What do you think Casual is Supposed to be?

  • PopeNeia's Avatar 205 170 Posts Joined 07/06/2019
    Posted 1 month ago

    Casual is just a cesspool of Quest Druids that I have to exterminate. 

    Apart from that, I like to test out my decks in casual, so yeah.

    This ain't no place for a hero

    -3
  • YJHS2000's Avatar Uther 255 113 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 month ago

    I don't understand why people are too cowardly to "test" netdecks on ladder. You have nothing to lose at tiers 5, 10 and 15. Get to one of those tiers and play whatever you want. Leave casual to people who are playing casually.

    Communism is just a red herring

    -4
  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 285 125 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 month ago

    What it is meant to be is exactly what it is: a constructed game mode with its MMR hidden to remove the sense of pressure you might feel to win in ranked.

    What I would like it to be is essentially what rank 15 is: a place with no cost to losing and where a large fraction of players are reasonably competent but not interested in ranking up, leading to a diverse array of decks both inside and outside the meta. You could say the same for rank 10 too, but as soon as you 'accidentally' get into rank 9 you can forget about encountering anything interesting, while ranks 14 and 13 are still fairly well populated with home brew decks.

    What I would really like it to be is a place where everyone goes to successfully escape meta decks and, understanding that is why everyone else is there, they spread the joy by bringing their own non-meta deck. Such a game mode is a beautiful dream, but not one I am naive or optimistic enough to seriously hope for.

    6
  • DestroyerR's Avatar 150 120 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 month ago
    Quote From ArngrimUndying

    My suggestion (that I know will never happen but I can dream) to "solve" the disparity in Casual:

    3 Modes - Ranked, Casual, and idk EXTRA Casual

    • Ranked is the normal ladder as it exists now, EXCEPT you get 10g for 2 wins (so 2 "megacrowns" = 10g)
    • Casual is exactly like it is now with the same 3 "normal" crowns = 10g 
    • EXTRA Casual gives no gold rewards at all

    That way people who are in it for the gold will stay on the ladder since the rewards would be better. People who want to play T2/T3 decks, practice, tweak "real" decks have Casual as a testing ground to do so while also getting "something" for winning. And people who want to try their ridiculous "Hey can I summon 7 Highkeeper Ras at once?!" decks without getting bodied in 6 turns have a place to do that as well since nobody would play EXTRA Casual with anything other than a fun, goofy deck.

    Since the above will never happen: I've said this in other threads, but for me this is a game, meant to be fun. Yes it's competitive, but I really don't get the mentality where people don't seem to comprehend there is someone else on the other side of that screen who is maybe not playing this to be the very best (like no one ever was! Da dahn da dah!) but is instead playing to have fun. So when you're "testing" or "practicing" decks that are proven Tier 1s in Casual and you run into someone playing Silence Priest or Beast Druid, maybe you should be the nicer/bigger person, concede to them, and move on. You aren't gaining any experience or whatever since this is a deck you'll never see on the ladder, and then you can go find another opponent that will actually provide you the option to improve if that's what you're really after. 

    That applies to the memer too, though. In fact, it stands to reason that the person who has a problem with playing that specific match (AKA the memer) would concede and move on. 

    Obviously the best solution would be the “extra casual” solution, but as you said, that’s not going to happen.

    When you stop to think about it, Reno Jackson’s effect doesn’t make a lot of sense thematically. Why would “getting rich” heal your hero to full? It’s almost like that effect is saying that Reno is connected to other cards with that effect... like, oh I don’t know, NOZARI THE BRONZE DRAGON? Reno = Bronze Dragon 100% confirmed

    1
  • craigrs84's Avatar 65 14 Posts Joined 07/14/2019
    Posted 1 month ago

    You cant change it so why whine/debate about it?  No one is going to read this thread and feel guilty about playing a tier 1 deck in casual, and you're only reaching a minority of hearthstone players on these forums anyways.  So this conversation will have about zero impact.

    People will do what they want to do ;)

    Sort of the same thing as complaining about netdecking in general.

    0
  • KANSAS's Avatar Wall 680 1061 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 1 month ago
    Quote From craigrs84

    You cant change it so why whine/debate about it?  No one is going to read this thread and feel guilty about playing a tier 1 deck in casual, and you're only reaching a minority of hearthstone players on these forums anyways.  So this conversation will have about zero impact.

    People will do what they want to do ;)

    Sort of the same thing as complaining about netdecking in general.

    Not all discussions have to be for the sake of change. Sometimes it is nice to have discussion for the sake of discussion :)

    1
  • AliRadicali's Avatar 400 630 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 1 month ago
    Quote From craigrs84

    You cant change it so why whine/debate about it?  No one is going to read this thread and feel guilty about playing a tier 1 deck in casual, and you're only reaching a minority of hearthstone players on these forums anyways.  So this conversation will have about zero impact.

    People will do what they want to do ;)

    Sort of the same thing as complaining about netdecking in general.

    This is a monumentally dumb argument to make when pressure from the community has resulted in balance and gameplay changes in the past, the most unanimous being the premature rotation of Genn and Baku. While you can't pinpoint that decision to any one complaint or discussion thread, it's asinine to pretend that the cumulative effect of tweets, discussion threads, youtube commentary videos and other forms of feedback didn't influence the decision.

     

    This type of argument from apathy is hardly ever a good argument to make, because it concedes the main point that there is a problem, only to argue that the problem can't be solved and therefore should be ignored. But it's an especially bad argument to make when several counterexamples exist to prove that it's possible to address the problem. Just the other day one of the devs commented on a possible future Mogu Fleshshaper nerf: https://outof.cards/hearthstone/459-mogu-fleshshaper-may-be-too-powerful. Guess what? We had a thread over here discussing Mogu where people were making this same defeatist non-argument.

     

    If you genuinely think words on the internet cannot influence others, why are you putting words on the internet urging others to change their behaviour? Do you not see the contradiction there?

    1
  • Gwyneth's Avatar 60 9 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 3 weeks, 2 days ago

    How would we ensure the reverse for the competitive players? Keeping meme decks off the ladder. 

    "Oh well that's different because my meme deck doesn't have a high win-rate and it's more satisfying when I win versus your competitive deck." 

    But that could have been another competitive player that I beat instead of being the unfortunate soul that was the 10% chance of you pulling off your memory. 

    "Why can't they test decks on ladder?" 

    Why can't you keep your meme decks off ladder? It took me a long time to force myself to power through what I call "meme 15" because of all the memes and jank. 

    I play ladder to win and encounter ridiculous decks there and it's just uuuggghhh. 

    I might as well be playing casual so I switch to casual because I'm going to run into memes/jank anyway so what difference does it make? 

    I've found a sweet spot between 10-5 and I've made it to Wild R8 (I only play Wild) so far. I think it's only fair: if you want competitive decks out of casual, then keep your memes/jank out off the ladder. 

    What are you doing there? You HAD to have been playing at least semi-competitively to get there in the FIRST place, right? 

    As for TRUE casuals that strictly play casual, more power to you! I do have ONE deck I play in casual occasionally to blow off steam but it's not completely done. (Missing Velen)

    Other than that, I'm on ladder 99% of the time I play. I understand your frustration and I think it's only fair you understand mine as well. Nothing feels worse than being proud of my plays just to lose because you happened to assemble all the pieces for your shenanigans. 

    Good Luck and Happy Gaming! <3

    2
  • ArngrimUndying's Avatar Jaina 355 340 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 3 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From Gwyneth

    How would we ensure the reverse for the competitive players? Keeping meme decks off the ladder. 

    "Oh well that's different because my meme deck doesn't have a high win-rate and it's more satisfying when I win versus your competitive deck." 

    But that could have been another competitive player that I beat instead of being the unfortunate soul that was the 10% chance of you pulling off your memory. 

    "Why can't they test decks on ladder?" 

    Why can't you keep your meme decks off ladder? It took me a long time to force myself to power through what I call "meme 15" because of all the memes and jank. 

    I play ladder to win and encounter ridiculous decks there and it's just uuuggghhh. 

    I might as well be playing casual so I switch to casual because I'm going to run into memes/jank anyway so what difference does it make? 

    I've found a sweet spot between 10-5 and I've made it to Wild R8 (I only play Wild) so far. I think it's only fair: if you want competitive decks out of casual, then keep your memes/jank out off the ladder. 

    What are you doing there? You HAD to have been playing at least semi-competitively to get there in the FIRST place, right? 

    As for TRUE casuals that strictly play casual, more power to you! I do have ONE deck I play in casual occasionally to blow off steam but it's not completely done. (Missing Velen)

    Other than that, I'm on ladder 99% of the time I play. I understand your frustration and I think it's only fair you understand mine as well. Nothing feels worse than being proud of my plays just to lose because you happened to assemble all the pieces for your shenanigans. 

    Not being snarky; legit curious since I know everyone's local meta is different: what % (ballpark) do you really see meme decks on the ladder? Because while this is a totally fair point I agree with (that memes should stay in Casual AND meta stay on the ladder), if 40% of Casual is metadecks vs 5% of the ladder is memes (which is roughly my experience), then those problems are not really analogous, right? You go to the hospital to get your broken finger reset AND that bullet hole in your lung stitched up, but one of those is just a little more "problematic" than the other...

    I also think you stating that you only play Wild is a factor there - I also play a lot of Wild and frankly there are just so many more "meme" decks that are ALSO really meta-competitive/good (any of the Mage OTKs, Mechathun Warlock, etc) so the line blurs there a lot more than Standard.

    0
  • Gwyneth's Avatar 60 9 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 3 weeks, 2 days ago

    I see alot of them in R20, R15, and the occasional few on R10. They decrease as I climb but that isn't my point. My point is there  shouldn't be a double standard. 

    And like you said, how could anyone ensure such a thing especially in Wild? The line between meme/competitive is blurred and on top of that, you have meme decks that could possibly get you from 20-15. 

    So, is it fair that competitive meme decks should be locked out of ladder completely? 

    But on the flip side, if a new rogue deck becomes t1/t2, and I happen to open the cards for it, should I be locked out of casual and forced to tank my rank to practice with a deck in my least played class? 

    On top of that, wouldn't there be a top tier meme deck in an extra casual mode thus creating the same problem? Even players that love memes would get sick of being milled to death by rogue? Or having endless matches between mill rogue and Dead Man's Hand Warrior, right? 

    Variety is the spice of life and if  you're in it for memes/jank, wouldn't be exhausting facing mill rogue after mill rogue after mill rogue? Wouldn't you want a variety of match-ups to test your deck? See what works, what doesn't? Where it's weak points are? Do you need an aggro finisher? Do you need more removal? How well does it do versus control? 

    On top of all that, the wild player base is even smaller and you want to break it up even more?

    Good Luck and Happy Gaming! <3

    0
  • AliRadicali's Avatar 400 630 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 3 weeks, 2 days ago
    Quote From Gwyneth

    How would we ensure the reverse for the competitive players? Keeping meme decks off the ladder. 

    "Oh well that's different because my meme deck doesn't have a high win-rate and it's more satisfying when I win versus your competitive deck." 

    But that could have been another competitive player that I beat instead of being the unfortunate soul that was the 10% chance of you pulling off your memory. 

    "Why can't they test decks on ladder?" 

    Why can't you keep your meme decks off ladder? It took me a long time to force myself to power through what I call "meme 15" because of all the memes and jank. 

    I play ladder to win and encounter ridiculous decks there and it's just uuuggghhh. 

    I might as well be playing casual so I switch to casual because I'm going to run into memes/jank anyway so what difference does it make? 

    I've found a sweet spot between 10-5 and I've made it to Wild R8 (I only play Wild) so far. I think it's only fair: if you want competitive decks out of casual, then keep your memes/jank out off the ladder. 

    What are you doing there? You HAD to have been playing at least semi-competitively to get there in the FIRST place, right? 

    As for TRUE casuals that strictly play casual, more power to you! I do have ONE deck I play in casual occasionally to blow off steam but it's not completely done. (Missing Velen)

    Other than that, I'm on ladder 99% of the time I play. I understand your frustration and I think it's only fair you understand mine as well. Nothing feels worse than being proud of my plays just to lose because you happened to assemble all the pieces for your shenanigans. 

    I honestly don't really see how this is a problem though. If you're playing to win then you should be ecstatic to encounter low WR decks on your climb, right? Not to mention, the problem, if you want to call it that, is self-correcting: by beating the memesters at R20, 15, 10, 5 you go up in rank to where the meme decks can no longer survive due to their low WR.

     

    I think these floored ranks present a healthy compromise, allowing players a place to experiment a little while still facing (hopefully) mostly competitive decks. If I build a new laddering deck there's not much point in testing it against meme decks, you want an environment where people are playing 'real' decks, but without the risk of losing rank. The alternative would be that all such experimentation or practice takes place in casual, which is how you end up with threads like this one.

    0
  • Gwyneth's Avatar 60 9 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 3 weeks, 1 day ago

    No, it doesn't make me ecstatic. After about the 3rd or 4th Mill rogue, it gets annoying. It really does. 

    Why should memes/jank be welcome everywhere while asking for their own space? Why can't ladder strictly be ladder and casual be strictly casual? 

    It'd certainly save me a lot of frustration and give me a chance at more variety: I basically have to aggro my way through to reach above r15 and sometimes make it to 10  before it gets a bit rough or I can play the non-aggro decks I actually want to play that are in top tiers.

    Good Luck and Happy Gaming! <3

    -1
  • AliRadicali's Avatar 400 630 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 3 weeks, 1 day ago
    Quote From Gwyneth

    Why should memes/jank be welcome everywhere while asking for their own space?

    But they're not. Meme decks get filtered out by the ranking system at any rank that doesn't have a floor. You're not going to find a lot of meme decks at Rank 2 or high legend.

     

    Quote From Gwyneth

    Why can't ladder strictly be ladder and casual be strictly casual? 

    Because there is no hard dividing line between casual and competitive, there isn't even a definition that everyone agrees with. Even if we get past definitional issues, there's a boatload of practical concerns: Suppose you could identify casual and competitive decks, how do you make players play them in the appropriate forum?

     

    Quote From Gwyneth 

    It'd certainly save me a lot of frustration and give me a chance at more variety: I basically have to aggro my way through to reach above r15 and sometimes make it to 10  before it gets a bit rough or I can play the non-aggro decks I actually want to play that are in top tiers.

    What is stopping you from playing the decks you want to play at lower tiers? Also how does playing less decks result in greater variety?

    1
  • Gwyneth's Avatar 60 9 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 3 weeks ago

    All of this was hypothetical. If casual wants to ban competitive decks then ladder should be able to ban non-competitive decks. 

    My point was that is all just silly. As you can clearly see, there isn't any clear definition on what is or what isn't casual/competitive. 

    As for what is stopping me from playing certain decks at lower ranks? Mill rogue. Both Evenlock and my Dragon Mind Blast Priest decks have so much draw on their own that I usually just aggro my way up the ladder and once I reach a good rank (for me), I start messing around. 

    I don't play casual and I use Zayle when someone offers me a Challenge a Friend quest. It's a bit unrealistic to win 30 matches a day in casual mode. The gold rewards aren't worth it - I know; I've tried. 

    I burnt myself out real fast. I like to win and I like the challenge of playing ladder. Sure, it sucks to lose stars sometimes but not every Spike out there is gold farming in casual. 

    Good Luck and Happy Gaming! <3

    0
  • AliRadicali's Avatar 400 630 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 3 weeks ago
    Quote From Gwyneth

    All of this was hypothetical. If casual wants to ban competitive decks then ladder should be able to ban non-competitive decks. 

    Casual doesn't have a filter. Ranked play does. The two are not equivalent so treating them equally will not produce equal or fair outcomes. That's why I said earlier that I considered floored levels at certain ranks a fair compromise. It moves a lot of not-really-casual gameplay over to certain ranks of ladder, whereas before it had all been shoved into casual where it didn't belong.

    Quote From Gwyneth

    As for what is stopping me from playing certain decks at lower ranks? Mill rogue. Both Evenlock and my Dragon Mind Blast Priest decks have so much draw on their own that I usually just aggro my way up the ladder and once I reach a good rank (for me), I start messing around. 

    I don't play casual and I use Zayle when someone offers me a Challenge a Friend quest. It's a bit unrealistic to win 30 matches a day in casual mode. The gold rewards aren't worth it - I know; I've tried. 

    I burnt myself out real fast. I like to win and I like the challenge of playing ladder. Sure, it sucks to lose stars sometimes but not every Spike out there is gold farming in casual. 

    I don't really know what to say to this. Yes sometimes your favourite deck is poorly situated in a given (sub)meta. I don't see how that should inform policy decisions on game modes. If you think Mill Rogue itself is particularly toxic, petition to have that deck nerfed instead of holding Casual hostage over it. If mill rogue is endemic to all of the lower ranks and not just the floored ones, clearly some people are having success with it...

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  • Gwyneth's Avatar 60 9 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 6 days ago

    I don't play casual because of threads like this. Any of my decks, regardless of why I play them, could be seen as "meta" because they win matches. 

    There isn't a cut and dry of what is allowed in casual, and what isn't so I don't even bother playing there.

    Unfortunately, this means I miss out on playing some of my more fun decks because I don't want to be accused of "abusing casual."

    I just stay away from it altogether and focus on winning because I can't have it any other way because threads like these keep popping up and it makes me wary. I just want to play Hearthstone. 

    It's clear to me that no matter what I do, it's wrong if I deviate from the ladder so you won't catch me in casual. Not about to force my presence where I'm not welcome. 

    Good Luck and Happy Gaming! <3

    0
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