Should milling be a genuine supported strategy in standard Hearthstone?

Descent of Dragons
  • Xynot's Avatar 135 25 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    In order for mill to be anything other than negative for the game, there would need to be far more graveyard/burned interaction to offer a counter beyond 'do something your deck is explicitly designed not to do". That some people enjoy the playstyle and that the playstyle requires a skilled operator does not mitigate the potential downside for the meta.

    All that you see is but a judgment against yourself.

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1165 1796 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    It does not matter how much patience or skill is required to play a mill deck. Patience and skill are not the criteria for whether something should be allowed in the game. The fact that it exists in other games is also not a criterion.

    Decks with milling as a win condition should be actively discouraged in Standard because Hearthstone lacks the mechanical infrastructure to allow a player to tech against it. Saying you should "learn to play around it" is a ridiculous oversimplification. For some archetypes, that is literally impossible.

    If they print an evergreen neutral card that lets me move my "graveyard" into my deck, I might reconsider my position.

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  • AliRadicali's Avatar 460 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From FortyDust

    It does not matter how much patience or skill is required to play a mill deck. Patience and skill are not the criteria for whether something should be allowed in the game. The fact that it exists in other games is also not a criterion.

    Decks with milling as a win condition should be actively discouraged in Standard because Hearthstone lacks the mechanical infrastructure to allow a player to tech against it. Saying you should "learn to play around it" is a ridiculous oversimplification. For some archetypes, that is literally impossible.

    If they print an evergreen neutral card that lets me move my "graveyard" into my deck, I might reconsider my position.

    Loads of decks can't beat OTK combos except by going face. Cards in hand are almost entirely untouchable in standard HS at the moment.

     

    Why the hell should combo and control players feel safe in the know that THEIR win condition can't be disrupted by other players when every other wincon can be? I'm not averse to the idea of more interaction, but dear god let's not pretend that all the strategies already in the game have adequate tech counters. It's been years since my old pal Dirty Rat was in standard...

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  • DoubleSummon's Avatar Ancestral Recall 1580 2271 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    I realized something lately.. you know it doesn't matter which style of deck you play.. you play to win.. if a mechanic is "unfair" your deck should be as much unfair as theirs you are doing other kind of unfair things.. let's take freeze mage vs aggro for example..

    freeze mage constantly freezes the board and have a burst OTK but aggro is also unfair cause they spam mana efficient minions which give you tonnes of tempo, which is also unfair.. when you play a specific playstyle you feel like some other playstyles are wrong.. and it's just not the right way to think about it..

    The question is how polarized are the matchups that's really the annoying part.. and how hopeless it feels sometimes but in general being able to actually play a game which also feels when you play a tier 3 deck vs the meta decks.. but well that's how card game work.. if your deck doesn't do something unfair what are you even doing.

     

    @aliradicali you mean [Hearthstone Card (coldlinght oracle) Not Found] not seer.

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  • ArngrimUndying's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 510 626 Posts Joined 06/11/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali

    It's been years since my old pal Dirty Rat was in standard...

    This is - by itself - an excellent point/question. So obviously for the first time in HS history Blizz did buffs a while back, and they've clearly been HoFing basic/classic cards without much pause. Why don't they "buff" some good Wild counters by making them Classic and bringing them back into Standard permanently? It would give them more room to print "weird" cards/cards for strategies like Mill since the counter would already be there.

    And to be crystal clear since I HATED that Halloween nonsense of bringing back all those OP cards and ruining the meta for a month: I mean very specifically cards like Dirty Rat, maybe Loatheb, etc. that are just good, all-purpose tech cards that have never really been adequately (and I use that word since I know there obviously have been some stabs at Dirty Rat 2: Dirtiest Boogaloo like Demonic Project & Hecklebot) reprinted.

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  • duppie's Avatar HearthStationeer 320 240 Posts Joined 04/02/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    I don't think it's something they should ever push with powerful cards but keeping it at memey/tier 4 level with the occasional card that can be used for it directly or indirectly is fine.  Unique archetypes are one of the things that make card games fun, even though i've never played mill myself I appreciate that some people like it.

     

    I've been playing a TON of magic:arena for like four months now and i've honestly never lost a single game to a mill deck.  Even when i'm playing generally slow decks they still get beat down, i even beat one with one of the basic decks you start with which are terrible.  I don't understand how it actually wins any games in standard.  Closest i've been is like 6 cards left in deck lol.

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  • Echo's Avatar Cupcake 830 297 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    It depends on what you mean by mill in my opinion, as it differs between the game. If we go by milling in terms of MtG, this being getting rid of cards from the top of the deck, then absolutely not. Mill in this sense is like a burn deck where your opponent's life total is irrelevant and instead their life total becomes their deck size. Given that decks for hearthstone are only 30 cards, they'd either have to make the cards unreasonably expensive a la void contract or make them do very little, such as gnomeferatu, both of which are not good cards. Having a viable mill card in hearthstone would probably be the most unfun thing ever produced because unlike in MtG, where it's a gag/niche archetype that sees fringe play, cards that get burned in hearthstone cease to exist. Comparing it to MtG, many of the top decks throughout the history of the deck would try to get as many cards in the graveyard as possible and as such, milling isn't a good thing in every matchup.

     

    If we go by milling in terms of hearthstone, that was just making the opponent overdraw, I think that would be fair since most ways to print cards in this vein are just cards that'd draw both cards, which is something many decks would want it would still most likely decimate control decks, but I think that creates more of a challenge in making a control deck that is able to pressure someone down instead of durdling until late game to slam a bunch of stats in play.

    Absolute gamer.

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  • OldenGolden's Avatar Snow-Covered 690 125 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    I somehow managed to play two straight mill decks the other day in Wild, and it was unpleasant to say the least. I just conceded against the rogue one, there's very little point to playing those out unless you start fast with an aggro deck and can hope to outrace it, but I was able to get past the Druid one.

    I understand them as a "strategy", I suppose, but I don't think supporting it any further is a good idea. Hearthstone does not allow any sort of interaction with or counter to the mill strategy, minus a couple of RNG shots with a Gnomeferatu or something. As someone else mentioned, graveyard interaction can help to balance it in Magic, in that a milled card is not necessarily gone forever, and of course there are many more cards to mill.

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1165 1796 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From Echo

    If we go by milling in terms of hearthstone, that was just making the opponent overdraw, I think that would be fair since most ways to print cards in this vein are just cards that'd draw both cards, which is something many decks would want it would still most likely decimate control decks, but I think that creates more of a challenge in making a control deck that is able to pressure someone down instead of durdling until late game to slam a bunch of stats in play.

    I think it's safe to say that when someone talks about "mill decks" or "mill as a strategy," they are talking about killing the opponent by running them out of cards -- milling as a win condition.

    Forcing the occasional overdraw has never been controversial as far as I know.

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  • KANSAS's Avatar Old God Fanatic 1745 2912 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From Echo

    If we go by milling in terms of hearthstone, that was just making the opponent overdraw, I think that would be fair since most ways to print cards in this vein are just cards that'd draw both cards, which is something many decks would want it would still most likely decimate control decks, but I think that creates more of a challenge in making a control deck that is able to pressure someone down instead of durdling until late game to slam a bunch of stats in play.

    By this do you mean a control deck that is a midrange deck? If your control decks strategy is to play a lot of high value minions on curve throughout the game then it is no longer a control deck. 

    Carrion, my wayward grub.

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  • JrsL76's Avatar 160 34 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    Hell no.  Mill needs to stay fringe, because I want to punch someone when all my cards get milled.  You see it coming but sometimes you still can’t do anything

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  • Echo's Avatar Cupcake 830 297 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From KANSAS
    Quote From Echo

    If we go by milling in terms of hearthstone, that was just making the opponent overdraw, I think that would be fair since most ways to print cards in this vein are just cards that'd draw both cards, which is something many decks would want it would still most likely decimate control decks, but I think that creates more of a challenge in making a control deck that is able to pressure someone down instead of durdling until late game to slam a bunch of stats in play.

    By this do you mean a control deck that is a midrange deck? If your control decks strategy is to play a lot of high value minions on curve throughout the game then it is no longer a control deck. 

    Looking back at what I typed, it wasn't very clear what I meant. What I should have said was to make control decks less in the vein control warrior has been the last year or two, where you get to the late game and just win via slowly outvaluing the opponent/having the opponent concede because the match is going essentially nowhere. That being said I do think there is a line between just a midrange deck and a control deck but that is beside the point.
    Quote From FortyDust
     

    I think it's safe to say that when someone talks about "mill decks" or "mill as a strategy," they are talking about killing the opponent by running them out of cards -- milling as a win condition.

    Forcing the occasional overdraw has never been controversial as far as I know.

    Thats fair, the only time I can remember people complaining about overdraw is either when they are playing a control deck or when kingsbane mill rogue was a thing in wild which basically was just Kingsbane Rogue to begin with.

    Absolute gamer.

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  • DestroyerR's Avatar Design Champion 625 529 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    From reading the comments against mill here, I feel like the real problem here is the lack of responses to it. If an archetype has almost no counterplays,it’ll be unfun, regardless of the skill involved. Which is a shame, since I myself like mill a lot. It’s a nice, original strategy that is underrepresented in HS IMO.

    I guess my opinion is that mill should definitely have more support, but should also have more direct counters to it (like a card that returns burned cards to your deck, as mentioned here)

    Make The Cow King an alternate Warrior skin plz 

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  • Togwaggle's Avatar 210 91 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    Wow some absolutely great answers there guys. I've been away so haven't had a chance to reply.

    I think doublesummon makes a great point about what's deemed as unfair and to be honest that's what brought me to this question.

    Aliradicali also posted something I was thinking about when posting this question. 

    Milling the opponent is a valid counter to some strategies and without it there is no threat to players who hold lots of cards. I've been playing an elemental mage recently with that project card and although it's not a mill deck that card sometimes wins the game for me because its countering my opponents strategy. 

    But why should only few classes be able to do this. Yes rogue is a problem with bounces and is probably what sways the developers to not have neutral multi card draw. But whether  you love or hate it. It is surely missing imo

    Btw just want to say how great this community is. Very diverse and sensible answers.

    Cheers guys for making my journeys more I interesting 

     

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  • Togwaggle's Avatar 210 91 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    I was referring to only milling your opponent and whilst unfun to play against I also think it's fair as it has its counters. I mean what's people's strategy to control and combo at the mo. The typical answer would be to rush them down. Can anyone suggest some more counters besides this and milling

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  • AngryShuckie's Avatar 1695 1677 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From Togwaggle

    I was referring to only milling your opponent and whilst unfun to play against I also think it's fair as it has its counters. I mean what's people's strategy to control and combo at the mo. The typical answer would be to rush them down. Can anyone suggest some more counters besides this and milling

    You'll often lose against combo decks but a full on value deck will beat control. Burgle rogue should rarely lose to a true control deck for example. In fact, with Togwaggle's Scheme and/or Academic Espionage it is a reasonable counter to mill decks too.

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  • Togwaggle's Avatar 210 91 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    Yes I thought this when they made all those give opponent blah blah cards and then octosari. It's like it's there but not fleshed out maybe

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  • clawz161's Avatar The Undying 825 827 Posts Joined 07/16/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    I agree that mill deserves to have a spot in standard like every other type of deck in HS, and to people saying that won't happen because combo is a thing and blizzard hates mill, blizzard hates combo decks too... Mill completely gets shit on by aggro so much where it's basically suicide to run it against and aggro heavy meta, which as far as the games i've been playing in HS for over a year now, we are always in one. Yes playing more than one card before high mana turns is a struggle for some greedier decks but it's not impossible to play around mill, people did it all the time before coldlight rotated and people do it all the time in wild with coldlight and naturalize now. The only problem i see with mill in standard is the too much of a good thing type situation, which always plagues wild. It's why high value expansions like DoD are pretty lackluster yet game changing in standard but break the game bit by bit in wild, and that it's adding tools for existing decks. Adding more mill cards would push mill over the top in wild, but wild has a lot of really good aggro cards that are cheap which might counter it really easily we don't really know, but the thing is it'll be hard to balance wild around.

     

    And to people complaining that it "Ruins the game because Muh deck" shut up. There's plenty of ways to go infinite in wild and plenty of ways to put more value into your deck in standard right now. A reason like that is just shitty. As for it countering combo decks, by getting rid of value cards in the matchup, i say good. It's a good thing to punish a greedy hand hoarding control player, just like it's a good thing to punish a greedy board focus aggro player. I say let it grow.

    Living like that.

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  • Zwane's Avatar Wizard 320 423 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    I think the occasional mill is a fun way to frustrate the opponent but a consistent OTK deck based on that would be a little annoying. But lots of decks are annoying, say aggro, face huntard or OTK paladin? Basically any deck that more or less can ignore you and kill you is annoying.

    But the way card games work is that sometimes you or your opponent can get lucky, draw that combo, highroll the nuts and suddenly its game over. When this happens now and then and is not predictable it is fine, but when it is consistent and you know it is coming (like with a OTK deck like paladin) then it can be very frustrating if you have no tech for it ready.

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  • BulboScumbeg's Avatar 225 14 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 years, 8 months ago

    I really hate the mill strategy but every time I see someone playing a combo deck I am very grateful that it exists

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