How to nerf Priest?

  • Maurice's Avatar
    Eldritch Horror 520 158 Posts Joined 07/12/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    Priest is completely broken in Wild. Here some suggestions how to balance it.

    Wave of Apathy -> 2 mana

    Mass Hysteria -> 6 mana

    Psychic Scream -> 8 mana

    Palm Reading -> 4 mana

    Archmage Vargoth -> 5 mana

    Raise Dead -> 1 mana

    Spirit Lash -> 3 mana

     

    And no I don`t vote for one of these nerfs, I vote for ALL of them.

    PS: Over 40% of my meta at rank diamond 5 is Priest.

    I see you!

    -8
  • Koetti's Avatar
    Content Squad 1010 747 Posts Joined 11/21/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Quote From Maurice

    Priest is completely broken in Wild. Here some suggestions how to balance it.

    Mass Hysteria -> 6 mana

    Psychic Scream -> 8 mana

    Palm Reading -> 4 mana

    Archmage Vargoth -> 5 mana

    Raise Dead -> 1 mana

    Spirit Lash -> 3 mana

     

    And no I don`t vote for one of these nerfs, I vote for ALL of them.

    Maybe I'm a bit biased as a Priest Main, but ... isn't that a bit much? Like, I get that some archetypes can be very frustrating to play against, but that's not a reason to completely butcher a class.

     

    Judging them individualy though, I could get behind your changes to Raise Dead and Psychic Scream. These cards are REALLY strong, and I wouldn't be surprised if those nerfs might become reality.

    I'd say that increasing Mass Hysteria's Mana cost might kill that card. At 6 it would compete with Lightbomb and Dragonfire Potion, which are, at least imo, more reliable.

    Same goes for Spirit Lash. 3 Mana for 1 damage AoE is just not good enough. Healing most of the time doesn't really matter, what you want is cheap and efficient removal for early game.

     

    No real opinion on Palm Reading; delete Vargoth

    Long, drawn-out Control Match-ups with Boardclears en masse and an unbelievable amount of greedy cards?

    Sign me up!

    1
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 865 1465 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    I agree with most suggestions.

    If they actually nerfed Palm Reading, I'd even be ok with keeping board clears as they are now.

    The card can easily be compared with Wild Growth - except Priest is not already overnerfed because they don't normally have ramp.

    -2
  • dapperdog's Avatar
    1115 1826 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    Priest may have a billion answers to boards, but wild barely cares anyway since there's just so many ways of reloading or killing players without boards. When raza was nerfed, hardly anyone had problems with the class, except the usual big priest issues, which can be countered, and it was never going to beat mage in the first place.

    Perhaps consider playing Zul'Drak Ritualist instead if big priest is a constant threat. If its raza priest that's the problem, then I sympathize because the only true counter takes 2 cards to do. But the nerfs you suggested will be more impactful to standard, where priest is really just a dumpster class, and that's a real non starter in my opinion

    -2
  • AngryShuckie's Avatar
    945 810 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Quote From Koetti
    delete Vargoth

    This. Or, find a way to move him into a class so he's not gone completely, but priest can't continue to abuse him.

    Here is a series of choices that could be believable (even if it's exceedingly unlikely):

    1. Move Sorcerer's Apprentice to the Hall of Fame.
      1. This should have happened a long time ago.
    2. Take Archmage Antonidas with her because everyone knows he won't be used in Standard without the Apprentice around.
      1. Similar to how Velen was HoF'd when most of the damage dealing priest spells were removed.
    3. Then move Kalecgos from RoS to Classic.
      1. He's an appropriate character at a sensible power level for Classic.
    4. Finally have Vargoth take Kalecgos' place as a mage card in RoS.
    5. Hear the screams of joy from the Wild players.

    Job done. Now, about Raza...

    2
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    795 720 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    Why is Raza not on your list?

    Looking at it long-term, the only real way to fix big priest is to add some proper graveyard mechanic to the game. Which, in all fairness, will likely never happen.

    The resurrect mechanic is just too easy to exploit and big priest has become this cockroach of an archetype that'll just pop up out of nowhere whenever it gets support.  Ready to do the exact same thing it's been doing for the past however many years now. Whether you nerf a few of its cards or not.

     

    Also, your suggestion will kill any and all forms of competitive viability Anduin has, and will ever have. The literal only upside to your proposal is that Rexxar will finally have a friend all the way down at wild's dumpster tier.

    -1
  • doingtheobvious's Avatar
    Transfer Student 800 355 Posts Joined 06/01/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    Most of the tools that you listed are within reasonable paramaters of Wild. I will agree that Palm Reading is strong, it needs to have it's mana increased or only reduce the cost of one spell in your hand if it has to stay at 3 mana.

    Raise Dead is broken at 0 mana but remember the game is balanced around Standard and in Standard Raise Dead is only good, not game-breakingly so like it is in Wild.

    postscript: If you want to sweep the leg of Res Priest, you really should take a closer look at bigger offenders like Resurrect and Eternal Servitude allowing for that archetype to mana cheat huge minions for relatively not much mana.

    次回まで、インターネットカウボーイ。

    1
  • Thraxus's Avatar
    785 115 Posts Joined 05/08/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    In my personal opinion Priest is fine with the exception of the Rez archetype. The underlying problem here is that HS does not really has a proper graveyard mechanic like Magic for example and lacks proper counter cards. At its present state most Rez cards are simply mana cheating tools with little counter opportunities. Just take Resurrect, which basically is 2 mana summon a huge minion, or Mass Resurrection/card] which is basically the same at a higher level. Combine this with all the stalling and copy cards and you have a quite annoying archetype.

    That said I don't think any balancing will happen in wild. 

    English is not my native language, so please excuse occasional mistakes

    2
  • dapperdog's Avatar
    1115 1826 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Quote From AngryShuckie

     

    1. Then move Kalecgos from RoS to Classic.
      1. He's an appropriate character at a sensible power level for Classic.

    Is he though? Its a must kill card with 12 health, is impactful the same turn you play him, and is miles ahead of Archmage Antonidas. Also, team5 would have the additional burden of having to design spells around this guy in every expansion, so I wouldn't want him permanently in standard.

    -1
  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 560 263 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    I'd say just nerf Shadowreaper Anduin. His Hero Power and Spawn of Shadows are what break Reno Priest. Raza is fine, because a free Hero Power is not as big of an upside, it's just Priest DK is WAY too good to have it's Cost permanently reduced. Without DK or Spawn being this absurd, Reno Priest becomes just another grindy control deck that is possible to create in Wild.

    But then you are still left with Darkglare Warlock and Secret Mage, so if Reno Priest was to get sinked, so would prematurely be the other decks.

    Hearthcards deck creating enthusiast. Also previously known on Hearthpwn as Cooler39140 and Huoyan.

    1
  • AngryShuckie's Avatar
    945 810 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Quote From dapperdog
    Quote From AngryShuckie

     

    1. Then move Kalecgos from RoS to Classic.
      1. He's an appropriate character at a sensible power level for Classic.

    Is he though? Its a must kill card with 12 health, is impactful the same turn you play him, and is miles ahead of Archmage Antonidas. Also, team5 would have the additional burden of having to design spells around this guy in every expansion, so I wouldn't want him permanently in standard.

    Why would they need to design spells around him? You cannot cheat any spells out early because you have to wait 'til turn 10 to play him, and on that turn you can only cast 1 spell. As far as 10 mana cards go, his immediate impact is pretty tame. The only thing they'd have to avoid printing is a minion (not even a spell) that pulls him out of your hand/deck, but that's a tiny bit of design space that is very easily avoided.

    And while killing a 12 health minion on turn 10 may be non-trivial, you still have all the mana crystals you could ever need, so it's not like having to deal with a 12 health minion on one of the early turns. It is no bigger a problem than trying to remove Ysera or Malygos, and they cost 9 mana.

    Kalecgos' usage over his time in Standard (which, keep in mind, started off the back of the low-power Year of the Raven) has been pretty much exactly what you'd want of a Classic legendary: present, but usually left out of decks. That was even with dragon synergies being relevant in mage!

    1
  • dapperdog's Avatar
    1115 1826 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Quote From AngryShuckie
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    Quote From dapperdog
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    1. Then move Kalecgos from RoS to Classic.
      1. He's an appropriate character at a sensible power level for Classic.

    Is he though? Its a must kill card with 12 health, is impactful the same turn you play him, and is miles ahead of Archmage Antonidas. Also, team5 would have the additional burden of having to design spells around this guy in every expansion, so I wouldn't want him permanently in standard.

    Why would they need to design spells around him? You cannot cheat any spells out early because you have to wait 'til turn 10 to play him, and on that turn you can only cast 1 spell. As far as 10 mana cards go, his immediate impact is pretty tame. The only thing they'd have to avoid printing is a minion (not even a spell) that pulls him out of your hand/deck, but that's a tiny bit of design space that is very easily avoided.

    And while killing a 12 health minion on turn 10 may be non-trivial, you still have all the mana crystals you could ever need, so it's not like having to deal with a 12 health minion on one of the early turns. It is no bigger a problem than trying to remove Ysera or Malygos, and they cost 9 mana.

    Kalecgos' usage over his time in Standard (which, keep in mind, started off the back of the low-power Year of the Raven) has been pretty much exactly what you'd want of a Classic legendary: present, but usually left out of decks. That was even with dragon synergies being relevant in mage!

    He's been in highlander mage pretty much since Uldum, and its pretty hard to say he's not one of the winners of that deck. All its needed is for the meta to slow down slightly and he wouldn't be too far from being an auto include. Any midrange deck can easily fit this in.

    Your point in the design aspect, I can sort of understand. It is after all a 10 cost card. But I still think he's not something I'd like to see in evergreen. Blizzard, frost nova, and flamestrike are already very powerful swings cards on their own with kalecgos, and I'd hate to see more cards introduced making this a consistent feature.

    I doubt team5 would be removing Archmage Antonidas anyway. In the right deck, he's still a very powerful card, and I think he still fits your criteria for a classic legendary. You dont need apprentice to make this card good, its already a decent card with frost nova.

    -1
  • AngryShuckie's Avatar
    945 810 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Quote From dapperdog
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    1. Then move Kalecgos from RoS to Classic.
      1. He's an appropriate character at a sensible power level for Classic.

    Is he though? Its a must kill card with 12 health, is impactful the same turn you play him, and is miles ahead of Archmage Antonidas. Also, team5 would have the additional burden of having to design spells around this guy in every expansion, so I wouldn't want him permanently in standard.

    Why would they need to design spells around him? You cannot cheat any spells out early because you have to wait 'til turn 10 to play him, and on that turn you can only cast 1 spell. As far as 10 mana cards go, his immediate impact is pretty tame. The only thing they'd have to avoid printing is a minion (not even a spell) that pulls him out of your hand/deck, but that's a tiny bit of design space that is very easily avoided.

    And while killing a 12 health minion on turn 10 may be non-trivial, you still have all the mana crystals you could ever need, so it's not like having to deal with a 12 health minion on one of the early turns. It is no bigger a problem than trying to remove Ysera or Malygos, and they cost 9 mana.

    Kalecgos' usage over his time in Standard (which, keep in mind, started off the back of the low-power Year of the Raven) has been pretty much exactly what you'd want of a Classic legendary: present, but usually left out of decks. That was even with dragon synergies being relevant in mage!

    He's been in highlander mage pretty much since Uldum, and its pretty hard to say he's not one of the winners of that deck. All its needed is for the meta to slow down slightly and he wouldn't be too far from being an auto include. Any midrange deck can easily fit this in.

    Your point in the design aspect, I can sort of understand. It is after all a 10 cost card. But I still think he's not something I'd like to see in evergreen. Blizzard, frost nova, and flamestrike are already very powerful swings cards on their own with kalecgos, and I'd hate to see more cards introduced making this a consistent feature.

    I doubt team5 would be removing Archmage Antonidas anyway. In the right deck, he's still a very powerful card, and I think he still fits your criteria for a classic legendary. You dont need apprentice to make this card good, its already a decent card with frost nova.

    Well I haven't seen a mage play him in ages. I actually don't remember when it last happened, it was so long ago. Perhaps I have just been beating highlander mages before they can play him? That seems a bit unlikely as I prefer my games to go beyond turn 10. Regardless, I'll take your word for it that he is played more than I have seen him.

    Certainly the dominance of aggro this year has made it tougher to play him, but isn't that more evidence that he is fine? A turn 10 high-ish tempo turn (which is pretty piddly compared to what many classes can do) is always going to be limited by the fact you have to wait 'til turn 10 to do it. I guess it's a similar story for Antonidas + Frost Nova: there's enough removal in Standard at all times that taking turn 10 to threaten something next turn if a minion survives is just not a big problem. 

    For the record, I'm fine with saying Antonidas is good without the Apprentice, but that 'good' is historically not good enough to have any meta significance. The only time I remember him being used in the meta outside of an Exodia deck was to turn spare parts into extra reach in mech mage.

    Anyway, let's shelve this discussion lest we accidentally turn a priest thread into a mage one.

    2
  • ArchSpike's Avatar
    435 100 Posts Joined 06/24/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From Neoguli

    I'd say just nerf Shadowreaper Anduin. His Hero Power and Spawn of Shadows are what break Reno Priest. Raza is fine, because a free Hero Power is not as big of an upside, it's just Priest DK is WAY too good to have it's Cost permanently reduced. Without DK or Spawn being this absurd, Reno Priest becomes just another grindy control deck that is possible to create in Wild.

    But then you are still left with Darkglare Warlock and Secret Mage, so if Reno Priest was to get sinked, so would prematurely be the other decks.

    ^this!

    I keep seeing people complaining about Raza but a 0-cost hero power really is only broken when you can repeatedly use it during a turn. Would love to play wild highlander galakrond priest or wild highlander obelisk priest without it just being a worse version of shadowreaper priest :/

    0
  • Zyella's Avatar
    Valeera 410 236 Posts Joined 10/16/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From Maurice

    Priest is completely broken in Wild. Here some suggestions how to balance it.

    Wave of Apathy -> 2 mana

    Mass Hysteria -> 6 mana

    Psychic Scream -> 8 mana

    Palm Reading -> 4 mana

    Archmage Vargoth -> 5 mana

    Raise Dead -> 1 mana

    Spirit Lash -> 3 mana

     

    And no I don`t vote for one of these nerfs, I vote for ALL of them.

    PS: Over 40% of my meta at rank diamond 5 is Priest.

    Youre even worse at nerfs then blizzard and thats saying alot

    3
  • PopeNeia's Avatar
    Darkmaster 480 554 Posts Joined 07/06/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    I prefer to just delete the class.

    This ain't no place for a hero

    -4
  • anchorm4n's Avatar
    1325 1161 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 1 week, 4 days ago

    Showerthought: What about making Raise Dead deal 5 damage to your hero? 3 damage is a joke for Priest and Warlock has the Soul Fragment mechanic as well as Man'ari Mosher.

    Double the pride, double the fall.

    -1
  • Zyella's Avatar
    Valeera 410 236 Posts Joined 10/16/2020
    Posted 1 week, 4 days ago
    Quote From anchorm4n

    Showerthought: What about making Raise Dead deal 5 damage to your hero? 3 damage is a joke for Priest and Warlock has the Soul Fragment mechanic as well as Man'ari Mosher.

    IF talkign abotu wil soul fragments or manari mosher arent used liek at all.

    Warlocks healign is reno , occasiaon healbot or lfiestela from spellstone/ancklebiter,armor of some kazzakus pots and izperhys. Not any fragments or manari.

    0
  • anchorm4n's Avatar
    1325 1161 Posts Joined 03/13/2019
    Posted 1 week, 4 days ago

    I was talking about the Warlock lists in Standard. Raise Dead will be around for some time and if my suggestion for a nerf was implemented, Warlock needs tools to compensate the increased damage. Wild is another thing, but maybe 2 more damage could help to keep Darkglare Warlock in check.

    Double the pride, double the fall.

    0
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    795 720 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 week, 4 days ago
    Quote From anchorm4n

    I was talking about the Warlock lists in Standard. Raise Dead will be around for some time and if my suggestion for a nerf was implemented, Warlock needs tools to compensate the increased damage. Wild is another thing, but maybe 2 more damage could help to keep Darkglare Warlock in check.

    That'll do quite the opposite as it'll make them have their Molten giants come out even faster.

    Not a fan.

    0
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