then tweaked it before unveiling. Either way, if mercs is up for a nice start, that's good for everyone; no need to rub it up anyone's noses.

    nicely said.

    Knowledge is Power

    2
  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1175 1803 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From dapperdog

    Man, to deserve a full thread opened just to stick one up on a group of people on the internet who has apparently been harsh on blizz's new toy. Its like these guys spat into your cup of coffee one day and you swore to never let them get away with it.

    For one thing, the video contains important information that absolutely does deserve a new thread.

    But yes, I do have a huge problem with the constant stream of negativity from people who don't even have all the facts. I fully recognize that Blizzard is somewhat to blame for not providing those facts sooner, but that doesn't excuse this ridiculous repeat of the Reward Track backlash, which was also completely unfounded.

    Trying to cancel a game mode before it's released -- before we even have answers to our questions about it -- is more harmful to Hearthstone than any of the stuff people were claiming Mercenaries was guilty of.

    -7
  • Riffraff's Avatar 755 368 Posts Joined 04/30/2020
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago

    I am hyped for the new mode, too! Looks fun, and another way to engage with mostly well-loved characters from the old WoW universe. I also like the Pokemon-esque collection/upgrade your fighters element to this mode.

    I took time to watch each of the three reveal videos posted on OoC - I would first recommend Trump's - he has the best grasp on the mechanics etc. (and the new mode in general), although Slyssa is the only one who showed (limited) PVP at the end of her video.

    FWIW: I plan to be fully F2P for mercenaries ( I buy pre-orders and tavern pass normally). 

    2
  • Marega's Avatar 620 872 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From FortyDust
    Quote From dapperdog

    Man, to deserve a full thread opened just to stick one up on a group of people on the internet who has apparently been harsh on blizz's new toy. Its like these guys spat into your cup of coffee one day and you swore to never let them get away with it.

    For one thing, the video contains important information that absolutely does deserve a new thread.

    But yes, I do have a huge problem with the constant stream of negativity from people who don't even have all the facts. I fully recognize that Blizzard is somewhat to blame for not providing those facts sooner, but that doesn't excuse this ridiculous repeat of the Reward Track backlash, which was also completely unfounded.

    Trying to cancel a game mode before it's released -- before we even have answers to our questions about it -- is more harmful to Hearthstone than any of the stuff people were claiming Mercenaries was guilty of.

    Hold up. The rewards track backlash was unfounded? Are you serious? You cant be. Thats the one thing that everyone agreed upon at the time.

    6
  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 1705 1725 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From Marega
    ...
     

    Hold up. The rewards track backlash was unfounded? Are you serious? You cant be. Thats the one thing that everyone agreed upon at the time.

    Not everyone. Some - myself included - thought it was probably perfectly fine to begin with but Blizz had handled the communication very poorly. Given we now get quite a lot more per expansion than we used to, it indeed seems likely that the original version was going to be no worse than what we previously had. So yeah, I appreciate the extra goodies we got after the backlash, but it probably was unfounded. 

    The bit that troubles me most about that affair is how visceral and rude the community became, and they ended up being rewarded for it. Blizz failed on communication, absolutely, but the community looks more like the villain in hindsight.

    The same thing is repeating itself to some degree with Mercs. It looks decent, perhaps not to everyone, but no game has ever appealed to everyone so that's fine. The communication has been less than perfect, but there are still several weeks left to communicate in, and they had to deal with the sexual harassment scandal at the start. And some in the community are throwing around hate for no good reason; a lack of knowledge does not entitle them to act as though their cynical assumptions are true.

    7
  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1175 1803 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From Marega
     

    Hold up. The rewards track backlash was unfounded? Are you serious? You cant be. Thats the one thing that everyone agreed upon at the time.

    You probably believe that because you bought into the negativity without actually getting the facts. "Everyone agrees" is the worst possible reason to adopt any opinion. That's how the worst parts of human history have happened, and it's also why I have such a big problem with the hate bandwagon.

    If you actually looked into the facts about the Reward Track, you'd know that not much changed in the revamp. They just moved some of the rewards around to make it more obvious that it was better than the old system. The first iteration was already fine, but people were too willing to assume the worst, just like they are doing with Mercenaries.

    1
  • TriMay's Avatar 430 130 Posts Joined 01/15/2020
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From FortyDust
    Quote From Marega

    Hold up. The rewards track backlash was unfounded? Are you serious? You cant be. Thats the one thing that everyone agreed upon at the time.

    You probably believe that because you bought into the negativity without actually getting the facts. "Everyone agrees" is the worst possible reason to adopt any opinion. That's how the worst parts of human history have happened, and it's also why I have such a big problem with the hate bandwagon.

    If you actually looked into the facts about the Reward Track, you'd know that not much changed in the revamp. They just moved some of the rewards around to make it more obvious that it was better than the old system. The first iteration was already fine, but people were too willing to assume the worst, just like they are doing with Mercenaries.

    Okay but here are the facts.

    In the first iteration, you were not able to get more gold than before with the same amount of time.

    Even after the buff, quests objectively give less gold on average, the only reason you get more gold now is the existence of more quests, the weekly quests, which only give out barely more than old quests did but you only get 3 of them per week.

     

    Now as for Mercenaries, I see a terrible design choice in how mercenaries are crafted in terms of PVP and the collection in general.  You can't see your opponents abilities in PVP, you're expected to just know them, and you cannot see abilities of mercenaries in the collection without crafting it first.  You're expected to guess and hope you're not wasting resources.

    Single player is fine though, looks whatever to me but I can see people enjoying that

    -8
  • linkblade91's Avatar Global Moderator 1640 2175 Posts Joined 02/09/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From TriMay

    Now as for Mercenaries, I see a terrible design choice in how mercenaries are crafted in terms of PVP and the collection in general.  You can't see your opponents abilities in PVP, you're expected to just know them, and you cannot see abilities of mercenaries in the collection without crafting it first.  You're expected to guess and hope you're not wasting resources.

    Single player is fine though, looks whatever to me but I can see people enjoying that

    Isn't that true of traditional Hearthstone, as well? You're expected to know on some level what your opponents are capable of, either by research or prior experience. When you encounter someone running Jaraxxus, you'll either know beforehand exactly what J-rax can do, or you'll find out shortly; the same thing happens when you encounter a player on the Ranked ladder.

    As for not being able to see abilities in the Collection, did this occur in an early-access video where we know it to be true? I agree that it would be a stupid design choice, but I don't believe they would simply not let you preview a Merc character at all. Even if it were true, such things can be fixed between now and release *shrugs*

    If you have the time, you should totally check out our weekly Hearthstone card design competitions! :D

    4
  • dapperdog's Avatar Dragon Scholar 1810 4633 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago

    Quote From FortyDust

    Show Spoiler
    Quote From dapperdog

    Man, to deserve a full thread opened just to stick one up on a group of people on the internet who has apparently been harsh on blizz's new toy. Its like these guys spat into your cup of coffee one day and you swore to never let them get away with it.

    For one thing, the video contains important information that absolutely does deserve a new thread.

    But yes, I do have a huge problem with the constant stream of negativity from people who don't even have all the facts. I fully recognize that Blizzard is somewhat to blame for not providing those facts sooner, but that doesn't excuse this ridiculous repeat of the Reward Track backlash, which was also completely unfounded.

    Trying to cancel a game mode before it's released – before we even have answers to our questions about it – is more harmful to Hearthstone than any of the stuff people were claiming Mercenaries was guilty of.

    The rewards track case is a good example of where community backlash has forced blizz's hand into doing better. They promised something and they should damned well be taken up to task for objectively failing at providing what they've promised. The first iteration was absolutely not fine; not only did they provide packs from rotating expansions late into the track (which more or less invalidates the cards, because what the hell is anyone supposed to do with a DoD pack one month away from rotation), the total gold gained was also far less than it is today (largely because apparently they were counting in the xp from achievements when doing their calculations, underestimating how difficult these things are to grind). All in all, I credit the community for these changes we are all enjoying today, even as I don't endorse the vitriol of some of them who would harass people over it.

    I don't like how some people are tacitly harassing others for any reason, and the language used by some others is wholly inappropriate at times, but that does not remove the fact that they, as consumers, are merely reacting in their own interest. Companies will do what's right for them, its up to us to also do the same for ourselves.

    Also, a short comment on what you responded to Marega; the internet is a collective of people without any clear leader, and that's what set it apart from all the disasters in history, which can only be made possible whenever a community let a small group of people decide their lives for them.

    8
  • Suchti0352's Avatar Hero of Warcraft 775 806 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago

    Quote From Author
    (largely because apparently they were counting in the xp from achievements when doing their calculations, underestimating how difficult these things are to grind)

    I think you mixed something up here. They were originally counting the event bonus xp, which they scrapped when reworking the track. So objectively failing can't be said for sure, since we have no Idea how high the planed event XP was supposed to be.

    "We originally included event reward XP when calculating our intended cadence of rewards. We’ve rethought this and recognize that the rewards track should stand on its own and not require event XP bonuses, making rewards predictable and consistent across an expansion."

    https://outof.cards/hearthstone/2302-blizzard-responds-to-the-hearthstone-rewards-track-less-xp-required-gold-bonus-next-week-more-xp-gains

    2
  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1175 1803 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From dapperdog

    Also, a short comment on what you responded to Marega; the internet is a collective of people without any clear leader, and that's what set it apart from all the disasters in history, which can only be made possible whenever a community let a small group of people decide their lives for them.

    I would argue that the Hearthstone community is a collection of both individuals and tribes, and those tribes do have very clear leaders. The Reward Track toxicity was headed up by Zeddy and exacerbated by Regis and Dexxter, among others. All three of those people presented a very incomplete picture of the Track because they lacked information -- much as you just did. You completely glossed over the special event XP that we never saw and never will because they changed the track before we got to that point. We were told that this (among other things) would have made a huge difference in the calculations. I'm sure there is other information about the original track that will never see daylight because it's all a moot point now.

    As a company, Blizzard is surely out for itself, but trust me on this -- they know they cannot get away with outright lying to us. They know their fans are highly suspicious and will crunch every number possible to verify any and every claim Blizzard makes. They know they are wandering into a PR minefield every time they make a public statement of any kind. There is simply nothing to be gained by lying when you are under that kind of scrutiny -- especially when the lies are as easy to catch as they would have been with the Reward Track.

    Perhaps you can credit the community for getting more out of the track -- we are certainly getting a LOT more gold now than we did under the old system, whereas the first iteration was said (by Blizzard) to be only slightly more for most people. But the collective tantrum was still grossly premature. The correct time to take Blizzard to task would have been AFTER one complete track, when everyone would have had solid data to compare to the gold of previous expansions. If the track had actually given less gold than everyone hoped and expected, I'm sure Blizzard would have been appropriately embarrassed and would have made up the difference. If they didn't, they would stand to lose a lot of players for good reason.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't scrutinize and question. I'm just saying nothing good ever comes from jumping to conclusions and getting hateful based on incomplete information.

    -3
  • TriMay's Avatar 430 130 Posts Joined 01/15/2020
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From linkblade91
    Quote From TriMay

    Now as for Mercenaries, I see a terrible design choice in how mercenaries are crafted in terms of PVP and the collection in general.  You can't see your opponents abilities in PVP, you're expected to just know them, and you cannot see abilities of mercenaries in the collection without crafting it first.  You're expected to guess and hope you're not wasting resources.

    Single player is fine though, looks whatever to me but I can see people enjoying that

    Isn't that true of traditional Hearthstone, as well? You're expected to know on some level what your opponents are capable of, either by research or prior experience. When you encounter someone running Jaraxxus, you'll either know beforehand exactly what J-rax can do, or you'll find out shortly; the same thing happens when you encounter a player on the Ranked ladder.

    As for not being able to see abilities in the Collection, did this occur in an early-access video where we know it to be true? I agree that it would be a stupid design choice, but I don't believe they would simply not let you preview a Merc character at all. Even if it were true, such things can be fixed between now and release *shrugs*

    Kripps video, but it's not impossible that he just missed the button to view Merc abilities before crafting.  I didn't see it myself when watching it though

    And I would argue, with this type of gameplay, it feels a bit dumb that multiplayer doesn't let you see what your opponent can at least do, especially when singleplayer lets you see exactly what they are going to do.

    0
  • dapperdog's Avatar Dragon Scholar 1810 4633 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From FortyDust
    Quote From dapperdog

    Also, a short comment on what you responded to Marega; the internet is a collective of people without any clear leader, and that's what set it apart from all the disasters in history, which can only be made possible whenever a community let a small group of people decide their lives for them.

    I would argue that the Hearthstone community is a collection of both individuals and tribes, and those tribes do have very clear leaders. The Reward Track toxicity was headed up by Zeddy and exacerbated by Regis and Dexxter, among others. All three of those people presented a very incomplete picture of the Track because they lacked information -- much as you just did. You completely glossed over the special event XP that we never saw and never will because they changed the track before we got to that point. We were told that this (among other things) would have made a huge difference in the calculations. I'm sure there is other information about the original track that will never see daylight because it's all a moot point now.

    As a company, Blizzard is surely out for itself, but trust me on this -- they know they cannot get away with outright lying to us. They know their fans are highly suspicious and will crunch every number possible to verify any and every claim Blizzard makes. They know they are wandering into a PR minefield every time they make a public statement of any kind. There is simply nothing to be gained by lying when you are under that kind of scrutiny.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't scrutinize and question. I'm just saying nothing good ever comes from jumping to conclusions and getting hateful based on incomplete information.

    Alright, Im not willing to delve further into this because it'll inevitably lead to at least 4 extra posts on the topic. Suffice to say I'll let others be the judge in this. The reward track now is better than when it came in, that's a fact, and if community heat is at least partially responsible for it Im happy enough that it happened.

    But I will note in defense of the three you mentioned.

    Zeddy, Regis and Dekkster aren't any presumed leader of what you would termed as 'track toxicity'. The community went to alot of streamers asking for support; many were either unwilling to do anything or even take blizz up to task. Fair play to them, but its clear that no one was waiting on Zeddy to give out commands, and even he wasn't asking people to uninstall or harass anyone.

    Im surprised you'd group the three together when both Regis and Dekkster, while being one of the earliest to address the issue, posted only 1 video each and it has been widely accepted as a balanced viewpoint (incidentally both Regis and Dekkster are still in blizz's good books unlike Zeddy, which will more or less show the difference between them).

    4
  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1175 1803 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From dapperdog

    Im surprised you'd group the three together when both Regis and Dekkster, while being one of the earliest to address the issue, posted only 1 video each and it has been widely accepted as a balanced viewpoint (incidentally both Regis and Dekkster are still in blizz's good books unlike Zeddy, which will more or less show the difference between them).

    I agree that Zeddy deserves the lion's share of the blame, but Regis and Dexxster both based their videos entirely on his analysis without doing any calculations themselves or considering what information might be missing. To me, that's pretty irresponsible and feels like pandering to the hater-base.

    -3
  • Zelgadis's Avatar Wizard 950 733 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago

    That the early game is generous doesn't really say much: even the most manipulative pay-to-win games start generous and only require more and more payments to keep up with other players in the end game, when players have already invested their time and attention into the game.

    Given how aggressively games with gacha mechanics are often monetized, I do understand why people are concerned about Mercenaries. With other Hearthstone modes increasingly moving to monetizing cosmetics instead of things that affect game play, I think Team 5 deserves the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think the doubt itself is unfounded.

    In particular, I'm not a fan of expensive pre-orders. For physical games, pre-orders serve a purpose: it gives a company an indication of how many units they should produce in the first production run. For digital games, pre-orders are just a way to cash in on hype, which isn't in the players' best interest. Maybe it's asking a bit much for the games industry to unlearn all its bad habits at once, but I do hope pre-orders will go out of fashion some day.

    5
  • Marega's Avatar 620 872 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From FortyDust
    Quote From dapperdog

    Also, a short comment on what you responded to Marega; the internet is a collective of people without any clear leader, and that's what set it apart from all the disasters in history, which can only be made possible whenever a community let a small group of people decide their lives for them.

    I would argue that the Hearthstone community is a collection of both individuals and tribes, and those tribes do have very clear leaders. The Reward Track toxicity was headed up by Zeddy and exacerbated by Regis and Dexxter, among others. All three of those people presented a very incomplete picture of the Track because they lacked information -- much as you just did. You completely glossed over the special event XP that we never saw and never will because they changed the track before we got to that point. We were told that this (among other things) would have made a huge difference in the calculations. I'm sure there is other information about the original track that will never see daylight because it's all a moot point now.

    As a company, Blizzard is surely out for itself, but trust me on this -- they know they cannot get away with outright lying to us. They know their fans are highly suspicious and will crunch every number possible to verify any and every claim Blizzard makes. They know they are wandering into a PR minefield every time they make a public statement of any kind. There is simply nothing to be gained by lying when you are under that kind of scrutiny -- especially when the lies are as easy to catch as they would have been with the Reward Track.

    Perhaps you can credit the community for getting more out of the track -- we are certainly getting a LOT more gold now than we did under the old system, whereas the first iteration was said (by Blizzard) to be only slightly more for most people. But the collective tantrum was still grossly premature. The correct time to take Blizzard to task would have been AFTER one complete track, when everyone would have had solid data to compare to the gold of previous expansions. If the track had actually given less gold than everyone hoped and expected, I'm sure Blizzard would have been appropriately embarrassed and would have made up the difference. If they didn't, they would stand to lose a lot of players for good reason.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't scrutinize and question. I'm just saying nothing good ever comes from jumping to conclusions and getting hateful based on incomplete information.

    So now you claim to know more and better than 3 content creators that have their livelihood bound by this game?

     

    What happened to you FortyDust? You used to be cool...

    -1
  • h0lysatan's Avatar Zombie 1065 782 Posts Joined 12/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 2 months ago
    Quote From FortyDust

    the haters getting shut down bit by bit as new information trickles out.

    You vs the internet. Let's see whos gonna win.

    Besides, Everyone has their own opinion. Me too. I'm gonna say Blizzard has failed in terms of communications (silence for weeks), and bad promotional showcase (shoving expensive bundles to everyone). You could choose to be offended by what I said, or ignore it completely. I stand with what I said. If anyone agrees, then my opinion has spark a little joy. Maybe spark a bit of convo too.

    If you disagree, well that's up to you too.

     

    Knowledge is Power

    4
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