Wild needs CPR. Please discuss and spread the word

  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1715 2752 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 1 year, 7 months ago
    Quote From griffior


    3. I've already said it once but I'll say it again, they should not nerf cards in wild and should've un-nerfed (Yogg, Tuskar, Molten Giant to name a few) cards when they rotated 

    They did un-nerf Molten Giant when he rotated. I wish they had done that with other cards as well (such as yogg). This would make wild much more interesting and it would play a big role in attracting standard players to wild.

    "Are you sad that yogg got nerfed? well now you can play him in all his former glory in a new format that will require you to spend lots of time/dust/money to play." 

    It sounds like blizzard could be making money off of pushing wild more.

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

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  • griffior's Avatar 720 262 Posts Joined 05/31/2019
    Posted 1 year, 7 months ago
    Quote From KANSAS
    Quote From griffior


    3. I've already said it once but I'll say it again, they should not nerf cards in wild and should've un-nerfed (Yogg, Tuskar, Molten Giant to name a few) cards when they rotated 

    They did un-nerf Molten Giant when he rotated. I wish they had done that with other cards as well (such as yogg). This would make wild much more interesting and it would play a big role in attracting standard players to wild.

    "Are you sad that yogg got nerfed? well now you can play him in all his former glory in a new format that will require you to spend lots of time/dust/money to play." 

    It sounds like blizzard could be making money off of pushing wild more.

    Thanks for reminding me, I guess I forgot about its changes.

    I think they're holding off actually adding anything new to the game (Battlegrounds was not made for the health of Hearthstone (I could dive deeper on that but I'm not going to) it is a cash in on auto-battlers) until they (Team 5) start seeing scary financial impact.

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1481 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 year, 7 months ago

     

    @griffior

    There is a huge difference between current top tiers, and when we had Odd Paladin and Even Shaman at the top.

    In the same way there is a difference between POWERFUL vs BROKEN.

    And it's not just a matter of power, it's also a matter that current top decks are basically Tempo AND Combo (power from hand) at the same time!

    They can build insane boards in the same turn, and you can only hope to hold a counter at the right time, or you're screwed.

    So no, if they nerfed the current trio of top decks, the new ones would be obviously very powerful, but not equally broken (Renodecks would probably stabilize on top, with classic Combo rising as meta police, and Odd/Even Tempo to lock the balance).

    (And unnerfing some cards would do little to no good on its own, even tho i'd certainly appreciate Yogg unnerfed).

    I expect Wild to be very powerful, NOT broken.

     

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  • griffior's Avatar 720 262 Posts Joined 05/31/2019
    Posted 1 year, 7 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS

     

    @griffior

    There is a huge difference between current top tiers, and when we had Odd Paladin and Even Shaman at the top.

    In the same way there is a difference between POWERFUL vs BROKEN.

    And it's not just a matter of power, it's also a matter that current top decks are basically Tempo AND Combo (power from hand) at the same time!

    They can build insane boards in the same turn, and you can only hope to hold a counter at the right time, or you're screwed.

    So no, if they nerfed the current trio of top decks, the new ones would be obviously very powerful, but not equally broken (Renodecks would probably stabilize on top, with classic Combo rising as meta police, and Odd/Even Tempo to lock the balance).

    (And unnerfing some cards would do little to no good on its own, even tho i'd certainly appreciate Yogg unnerfed).

    I expect Wild to be very powerful, NOT broken.

     

    So I agree with everything you've said except for your last sentence.

    I think this comes from my perception of Wild should be is different from yours. You expect it to be very powerful, I expect it to be broken. With access to every card it is inevitable that Wild gets out of hand, and that's okay. What's not okay is that Team 5 selectively nerfs some cards/decks but not others. Aviana, Dreadsteed, and Naga Sea Witch are great examples of this since Team 5 was swift to "re-balance" these cards while Barnes was still a large community complaint. So my question is "Why do some cards see immediate action but others took years before Team 5 would step in?".

    I think the solution to this problem (I'm about to sound like a broken record) is to introduce a format in between Standard and Wild. Something that allows cards from every set to be played but bans cards that cause broken combos, SN1P-SN4P, un-nerfed Shadowboxer, and un-nerfed Naga Sea Witch.

    One obvious argument to that idea is the potential to splitting the player base, but having a split player base is better than having no player base.

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  • Painkiller1724's Avatar 200 132 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 year, 7 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS

     

    @griffior

    There is a huge difference between current top tiers, and when we had Odd Paladin and Even Shaman at the top.

    In the same way there is a difference between POWERFUL vs BROKEN.

    And it's not just a matter of power, it's also a matter that current top decks are basically Tempo AND Combo (power from hand) at the same time!

    They can build insane boards in the same turn, and you can only hope to hold a counter at the right time, or you're screwed.

    So no, if they nerfed the current trio of top decks, the new ones would be obviously very powerful, but not equally broken (Renodecks would probably stabilize on top, with classic Combo rising as meta police, and Odd/Even Tempo to lock the balance).

    (And unnerfing some cards would do little to no good on its own, even tho i'd certainly appreciate Yogg unnerfed).

    I expect Wild to be very powerful, NOT broken.

     

    Completely agreed on that

    There is a huge difference between powerful and broken. Usually the problems arrive when there is a broken COMBO deck that disrupts the rock/paper/scissors rule. Once in a while they appear to annoy us, poor wild players. Being beaten up by a combo deck at turn 5-7 in a regular basis is not cool.

    The most recent example is this snip snap warlock. Mechwarper is the main issue, but let's remember that the card that made this deck viable was Plague of Flames (1 mana, wipe the board... totally balanced). Btw, nowadays I've been only playing shaman decks, since devolve solves all my mech related problems (but I have a hard time against secret mages).

    I enjoy playing wild because of the multiple synergies between old and new cards, but facing broken decks over and over just cuts the fun out of the game. If I was willing to play a no brainier draw-and-win game, I would play Yu-Gi-Oh, not HS!!

    Another thing, that OP stated, but I don't agree, is that wild is low represented. I usually queue in a few seconds, even at higher ranks. Last year, when wild was all about Odd Pally and Big Priest, it was forever to enter a single match, no matter what rank you were.

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  • LyraSilvertongue's Avatar 355 383 Posts Joined 06/01/2019
    Posted 1 year, 7 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS
    Quote From LyraSilvertongue

    Thread pretty much seems like another copy pasta combo hate thread. Nerf things like Thaurassian due to wild players not liking to lose to combos will guarantee that many wild players may potentially quit the game, hurting the format even more. 

    I know I play wild primarily because you can make so many cool combos and I know many other players who primarily use the format for decks like that as well.

    And i know many including myself who don't give a damn about combos and yet would like to play decks that are not bashed by current broken top tiers.

    And keeping Wild as it is will possibly keep your group there, but it will make many others to leave the game, and the mode to die out (assuming it is not already dead).

    Now, i am not willing to kill Thaurissan or any other OTK for that matter, but Wild is not fine now, and demanding for a serious fix is not a hate thread just because you are not involved by current problems.

     

    Stating that there are also players on the other side of the argument doesn't invalidate that making a such big change to hate on combos wouldn't hurt a devoted part of the playerbase. I can also think of 2 (3 if you count Dane) streamers that constantly put the wild format out there more in the public eye due to streams/youtube and fun combos (many of which actually do need Thaurassian ticks). Who does more for the wild format? Those public players and streamers who promote the format (even with silly combos) or players on forums who do nothing positive to put the format into the public eye in a positive way?

    As for wanting to play decks that are not bashed by current top tiers, I have to ask why you think axing combos is going to change that whatsoever. Do you honestly think that more optimized control classes/cards or more optimized aggro/midrange classes or cards still wouldn't push less net-decked lists out of the wild meta game? You'd be dead wrong on that sir.

    For example, say wild combo decks prevent you from laddering with a lower tier control deck. Well, other decks/classes that can do control better will still ALWAYS sh*t on you, such as warlocks permanently having access to Gul'Dan (N'Zoth too if the meta got super slow/greedy), Godfrey & Defile, Mal'Ganis (making Gul'Dan even more polarizing during high rolls), Voidcaller, etc. The same logic can be applied to things like aggro (e.g. Murloc Shaman, variations of optimized aggro pally lists, Zoolock) still also pushing out lower tier aggro decks out of ladder. The point I'm getting at is that some classes are saturated in the tools of a particular playstyle while others are starved of them. You can try to significantly overhaul/nerf combos but it will never change the fact that optimized control/aggro/midrange decks are still going to prevent you and like-minded players from having as much success with control/aggro/midrange decks that aren't top netdecks of their respective playstyles. Using combos as a scapegoat won't suddenly make less popular decks work and not get curbstomped by control and aggro power creep.

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Refreshment Vendor 865 1481 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 year, 7 months ago
    Quote From LyraSilvertongue
    Quote From RavenSunHS
    Quote From LyraSilvertongue

    Thread pretty much seems like another copy pasta combo hate thread. Nerf things like Thaurassian due to wild players not liking to lose to combos will guarantee that many wild players may potentially quit the game, hurting the format even more. 

    I know I play wild primarily because you can make so many cool combos and I know many other players who primarily use the format for decks like that as well.

    And i know many including myself who don't give a damn about combos and yet would like to play decks that are not bashed by current broken top tiers.

    And keeping Wild as it is will possibly keep your group there, but it will make many others to leave the game, and the mode to die out (assuming it is not already dead).

    Now, i am not willing to kill Thaurissan or any other OTK for that matter, but Wild is not fine now, and demanding for a serious fix is not a hate thread just because you are not involved by current problems.

     

    Stating that there are also players on the other side of the argument doesn't invalidate that making a such big change to hate on combos wouldn't hurt a devoted part of the playerbase. I can also think of 2 (3 if you count Dane) streamers that constantly put the wild format out there more in the public eye due to streams/youtube and fun combos (many of which actually do need Thaurassian ticks). Who does more for the wild format? Those public players and streamers who promote the format (even with silly combos) or players on forums who do nothing positive to put the format into the public eye in a positive way?

    As for wanting to play decks that are not bashed by current top tiers, I have to ask why you think axing combos is going to change that whatsoever. Do you honestly think that more optimized control classes/cards or more optimized aggro/midrange classes or cards still wouldn't push less net-decked lists out of the wild meta game? You'd be dead wrong on that sir.

    For example, say wild combo decks prevent you from laddering with a lower tier control deck. Well, other decks/classes that can do control better will still ALWAYS sh*t on you, such as warlocks permanently having access to Gul'Dan (N'Zoth too if the meta got super slow/greedy), Godfrey & Defile, Mal'Ganis (making Gul'Dan even more polarizing during high rolls), Voidcaller, etc. The same logic can be applied to things like aggro (e.g. Murloc Shaman, variations of optimized aggro pally lists, Zoolock) still also pushing out lower tier aggro decks out of ladder. The point I'm getting at is that some classes are saturated in the tools of a particular playstyle while others are starved of them. You can try to significantly overhaul/nerf combos but it will never change the fact that optimized control/aggro/midrange decks are still going to prevent you and like-minded players from having as much success with control/aggro/midrange decks that aren't top netdecks of their respective playstyles. Using combos as a scapegoat won't suddenly make less popular decks work and not get curbstomped by control and aggro power creep.

    I should remind you that i updated my original suggestion, leaving out end-of-turn effects.

    With that being said, since when Wild is divided into two subcommunities, one of which is unimportant? Are you being an elitist jerk? I do hope i misunderstood you.

    Also, nerfing the current top tiers will in fact improve the viability of ALL decks (proportionately ofc, an off-meta deck will still struggle, but there's a difference between struggling and getting bashed), by virtue of the obvious fact that current top tier is meta-warping.

    We are in front of yet another AK47 Druid situation, but worse, and split in 3 different decks. That is, Tempo decks that can unleash Combo-level of power, or, otherwise seen, Combo decks with Tempo pace. They are degenerate because they break the meta paradigm (where Combo decks kick in with their power exclusively in the late turns, say no earlier than 9-10 mana).

    Finally, i don't really care of what solution is found (at this point i could even take the third mode suggestion, as Griffior said), as long as it is a serious and timely solution, but certainly we can't dismiss the matter with a superficial "hate thread".

     

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  • Gwyneth's Avatar 100 10 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 1 year, 6 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    Sniplock is probably the biggest problem, but Secret Mage (post SoU) and Mechadin (post Crystology-completely-unnecessary-buff) are also broken (not just OP, but broken).

    All these three decks are capable of repeated insane spikes of power. Unhealthy for fun purposes.

    > All of them revolve around discounting specific cards to (0).

    Wild needs a new hard-rule: no card can be discounted below (1) mana.

    Additionally: make Sap and Beneath the Grounds into reasonable Neutral legendary Battlecry cards ffs.

    That couple of things together would fix Wild for a very long while, avoiding spikes, and allowing any deck a tech card against major synergies. No nerf required.

    Right now Wild at rank 5 and higher is a complete trashbin. No variety is possible at all (unless you like to suffer), against those meta-warping topdecks.

    Isn't the problem really with passive reduction auras (Mechwarper, portal, Sorcerer's Apprentice, etc.) more than one-time cost reductions like Galvaniser, Emperor T and the like? I think that by instituting a hard rule against reducing cards to zero a lot of non-problematic OTK comboes would become collateral damage.

     

    It's not the most elegant solution, but I think adding the line "this cannot reduce a card's cost below (1)" as and when needed is the least invasive fix. For example, I'm not convinced that adding the line to Sorcerer's apprentice is the best solution as the card has been central to just about every mage deck in the game. I think it'd be better to target key cards in the secretmage deck with nerfs than to take out a card that's crucial to cyclonemage, freezemage, Exodia mage, etc.

     

    What if they added to Snip-snap card text: "cannot cost less than 1?" 

     

     

    Good Luck and Happy Gaming! <3

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  • AliRadicali's Avatar 460 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 1 year, 6 months ago
    Quote From Gwyneth
    What if they added to Snip-snap card text: "cannot cost less than 1?"  

    At that point I think I'd prefer they remove Sn1p-Sn4p altogether or give him a full remake. If time travel were possible I'd try to prevent them from releasing a card that has "abuse me" written all over it on a whim just for promotional purposes. It's not that that line of text wouldn't solve the immediate balance issues -it would- but it'd be terrible design. It'd be kind of like printing a terribly busted 0 cost card and then adding the line "if you play this on the same turn you win the game, you lose" just to prevent players from winning the game with it: just don't make the card so obviously busted and it doesn't need an ugly line of text to fix it.

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