Ranking System is problemtic

  • AliRadicali's Avatar 460 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From Asprobourboulis

    Do you know who else is stuck on the "75%" floor of this outdated image? Players who have abandoned the game for good and those who deserted or don't climb the ladder with their quest farming/"play-a-friend" accounts etc. That 100 million milestone that Hearthstone achieved some years ago, counts those accounts too. I know for a fact that, if you ever tried deleting your Hearthstone account, you would be asked for some form of ID to send them in order to process your demand. So, not carying anymore, they just leave and unsubscribe from mailing lists, having nothing to do with the game anymore and Blizzard gets to boast about their ever-growing, loyal fan base.

    What I care about, is the new people who hear about this popular CCG as well as the community that sustain it, the guides and support outside of it etc, and get super-hyped to start a fresh account only to have their expectations crashed by examples like these. I do want new people to join in and feel valuable, protected and treated with respect from the game itself most importantly. If they do feel like it, they are going to support both the devs and the community with any way possible and the game will flourish. I'm saddened to say that my friend is not going to be one of them; "To hell with him", right? "This must be a very particular case of a low-motivated folk". Or is it?

    Your buddy shouldn't expect to be able to compete at the highest level right out of the gate and with barely any cards to his collection, especially if he's had experience with other card games. If I enter a constructed tournament in MtG with a janky budget deck I should have every expectation to lose to people who invested the time and money to get all the necessary cards. Just like Magic has Limited formats, so too does HS have Arena, where you fight with cards you drafted for that run, and collections are irrelevant. Maybe your friend can play arena until his collection allows him to build better ladder decks?

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  • Asprobourboulis's Avatar 280 70 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago

    Please understand and don't make this about my friend. It's not about him or how well he will do against other players in general or what are his outs from the situation he put himself in. He didn't start this topic asking for help or to blow off some steam. I stared this discussion about something you might be interested to talk or might want to know about. My friend's experience on ladder is used just to make myself understood and to offer some insight of the whole condition.

    That being said, it's about unfair matchmaking by an automated system, which allowed a "newbie" and a "pro" contest each other not once but consistently, just because it's convenient for the pro to abuse said system for profit. Do you find getting steamrolled and bullied appealing? Maybe it doesn't affect you and you couldn't care less. Share your thoughts on the whole new player experience from your point of view, rather than tips on what decks to play or which format and what strategy would be beneficial to them.

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  • AliRadicali's Avatar 460 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From Asprobourboulis

    Please understand and don't make this about my friend. It's not about him or how well he will do against other players in general or what are his outs from the situation he put himself in. He didn't start this topic asking for help or to blow off some steam. I stared this discussion about something you might be interested to talk or might want to know about. My friend's experience on ladder is used just to make myself understood and to offer some insight of the whole condition.

    That being said, it's about unfair matchmaking by an automated system, which allowed a "newbie" and a "pro" contest each other not once but consistently, just because it's convenient for the pro to abuse said system for profit. Do you find getting steamrolled and bullied that way fair? Maybe it doesn't affect you and you couldn't care less. Let us hear your thoughts on the whole new player experience from your point of view, rather than tips on what decks to play or which format and what strategy would be beneficial to them.

    Don't be preposterous. Your friend's circumstances are absolutely pertinent to his "problem". In a card game you're obviously going to be at a disadvantage to people who have complete collections if you have barely any cards. That's the nature of the beast. People giving you tips and workarounds aren't doing so out of malice or apathy, they're doing so because they understand that the fundamental nature of card games isn't going to change just because your friend had a bad experience. 

    In a ranked system, you will win or lose until you reach a rank where the wins and losses even each other out. Again, that's not an evil algorithm, that's just the nature of a ladder system.

     

    You haven't convinced me that there is a problem here, other than your unwillingness to consider changing your friend's approach to the game rather than demanding the game itself change.

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  • Asprobourboulis's Avatar 280 70 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali
    You haven't convinced me that there is a problem here (...)
     

    The problem: Let's assume that I am at rank 4 now. It's a matter of months before I reach Rank 20 through careful planning of my win/loss ratio, dropping 4 ranks at a time. Then I lose some more by conceding, to adjust my MMR accordingly, only to be matched against the poor souls who happened to be naive and ascend to the Rank 20 floor. My strat now is to win one match and concede the next or two and guess what; my MMR is low enough to be matched against those "[Hearthstone Card (Mark of Hakkar) Not Found]" players that are kind enough to greet me when they see me and are a delight to play against! On top of that, I farm gold faster than having to win an Archivist Elysiana mirror match! Only when I see another player like me (trust me when I say that they are easy to spot) I concede, but only if I was fast enough to press the concede button before they did. You would be surprised to learn that it actually hurts me more to win against those better win-rate guys, so I have learned how to concede in a blink of the eye (at the moment just before I hear the name of my hero, if taking reaction time into consideration)! What I've learned through this process: I'm actually better at assessing the correct match for me than the Hearthstone matchmaking algorithm!

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  • zoobernut's Avatar Swamp 250 137 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From Asprobourboulis
    Quote From AliRadicali
    You haven't convinced me that there is a problem here (...)
     

    The problem: Let's assume that I am at rank 4 now. It's a matter of months before I reach Rank 20 through careful planning of my win/loss ratio, dropping 4 ranks at a time. Then I lose some more by conceding, to adjust my MMR accordingly, only to be matched against the poor souls who happened to be naive and ascend to the Rank 20 floor. My strat now is to win one match and concede the next or two and guess what; my MMR is low enough to be matched against those "Mark of Hakkar" players that are kind enough to greet me when they see me and are a delight to play against! On top of that, I farm gold faster than having to win an Archivist Elysiana mirror match! Only when I see another player like me (trust me when I say that they are easy to spot) I concede, but only if I was slow enough to press the concede button before they did. You would be surprised to learn that it actually hurts me more to win against those better win-rate guys, so I have learned how to concede in a blink of the eye (at the moment just before I hear the name of my hero, if taking reaction time into consideration)! What I've learned through this process: I'm actually better at assessing the correct match for me than the Hearthstone matchmaking algorithm!

    The problem I have is

    A) You don't know the circumstances for each individual. What if someone really loves this game and bought a bunch of cards so they could craft a tier 1 or 2 deck but they are still just starting out so they aren't that good with it yet and their low rank is deserved?

    2) Your original postulation that this was an issue was based on the appearance of gold heroes which was pointed out several times is not connected to ability but time as well as the fact that we have two different cards in the game now that when used give you a golden hero and a golden deck.

    Z) I just don't see actual data to back up your original assessment that this is a huge problem for the game. I am sure it happens to a small degree but it is definitely not something that I think people run into on a really regular basis. This is like when people whine about a particular card or deck because they ran into it a bunch but the actual data in the background doesn't back up their assertion that it is everywhere and overrunning the game. 

    Chaos, Panic, and Disorder, My work here is done. 

    Welcome to the thunder-dome bitch!

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  • AliRadicali's Avatar 460 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From Asprobourboulis
    Quote From AliRadicali
    You haven't convinced me that there is a problem here (...)
     

    The problem: Let's assume that I am at rank 4 now. It's a matter of months before I reach Rank 20 through careful planning of my win/loss ratio, dropping 4 ranks at a time. Then I lose some more by conceding, to adjust my MMR accordingly, only to be matched against the poor souls who happened to be naive and ascend to the Rank 20 floor. My strat now is to win one match and concede the next or two and guess what; my MMR is low enough to be matched against those "Mark of Hakkar" players that are kind enough to greet me when they see me and are a delight to play against! On top of that, I farm gold faster than having to win an Archivist Elysiana mirror match! Only when I see another player like me (trust me when I say that they are easy to spot) I concede, but only if I was slow enough to press the concede button before they did. You would be surprised to learn that it actually hurts me more to win against those better win-rate guys, so I have learned how to concede in a blink of the eye (at the moment just before I hear the name of my hero, if taking reaction time into consideration)! What I've learned through this process: I'm actually better at assessing the correct match for me than the Hearthstone matchmaking algorithm!

    Do people actually do this though? Why would you spend 4 months deliberately not gaining ranks only so you can continue to throw games to stay at rank 20? This scheme seems so laughably inefficient on its face that it hadn't even occurred to me that someone would try it. If we apply occam's razor to the phenomenon of players with golden portraits/expensive decks at low ranks, the far simpler explanation is that they're bad players who play a lot. This, incidentally, also goes a long way toward explaining their terrible attitudes.

     

    The other issue I have is that I'm not seeing any suggestions being made that don't already exist to a degree. Farming low levels is discouraged because you have to lose and you miss out on higher tier ranked rewards. Blizzard already implemented a beginner's ranked system specifically to give new players a kiddie pool to paddle around in without having to face veteran players with full collections. Obviously any new player who passes the threshold onto the real ladder is going to experience a bit of a rough patch. I think that's unavoidable.

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  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1745 2912 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali
    Quote From Asprobourboulis
    Quote From AliRadicali
    You haven't convinced me that there is a problem here (...)
     

    The problem: Let's assume that I am at rank 4 now. It's a matter of months before I reach Rank 20 through careful planning of my win/loss ratio, dropping 4 ranks at a time. Then I lose some more by conceding, to adjust my MMR accordingly, only to be matched against the poor souls who happened to be naive and ascend to the Rank 20 floor. My strat now is to win one match and concede the next or two and guess what; my MMR is low enough to be matched against those "Mark of Hakkar" players that are kind enough to greet me when they see me and are a delight to play against! On top of that, I farm gold faster than having to win an Archivist Elysiana mirror match! Only when I see another player like me (trust me when I say that they are easy to spot) I concede, but only if I was slow enough to press the concede button before they did. You would be surprised to learn that it actually hurts me more to win against those better win-rate guys, so I have learned how to concede in a blink of the eye (at the moment just before I hear the name of my hero, if taking reaction time into consideration)! What I've learned through this process: I'm actually better at assessing the correct match for me than the Hearthstone matchmaking algorithm!

    Do people actually do this though? Why would you spend 4 months deliberately not gaining ranks only so you can continue to throw games to stay at rank 20? This scheme seems so laughably inefficient on its face that it hadn't even occurred to me that someone would try it. If we apply occam's razor to the phenomenon of players with golden portraits/expensive decks at low ranks, the far simpler explanation is that they're bad players who play a lot. This, incidentally, also goes a long way toward explaining their terrible attitudes.

    I agree with what both of you have been saying. 

    Because hearthstone is a collectable card game new players are just in general going to lose to players with a decent collection. But just because it is fair as it works now doesn't mean that the new player experience couldn't be better.

    I think a good solution is to change the way ranks 50-26 work so that you are able to lose stars, but as to not discourage players you would do what they do with the silver ranks in Magic: Arena and make one win=2 stars and a lose=1 star so that you can have a perfect 50% winrate and still climb, and even if your winrate is slightly negetive you can still climb. but this would also give you more time to adapt to the game and get a stronger collection.

    The main issue is that no matter what you do there will always be people farming gold from newbs at the lowest rank they can get to. so even if you made it so that players couldn't get back to rank 16 after getting to 15 then you have the exact same problem happening from 15-10. so the best thing you can do is better prepare the new player(s) for the tough climb. 

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

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  • Bersak's Avatar Magma Rager 720 426 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago

    I‘ll add my two cents.

    Ranks in hearthstone are tricky by nature because they are not deck specific. You can be below average f2p and still grind that one Tier 1 deck you spent all your dust savings on.

    This has two downsides. First, you are fucked when you deck gets nerfed. Second, everybody gets quickly at least one good deck together and that’s enough to win against every meme or basic deck. There is not much room between a fresh new player and a noob that is 3 months in but managed to craft a powerfull deck.

    Conclusion: if you want to play ranked, you need a powerfull deck. Don’t go to war with a stick. Lack of diversity goes hand in hand with F2p.

    Winner winner chicken dinner

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  • MasseBre007's Avatar Plains 210 79 Posts Joined 03/31/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago

    From my experience the golden portrait players at rank 15 aren't farming, they're just bad. They play meme decks and so they don't progress. they aren't farming your friend, they are just as stuck as he is. Just for different reasons.

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  • LyraSilvertongue's Avatar 360 383 Posts Joined 06/01/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From SamHobbs494
     
    Quote From LyraSilvertongue

    The issue with not having these players be able to drop below rank 15 is what do relatively newer players do when they do get to rank 15 or better and still don't have an amazing collection? Do you make it so that players don't drop below 10?

    Side note to this part, yes that is exactly how it should work, why should it not? I don't want to play people all month who are just trolling the low ranks before they do their actual climb.

    I thought that was the whole point in the rank floors thing coming in in the first place, is it only rank 20 that got this? I thought every 5 levels was a floor. so this exact thing could not happen. Grinding my way up the ladder to what I thought was the next floor and then dropping all the way back down the next month was not a pleasant experience.

     

     

    My point was that if you keep increasing the rank experienced players are reset at then eventually you're going to have new players between ranks 25-10 or even 5 & then everyone else who is at ranks 5 to legend, all to accommodate the new player experience.

    It's unwise to fully cater to new players and hardcore players. The best model is middle ground or bust.

    1
  • FieselFitz's Avatar Prince Charming 1100 1355 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago

    Well i personaly know some people who have golden portraits simply because they play the game very often but still not that good at the game and therefor between rank 20-15 !

    I think the ranking system is fine (sure some improvements would not be bad) but it is still managable - and for example if you're a good player with a decent cardpool you can always rank up. Kripp for example does not play standard very often so if he starts a standard legend run he often times begins at rank 20 and still makes it.

    But as i said - there still could be some improvements but overall it`s fine.

    Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!

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  • drfelip's Avatar Dragon Scholar 365 289 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds

    I think a good solution is to change the way ranks 50-26 work so that you are able to lose stars, but as to not discourage players you would do what they do with the silver ranks in Magic: Arena and make one win=2 stars and a lose=1 star so that you can have a perfect 50% winrate and still climb, and even if your winrate is slightly negetive you can still climb. but this would also give you more time to adapt to the game and get a stronger collection.

    That sounds like a good change. How do you send it to Blizzard?

    The pleasure is mine.

    My last standard decks: nothing special right now.

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