A custom Core Set Overhaul

  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    So ever since Blizzard revealed the Priest Core Overhaul I was hoping that this would indicate that they may do a similar thing for the other classes in the future. In light of this, i've decided to brainstorm a few suggestions for the other classes (with varying detail because I'm more familiar with some than others)

    Anyways, before we start I'd like to set up a few rules that I took into consideration before doing this. These rules are based on the standards that Blizzard has set for themselves when doing the Priest overhaul and the new Demon Hunter Basic set:

    1) I will rework existing cards in order to better fit with the basic theme of the class (see Holy Smite)

    2) I will buff existing cards in order to bring them in line with the current powerlevel without making them essential (see Thoughtsteal and Temple Enforcer)

    3) I will entirely HoF cards that have an interesting premise but don't fit with the class identity that Blizzard is trying to establish (see [Hearthstone Card (Mindblast) Not Found] and Shadowform)

    4) I will make use of keywords like Rush and Lifesteal since they have been added to the basic set via Demon Hunter

    5) I will NOT remove clearly terrible cards as long as they fit with the class identity (see Mindgames, which is a clearly terrible card that will never see play but still embodies the Priest fantasy of using your opponent's deck against them)

    With these in Mind I'm gonna go through the classes and make notes on each one. Some of them will only be suggestions for a direction while others will be more concrete.

    Druid

    Now Druid has been one of the first things I played in this game. Unfortunately their basic and classic set is kind of a mess at this point, a lot of which is due to rampant abuse of OTKs and other shenanigans. I genuinely don't feel qualified to do a full rework of this class because I'm still not sure which strategies the devs are actually comfortable with, but here are a few things:

    Ancient of Lore: Now I really like this dude and it's kind of a shame what happened to him. Back in the day when Force of Nature still gave you treants with charge he was part of a nasty Combo deck that terrorized the meta for a while until it got absolutely destroyed through a number of nerfs to several cards, this one included.

    Back in the day, this made sense. AoL was basically an auto include for ramp decks because back then, a /-mana 5/5 with Arcane Intellect was a very strong play...so strong in fact that to this day, people still compare new cards to this guy to demonstrate how good they are. Cards like:

    -[Hearthstone Card (Hexlord Malacrass) Not Found]

    -Countess Ashmore

    Now those really weren't all that good now where they? The reason for this is because at this point, stats have been powercreeped so hard that playing a vanilla minion for 7-mana that only draws cards is a HUGE tempo loss and therefore only justifiable in very few situations (Hell, even Valdris Felgorge is hard to get on the board and he draws twice the amount that AoL did)

    Basically AoL with 2 cards drawn would no longer be a problem so he should be reverted. Even then he probably wouldn't see that much play, but he would actually become an option for when Druid really needs card draw. It's just sad to see the card be completely underwhelming by any metric when it's technically one of the most iconic cards for the class.

    Gift of the Wild: I know this was just a throwaway replacement for Naturalize but this should really just be 7-mana. NOt because that would make it more playable, but because it would actually make it usable when randomly generated.

    Keeper of the Grove: another victim of the old Combo Druid. He used to be pretty essential as a 2/4, but nowadays even that wouldn't be all that impressive. Still I would just buff him to a 2/3 so he actually is a valid tech choice instead of being strictly worse than Owl. If Silence is going to be part of the Druid identity then at least their one Silence minion should be reasonably statted for its cost.

    Savagery: I like the card, and Blizzar clearly wants to keep supporting Attack Damage Druid in some form, so I wish it had something that actually made it worth playing. Part of me really wants to make it able to target face so Attack Damage Druid can actually become its own thing with an aggro gameplan, but in that case you'd have to increase it's cost to at least 3-mana so it doesn't get misappropriated by Malygos Druids.

    Moonfire: Speaking of Malygos Druid. Despite nerfing the Archetype in the past and abstaining from printing cheap damaging spells Bliizz still wants to keep this archetype around if Imprisoned Satyr is anything to go by. I'm personally not a huge fan of the archetype, but I respect that people enjoy it, so if anything, I would suggest rotating Moonfire entirely and replace it with something that fits Druid better (such as small removal in a similar fashion)

    Swipe: As with Moonfire I think this card is a constant looming threat. At the same time there's no real way to deal with it other than making it completely unusable which would make Druid even worse at retaking the board than it already is. Maybe a solution would be to turn it into something like "deal 4 damage to a minion and 2 to adjacent ones"

    Druid of the Claw: A relic of when Charge was still intended as removl. Not only is it essentially pointless these days, but also the charge aspect doesn't fit Druid whatsoever. Instead I propose to make the Cat a 6/4 with Rush, essentially modernizing it and adding some nice symmetry.

    Hunter

    Bestial Wrath: I do not understand what they ever intended to do with this card, but clearly it hasn't work. There has been virtually no support for it and even when dropped randomly it's rarely useful. However, I still feel it's not nearly useless enough to warrant removing and it still somewhat works with the identity of Hunter using minions as removal (which Rush emphasized even more). If anything I would just buff it to +3 attack. People still won't run it, but it's a lot better as a random drop and would at least make sense to combine with certain minions.

    Scavenging Hyena: I don't think this really needs fixing, but it's something to keep an eye on because it just so dam frustrating when it snowballs to victory. If need be it would be changed to a 2/3 that only gains attack instead of health (effectively the Hunter equivalent of Frothing Berserker)

    Explosive Shot: I'm not sure this really needs to be buffed because I fear it would become somewhat of a staple if you reduced its cost by 1, but I'm still mentioning it as something that isn't exactly up to the modern standards of cost efficiency

    [Hearthstone Card (Gladiator's Bow) Not Found]: I honestly just want this to see play and I think aat 6-mana it potentially would. It's such a cool concept and it's wasted by being just a tad too slow. Once again, this is mostly preference though and it's not nearly as necessary as other stuff

    Animal Companion: I have a long standing hatred for this card. It's the ultimate example of bad RNG in Hearthstone. In a tempo deck this is  basically a 1/3 to give you the perfect answer to your current situation, while the other two probably lose you the game. However, due to it giving you slightly overstatted minions it'S always going to be included in Hunter decks that need a turn 3 play and as such it hogs the 3-mana spot for itself (when that slot is already crowded as hell).

    My solution is simple: 4-mana: Choose an Animal Companion to summon. Will that see play? Probably not, but it actually gives it some actual value and lets you build around it. Need token buffs? Pick Leokk. Need removal/reach? Pick Huffer. Need a taunt or just a solid minion? pick Misha. This way it actually fits the style of a Basic card that's not exactly the optimal choice and outclassed by more specialized cards form expansions while still being worth running if your deck can use the flexibility. If necessary you can always buff the individual companions in stats to make up for the mana increase.

    And no, it's not bringing Discover to the BAsic set because it basically uses the same mechanic as Tracking.

    Starving Buzzard: Once an essential part of Hunter decks it got nerfed into complete submission, without ever addressing the real issue.

    The problem with Buzzard was its synergy with stuff like Unleash the Hounds, which relied on the fact that BUzzard would draw on SUMMON instead of just PLAY. With that change you could easily buff it to a 4-mana card. Draw is no longer a complete weakness in Hunter anyways, but it's a shame that this card isn't at least on the level of Arcane Fletcher. Alternatively you could just rotate the guy, but I don't see the reason for that.

    Tundra Rhino: Just yeet this thing already. I don't know why they insist on keeping this around when it's never going to do anything other than enable some abusive combo. Now that Leoroxx is a thing w'll probably see this show up a lot more and it's going to be frustrating every time. Degenerate combo enablers like this should just be Hall of Famed and be replaced with something more fitting for the class and the core set in general.

    Mage

    There's honestly not much to say about Mage, it has one of the most solid and coherent core sets out of all the classes. Only one card really sticks out and that's

    Icicle: this card was used to replace Ice Block and just like it's Druid equivalent it was kind of a rush job. It honestly should either deal 3-damage or cost 1-mana. It's just so awkward compared to Frostbolt and Mage really needs more help in the draw department anyways.

    Paladin

    Guardian of Kings: Much like Temple Enforcer this just doesn't line up statwise anymore. They could buff the heal up to 8 (which is the typical baseline anyways) or just reduce its cost down to 6. It's never going to see play in any case since Paladin gets consistently better healing options, but it's still awful when it shows up from something like Lightforged Crusader.

    Hammer of Wrath: this falls into the same category as [Hearthstone Card (Mindblast) Not Found]. Face damage isn't really Paladin's identity and the card is pretty awkward in any case. I'd rather they make it minion-only and reduce its cost to 3, so it can actually see play as an efficient cycling tool in Control decks while not being that useful for more aggressive strategies. This is especially needed seeing howAcolyte of Pain is no longer available.

    Avenging Wrath: is the same scenario, however here I actually intend to make a genuinely powerful card. Removing the ability to damage face obviously makes this a more powerful removal tool. The simplest approach is to make it a 5-mana deal 8 split among all enemy minions. This would probably make it an autoinclude in most Slower Paladin decks (and even some midrange ones). A different idea would be to go down to 4-mana but reduce the damage to 6-mana, which makes it similar to Consecration but better against a single big target.

    If both of these would end up too powerful, leaving it at 6-mana with only minion damage would still be an overall buff although the card would probably not see play.

    Holy Wrath: Just rotate it. It's never really been part of any legit strategy and only popped up to abuse an OTK scenario, which is not something we'll probably see again in Standard, so just put this into Wild and make room for a card that fits better with the Paladin identity.

    Rogue

    Betrayal: I'm not saying this card needs to be changed, but I don't understand what kind of Rogue strategy it's supposed to represent. it's never really gotten any legit support and only showed up as a recycled effect in stuff like [Hearthstone Card (Unknown Contract) Not Found] or Sudden Betrayal.

    Blade Flurry: Only 90s kids will remember that this used to be one of the most broken cards in the game and allowed Rogue to deal ridiculous burst damage. It's not wise to ever revert this to its former state but I believe that due to the nerf to Preparation it should be adjusted down to 3-mana. This way it also supports Weapon Rogue, a playstyle we haven't really seen in a while. I don#t want rogue to have a reliable boardclear, but there should be some sort of payoff for playing Bazaar Burglary or any type of deck that features multiple weapons with decent attack.

    Master of Disguise: Already got nerfed once and I really like the overall falvour of the card, but at the same time rogue really doesn't give stealth anymore..they just play Stealth minions. Maybe this would be better in a reworked form, although it's not really necessary.

    Kidnapper: Alright now this guy is something else. He's probably the ABSOLUTE WORST card ever created. It's actually baffling how garbage he is. Even when you consider it as Sap on a stick it's still just a 4-mana 5/3, which is far below vanilla...and on top of that he requires you to combo so you're effectively spending a huge amount of money on an effect you can get way more easily...from a basic card. Even further, his name makes NO SENSE! Since when does kidnapping mean returning a minion to its owner? He doesn't even give a cost increase or anything that could be interpreted as "ransom".

    I propose this rework: Instead of being a shitty Sapman make him a 5-mana card with "Battlecry: Return a friendly minion to your hand, it costs (3) less". The idea is to emphasize the self bouncing theme in Rogue and give a counterpart to Shadowstep to teach players the difference between using a spell or a minion to achieve a similar effect and how they have different applications. He still won't see play, but he now has a purpose of being able to set up certain combos with more cost reduction than Shadowstep (in exchange for being much more expensive).

    Edwin VanCleef: Now I'm a firm believer that edwin isn't actually in need of being HoF'd but just in case it ever happens I propose that we replace him with Vanessa VanCleef, just for the sake of the lore. No idea what her effect would be, but I want her in the game, damnit!

    Fan of Knives: Should deal 1-damage to the enemy face also. Okay, hear me out on this one: It's by no means a bad card even though it's much more niche after Prep lost it's staple status. However, I still think it's a very interesting card to be used with Spell damage and giving it the ability to also chip at your opponent's health would make it more attractive for aggressive decks and fit with Rogue's identity of leveraging tempo and aggressiveness in exchange for not having much defense. Also, since Leeroy rotated Rogue has lost a lot of burst potential so a bit more damage would be appreciated.

    Sprint: 6-mana to adjust it to the Prep nerf. I know that makes it a better Nourish, but Nourish pays for also being a ramp tool so that doesn't really compare. I just think that at least Rogue's core cards should be adjusted to the new Prep, especially since new Rogue cards are being designed with that nerf in mind.

    Assassin's Blade: Swap the stats to a 4/3 weapon. The reason is the following: Originally the wanted you to equip this and then buff it for damage over multiple turns. However, buffing large weapons isn't exactly a good strategy in this game because of weapon removal. Rather it makes sense to get more damage over fewer turns. This also combos better with Blade Flurry (buffed or not) because it allows you to equip and swing into swing and Flurry on the next turn, which is more obvious and teaches players to use weapons for tempo and not to stack them up for later use. Probably won't make the card any more viable, but at least more in line with how weapons are designed nowadays.

    Shaman

    I honestly have no idea what to do here, it's kind of a mess. A lot of cards feel really awkward but they still support stuff that Shaman does to this day such as Overload or Totems. A few things:

    Forked Lightning: Is just kind of pointless seeing how at turn 1 there'll almost never be two targets to hit. It would make much more sense for it to cost 2-mana but deal 3 each, that way it has some justification for existing.

    Dust Devil. Is kind of iconic but also complete garbage. Shaman never really played this hyper aggressive style of trying to stick an early drop to immediately push face and they also don't really get buffs that would really support this. I'D rather they replaced this with something like a 1-mana Murloc 3/2 Overload (1) so the whole Murloc theme is rooted in the core set seeing how it's a staple these days.

    Al'Akir the Windlord: he's just outdated. Rockbiter got nerfed so there's no wombo combo anymore and he was clearly designed as removal anyways. It would probably make sense to replace Charge with Rush, buff his stats and reduce his cost, but I don't feel qualified to come up with a concrete solution.

    Warlock

    Not gonna do Warlock here, because someone already did. Here's his thread:

    https://outof.cards/forums/fan-creations/custom-hearthstone/3588-neogulis-warlock-core-set-changes

    I left a comment down there which basically sums up my ideas for Warlock, although that class is such a clusterfuck that it's hard to really pinpoint where to start.

    Warrior

    Charge and Warsong Commander have already been confirmed to be changed at some point so no use in discussing them here.

    Cleave: A bizarre card that doesn't really connect with any of Warrior's themes and I feel it could be more practically. Possibly as a 1-mana "deal 1 to two minions" as an activator for damaging synergies or as a 3-mana "deal 2 to 3 minions". I honestly don't know what to do with it, but it just feels so out of place and outdated.

    Mortal Strike: Also a really weird card. Warrior really doesn't have any synergy with being low on health and this really only supports blind aggro and feels out of place by being one of the only face damaging spells of the class. I'd rather they'd rework it into some sort of removal that synergizes with having taken damage (maybe "deal x damage to a minion for missing health", but then again Warrior doesn't exactly need even more removal)

    Brawl: My ancient arch nemesis. I just really hate the random factor and the fact that it's always going to be the go-to boardclear for Warrior and every new one is just an afterthought.

    I'd rather the card would always have the minion with the highest attack survive so you eliminate RNG and give some interactivity with Warrior's Attack buffing shenanigans. In any case it limits design space, but I really like the flavour and I would love for it to be more tied into the Warrior aesthetic outside of just being the best thing available at all times.

    Neutral

    Since these are mostly just filler I'll only mention a few that could use some sort of update to better reflect how stat distribution works.

    Ironforge Rifleman: 2/3 or 3/2 since he's just a worse version of Elven Archer. Alternatively up his battlecry damage to 2.

    Dragonling Mechanic: 3/4 because at this point, minions that have their stats split into multiple bodies always end up with an above average statline to compensate for the split.

    [Hearthstone Card (Stonetusk Board) Not Found]: Changed to Rush so the keyword has more representation in Basic so it doesn't appear like a Demon Hunter specific keyword. Possibly also buff the attack to 2. Also gets rid of the pesky Charge keyword to avoid future OTKs. this change could possibly be applied to any of the remaining Neutral Charge minions, but none of them ever really see play so I don't see the need.

    Nightblade: Deal 4 damage. More symmetry and less obvious powercreep.

    Stormpike Commando: Health to 3.

    Lord of the Arena: Health to 6, taunt usually only subtracts one statpoint from the vanilla average.

    War Golem: Health or Attack to 8 to be a better example of asymmetrical vanilla stats

    Arcane Golem: give your opponent a card. this should be an example of a minion that gets increased stats in exchange for giving benefits to your opponent. Giving a Mana crystal is such a horrendously terrible thing that this is effectively just lying to new players about what is considered  equivalent exchange in this game.

    Silvermoon Guardian: 4/2. To better correlate with Scarlet Crusader

    Priestess of Elune: 5-mana, restore 5 health. I would like this to be the basic Healing card that's good enough to use if you're desperate and currently it's just absurdly understatted for no reason at all.

    Xavius: 5-mana, I mean for fuck's sake, it's XAVIUS, he deserves better than to just replace Illidan as wasted potential.

     

    Final thoughts

    Honestly I got pretty into this while writing. It made me realize how there's a lot of stuff in the core set that could be very easily fixed and I do hope the devs continue what they did with Priest for other classes, because it would help the game in the long run.

    Either way, tell me what you think about any of my changes, I'm sure a lot of you have had similar thoughts at some point.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • NegativeNemsy's Avatar 380 179 Posts Joined 07/10/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    You took the time to write all this, and yet no one responded.  I feel a little bad so I guess I will respond.  You did a pretty good job with your analysis.  I can agree with a majority of it.  I really liked the Animal Companion solution for example. I do have a couple of gripes with what you wrote though.

    Arcane Golem : give your opponent a card. this should be an example of a minion that gets increased stats in exchange for giving benefits to your opponent. Giving a Mana crystal is such a horrendously terrible thing that this is effectively just lying to new players about what is considered  equivalent exchange in this game."    1.  The design team might just want to show new players the power of mana ramp with this particular card instead of equivalent exchange.  Players tend to learn and remember more from losses than wins and this will be a powerful lesson for them.  2.  More importantly though is the fact that the design team has been very clear about removing almost all of the mill options out of the basic and classic sets.  Cards like Vanish, Coldlight Oracle, and Naturalize have all been HOFed.  Wild does not need another mill option either as those decks are powerfull enough.  Arcane Golem is fine as is and also serves the purpose of being an above stated minion in the 3-cost pool so they don't have to keep printing one in expansions.

    Xavius:  Can't we just swap the attack and health on this guy already so Violet Teacher can have the big brother she always wanted!

     

    1
  • dapperdog's Avatar Dragon Scholar 1600 3996 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    Seriously, you must have spent quite a lot of time with this write up. Perhaps it would have been better to space it by opening multiple threads addressing each class.

    I'll only be putting out some immediate thoughts. Maybe more later.

    Savagery - My own thoughts would be to make this "choose a minion, deal your attack damage to both it and adjacent minions." I dont like the idea of this being able to hit face because there's way too many ways for druid to raise his attack, and I dont like the idea of team5 having to design cards around this conundrum. Being able to do a slight AoE is fine, especially since you need at least 2 cards for this to work decently.

    Moonfire - No changes needed. Its already one of the weakest cards outside of Malydruid. And its relatively harmless. Druid often needs to either duplicate their Malygos or this does only 6 damage each. Not remotely threatening.

    Tundra Rhino - Its my favourite card, as a disclosure. So I'm obviously not in it to be changed in any way. It enables combo in hunter, and that's saying alot. Hunters dont do combo well for obvious reasons, and outside of combo this is just a soft taunt. Couple that with hunter's atrocious control cards (if any such existed), hunters just never live long enough to see tundra rhino do a 30 damage combo. Every now and then it allows for an occasional burst of 10-15 damage for lethal. When that happens, you'd rightly earned a pat in the back for both setting it up and spotting it. I'd let this one slide. Its perfect the way it is.

    Al'Akir the Windlord - Everyone has been laughing at this card for years. It doesnt change the fact that this card has the potential to simply take you down 12 health at 10. Even worse if you can somehow cheat some damage up on this bad boy. Either no changes, or buff him to a 5/7 but change charge to rush. I'd rather him stay as he is, to be honest.

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  • h0lysatan's Avatar Zombie 1025 704 Posts Joined 12/03/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    Another alternative for Holy Wrath, "Draw a card. Give a friendly minion attack & health based on it's mana". It could be too OP yes, but we could also make it to 6-7 mana if necessary.

    I haven't read all of it. Will add more if I find something good.

    Another alternative for Mortal Strike (following it's name) could be change to "Deal 4 damage to a minion. If that kills it, gains 4 armor." (or restore 4 health to your hero). After quick analysis, 4 armor / health is not enough. Maybe between 6-8 points.

    Another alternative for Brawl, "Choose a random minion, every other minion attacks it". I know it's weird, but this allow your board to survive if RNG pick a low attack minion. (Probably changed it's name to Scapegoat or something)

    Another alternative for Assassin's Blade. 5 mana 3/4 weapon. "Everytime your hero attack and kill a minion, add a coin to your hand". It suits it's name being a reward everytime an assassin kills it's target.

    Edwin VanCleef is actually fits Rogue Deck, so there's no need to HoF him. And I think I have a good Battlecry for Vanessa you mentioned. "Combo: Gains +2/+2 for each other card your opponent played last turn"

    Knowledge is Power

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  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 880 1345 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    I like the Bestial Wrath's existence but i would really be happy if they change it with The Beast Within which is a Green-like card of MTG that suits very well with Hunter as well.

    I mean, if some new player wants to play a control-ish Hunter, I mean one of bigger hunters, I think that they should use that card for some removal tool. I really like its synergy with cards like Wild Bloodstinger and cards with Rush and Lifesteal. I was using it with Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy to get some healing.

    I don't think that it doesn't fit classic also. It fits classic very well in my opinion.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From dapperdog

    Seriously, you must have spent quite a lot of time with this write up. Perhaps it would have been better to space it by opening multiple threads addressing each class.

    I'll only be putting out some immediate thoughts. Maybe more later.

    Savagery - My own thoughts would be to make this "choose a minion, deal your attack damage to both it and adjacent minions." I dont like the idea of this being able to hit face because there's way too many ways for druid to raise his attack, and I dont like the idea of team5 having to design cards around this conundrum. Being able to do a slight AoE is fine, especially since you need at least 2 cards for this to work decently.

    Moonfire - No changes needed. Its already one of the weakest cards outside of Malydruid. And its relatively harmless. Druid often needs to either duplicate their Malygos or this does only 6 damage each. Not remotely threatening.

    Tundra Rhino - Its my favourite card, as a disclosure. So I'm obviously not in it to be changed in any way. It enables combo in hunter, and that's saying alot. Hunters dont do combo well for obvious reasons, and outside of combo this is just a soft taunt. Couple that with hunter's atrocious control cards (if any such existed), hunters just never live long enough to see tundra rhino do a 30 damage combo. Every now and then it allows for an occasional burst of 10-15 damage for lethal. When that happens, you'd rightly earned a pat in the back for both setting it up and spotting it. I'd let this one slide. Its perfect the way it is.

    Al'Akir the Windlord - Everyone has been laughing at this card for years. It doesnt change the fact that this card has the potential to simply take you down 12 health at 10. Even worse if you can somehow cheat some damage up on this bad boy. Either no changes, or buff him to a 5/7 but change charge to rush. I'd rather him stay as he is, to be honest.

    the reason I didn't split it up was because last time I did something similar, somehow one of the posts ended up deleting itself for some reason and I gave up on the whole thing so nowadays I try to just do it all in one take.....also I was drunk and on a roll.

    I like your idea for Savagery. I wasn't comfortable with my own anyways, but couldn't come up with anything that would make the card distinctive enough.

    The thing about Al'Akir the Windlord is that he is just outclassed by Doomhammer as a finisher meaning the whole Charge thing is kind of wasted and essentially holding his statline hostage. Shaman also isn't really a class that ever used charge a lot (not even Leeroy, which is kinda weird now that I think about it) so he does give a bit of a false impression of how the class plays...then again Shaman's playstyle changes every couple expansions so who really knows at this point.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From h0lysatan

    Another alternative for Holy Wrath, "Draw a card. Give a friendly minion attack & health based on it's mana". It could be too OP yes, but we could also make it to 6-7 mana if necessary.

    I haven't read all of it. Will add more if I find something good.

    Another alternative for Mortal Strike (following it's name) could be change to "Deal 4 damage to a minion. If that kills it, gains 4 armor." (or restore 4 health to your hero). After quick analysis, 4 armor / health is not enough. Maybe between 6-8 points.

    Another alternative for Brawl, "Choose a random minion, every other minion attacks it". I know it's weird, but this allow your board to survive if RNG pick a low attack minion. (Probably changed it's name to Scapegoat or something)

    Another alternative for Assassin's Blade. 5 mana 3/4 weapon. "Everytime your hero attack and kill a minion, add a coin to your hand". It suits it's name being a reward everytime an assassin kills it's target.

    Edwin VanCleef is actually fits Rogue Deck, so there's no need to HoF him. And I think I have a good Battlecry for Vanessa you mentioned. "Combo: Gains +2/+2 for each other card your opponent played last turn"

    I wanted to rotate Holy Wrath because it doesn't really work with Paladin anyways. They don't have draw manipulation and they don't even really play high-cost cards (which there aren't even any left in standard anymore) so the card is pointless and doesn't really make sense either way.

    I was also trying to keep things as simple as possible, so while your idea for Assassin's Blade is not bad and definitely something they could use in the future it doesn't really fit a Basic card.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

    0
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From NegativeNemsy

    You took the time to write all this, and yet no one responded.  I feel a little bad so I guess I will respond.  You did a pretty good job with your analysis.  I can agree with a majority of it.  I really liked the Animal Companion solution for example. I do have a couple of gripes with what you wrote though.

    Arcane Golem : give your opponent a card. this should be an example of a minion that gets increased stats in exchange for giving benefits to your opponent. Giving a Mana crystal is such a horrendously terrible thing that this is effectively just lying to new players about what is considered  equivalent exchange in this game."    1.  The design team might just want to show new players the power of mana ramp with this particular card instead of equivalent exchange.  Players tend to learn and remember more from losses than wins and this will be a powerful lesson for them.  2.  More importantly though is the fact that the design team has been very clear about removing almost all of the mill options out of the basic and classic sets.  Cards like Vanish, Coldlight Oracle, and Naturalize have all been HOFed.  Wild does not need another mill option either as those decks are powerfull enough.  Arcane Golem is fine as is and also serves the purpose of being an above stated minion in the 3-cost pool so they don't have to keep printing one in expansions.

    Xavius:  Can't we just swap the attack and health on this guy already so Violet Teacher can have the big brother she always wanted!

     

    I honestly completely blanked on the fact that they removed Mill from Standadrd, so yeah you're right, Golem does make sense the way it is.

    Also the Xavius change is mostly so you can get value out of him since he'll always get removed within a turn anyways so at 5 he'd be easer to combo with at least.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I like the Bestial Wrath's existence but i would really be happy if they change it with The Beast Within which is a Green-like card of MTG that suits very well with Hunter as well.

    I mean, if some new player wants to play a control-ish Hunter, I mean one of bigger hunters, I think that they should use that card for some removal tool. I really like its synergy with cards like Wild Bloodstinger and cards with Rush and Lifesteal. I was using it with Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy to get some healing.

    I don't think that it doesn't fit classic also. It fits classic very well in my opinion.

    The Beast Within is a bit complicated though in terms of mechanics so I'M not sure it's a good core card.

    Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does Wild Bloodstinger synergize with either of these cards?

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 880 1345 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I like the Bestial Wrath's existence but i would really be happy if they change it with The Beast Within which is a Green-like card of MTG that suits very well with Hunter as well.

    I mean, if some new player wants to play a control-ish Hunter, I mean one of bigger hunters, I think that they should use that card for some removal tool. I really like its synergy with cards like Wild Bloodstinger and cards with Rush and Lifesteal. I was using it with Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy to get some healing.

    I don't think that it doesn't fit classic also. It fits classic very well in my opinion.

    The Beast Within is a bit complicated though in terms of mechanics so I'M not sure it's a good core card.

    Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does Wild Bloodstinger synergize with either of these cards?

    Wild Bloodstinger is just an example of a big minion but also synergizes well. When you play Wild Bloodstinger on t6-t7against an aggro or midrange deck, generally it kills the minion that it summons and stays alive with its fat health stat for most 6-mana minions. So The Beast Within helps with removing another minion on board if you are behind so makes a really good tempo swing.

    I really don't think it is complicated. I always believe that hunter needs a card that makes your beast attacks a target since beta which is the core mechanic of hunters in both mmo and rts (wc3) and they designed it on RR finally (!) which I think is too late. Kill Command should have been this effect at start in my opinion. It fits best with its effect and lore both.

    I hope, at some time, Blizzard adds it to core set. It is a basic CCG mechanic also. I really didn't understand how you do think it is complicated.

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  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 880 1345 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    Sorry for spamming but I need to add this;

    I know this will be confusing for new players since it is not a classic mechanic but Kidnapper would have great flavor if it has a text as "Combo: Choose a minion. It goes Dormant until this dies." Basically a Moat Lurker which doesn't activate deathrattles.

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  • Bluelights's Avatar 425 396 Posts Joined 04/02/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    TLDR: I don't like combo strategies? 

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From Bluelights

    TLDR: I don't like combo strategies? 

    ah yes, that's why I removed all the damage from Rogue and Mage decks.

     

    I don't like combo decks in classes that clearly weren't designed for them, at least not in the core set that's supposed to demonstrate the basic idea of the class.

     

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I like the Bestial Wrath's existence but i would really be happy if they change it with The Beast Within which is a Green-like card of MTG that suits very well with Hunter as well.

    I mean, if some new player wants to play a control-ish Hunter, I mean one of bigger hunters, I think that they should use that card for some removal tool. I really like its synergy with cards like Wild Bloodstinger and cards with Rush and Lifesteal. I was using it with Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy to get some healing.

    I don't think that it doesn't fit classic also. It fits classic very well in my opinion.

    The Beast Within is a bit complicated though in terms of mechanics so I'M not sure it's a good core card.

    Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does Wild Bloodstinger synergize with either of these cards?

    Wild Bloodstinger is just an example of a big minion but also synergizes well. When you play Wild Bloodstinger on t6-t7against an aggro or midrange deck, generally it kills the minion that it summons and stays alive with its fat health stat for most 6-mana minions. So The Beast Within helps with removing another minion on board if you are behind so makes a really good tempo swing.

    I really don't think it is complicated. I always believe that hunter needs a card that makes your beast attacks a target since beta which is the core mechanic of hunters in both mmo and rts (wc3) and they designed it on RR finally (!) which I think is too late. Kill Command should have been this effect at start in my opinion. It fits best with its effect and lore both.

    I hope, at some time, Blizzard adds it to core set. It is a basic CCG mechanic also. I really didn't understand how you do think it is complicated.

    the concept of "double attacking" might be confusing, seeing how it' not entirely obvious how it works with Rush or Charge for instance.

    Also The Beast Within was never even considered even when there was a good amount of support for it (Cave Hydra for instance) so I don't think it would really make a difference, not to mention that double attacking isn't a recurring theme in Hunter.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 880 1345 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I like the Bestial Wrath's existence but i would really be happy if they change it with The Beast Within which is a Green-like card of MTG that suits very well with Hunter as well.

    I mean, if some new player wants to play a control-ish Hunter, I mean one of bigger hunters, I think that they should use that card for some removal tool. I really like its synergy with cards like Wild Bloodstinger and cards with Rush and Lifesteal. I was using it with Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy to get some healing.

    I don't think that it doesn't fit classic also. It fits classic very well in my opinion.

    The Beast Within is a bit complicated though in terms of mechanics so I'M not sure it's a good core card.

    Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does Wild Bloodstinger synergize with either of these cards?

    Wild Bloodstinger is just an example of a big minion but also synergizes well. When you play Wild Bloodstinger on t6-t7against an aggro or midrange deck, generally it kills the minion that it summons and stays alive with its fat health stat for most 6-mana minions. So The Beast Within helps with removing another minion on board if you are behind so makes a really good tempo swing.

    I really don't think it is complicated. I always believe that hunter needs a card that makes your beast attacks a target since beta which is the core mechanic of hunters in both mmo and rts (wc3) and they designed it on RR finally (!) which I think is too late. Kill Command should have been this effect at start in my opinion. It fits best with its effect and lore both.

    I hope, at some time, Blizzard adds it to core set. It is a basic CCG mechanic also. I really didn't understand how you do think it is complicated.

    the concept of "double attacking" might be confusing, seeing how it' not entirely obvious how it works with Rush or Charge for instance.

    Also The Beast Within was never even considered even when there was a good amount of support for it (Cave Hydra for instance) so I don't think it would really make a difference, not to mention that double attacking isn't a recurring theme in Hunter.

    never even considered by ? Streamers ? Pros ? You ?

    I don't care the sampling of the internet sites and netdecks. I used it in enough times and still using it in wild. It is mostly useful with Deathstalker Rexxar. anyways; You're just hampering and don't even open to other suggestions. At least, one can easily see that from your quotes. You're the type of guy that is "My changes or no changes". So why you bother yourself to open a discussion in a forum at the first place.

    Good luck with your changes and wet dreams. There is no discussion but forcing your thoughts here.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I like the Bestial Wrath's existence but i would really be happy if they change it with The Beast Within which is a Green-like card of MTG that suits very well with Hunter as well.

    I mean, if some new player wants to play a control-ish Hunter, I mean one of bigger hunters, I think that they should use that card for some removal tool. I really like its synergy with cards like Wild Bloodstinger and cards with Rush and Lifesteal. I was using it with Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy to get some healing.

    I don't think that it doesn't fit classic also. It fits classic very well in my opinion.

    The Beast Within is a bit complicated though in terms of mechanics so I'M not sure it's a good core card.

    Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does Wild Bloodstinger synergize with either of these cards?

    Wild Bloodstinger is just an example of a big minion but also synergizes well. When you play Wild Bloodstinger on t6-t7against an aggro or midrange deck, generally it kills the minion that it summons and stays alive with its fat health stat for most 6-mana minions. So The Beast Within helps with removing another minion on board if you are behind so makes a really good tempo swing.

    I really don't think it is complicated. I always believe that hunter needs a card that makes your beast attacks a target since beta which is the core mechanic of hunters in both mmo and rts (wc3) and they designed it on RR finally (!) which I think is too late. Kill Command should have been this effect at start in my opinion. It fits best with its effect and lore both.

    I hope, at some time, Blizzard adds it to core set. It is a basic CCG mechanic also. I really didn't understand how you do think it is complicated.

    the concept of "double attacking" might be confusing, seeing how it' not entirely obvious how it works with Rush or Charge for instance.

    Also The Beast Within was never even considered even when there was a good amount of support for it (Cave Hydra for instance) so I don't think it would really make a difference, not to mention that double attacking isn't a recurring theme in Hunter.

    never even considered by ? Streamers ? Pros ? You ?

    I don't care the sampling of the internet sites and netdecks. I used it in enough times and still using it in wild. It is mostly useful with Deathstalker Rexxar. anyways; You're just hampering and don't even open to other suggestions. At least, one can easily see that from your quotes. You're the type of guy that is "My changes or no changes". So why you bother yourself to open a discussion in a forum at the first place.

    Good luck with your changes and wet dreams. There is no discussion but forcing your thoughts here.

    what are you on about? The card is objectively bad, it doesn't matter whether you like to play it or not. I'm here to make a core set that fits with Blizzards ideas not some whacky clown set (otherwise I would have just made Warlock an all Discard class for my own sake).

    What do you mean I'M forcing my thoughts`I#m literally trying to discuss these things yet you're the one getting upset when I'm not agreeing with your suggestions?

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 880 1345 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I like the Bestial Wrath's existence but i would really be happy if they change it with The Beast Within which is a Green-like card of MTG that suits very well with Hunter as well.

    I mean, if some new player wants to play a control-ish Hunter, I mean one of bigger hunters, I think that they should use that card for some removal tool. I really like its synergy with cards like Wild Bloodstinger and cards with Rush and Lifesteal. I was using it with Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy to get some healing.

    I don't think that it doesn't fit classic also. It fits classic very well in my opinion.

    The Beast Within is a bit complicated though in terms of mechanics so I'M not sure it's a good core card.

    Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does Wild Bloodstinger synergize with either of these cards?

    Wild Bloodstinger is just an example of a big minion but also synergizes well. When you play Wild Bloodstinger on t6-t7against an aggro or midrange deck, generally it kills the minion that it summons and stays alive with its fat health stat for most 6-mana minions. So The Beast Within helps with removing another minion on board if you are behind so makes a really good tempo swing.

    I really don't think it is complicated. I always believe that hunter needs a card that makes your beast attacks a target since beta which is the core mechanic of hunters in both mmo and rts (wc3) and they designed it on RR finally (!) which I think is too late. Kill Command should have been this effect at start in my opinion. It fits best with its effect and lore both.

    I hope, at some time, Blizzard adds it to core set. It is a basic CCG mechanic also. I really didn't understand how you do think it is complicated.

    the concept of "double attacking" might be confusing, seeing how it' not entirely obvious how it works with Rush or Charge for instance.

    Also The Beast Within was never even considered even when there was a good amount of support for it (Cave Hydra for instance) so I don't think it would really make a difference, not to mention that double attacking isn't a recurring theme in Hunter.

    never even considered by ? Streamers ? Pros ? You ?

    I don't care the sampling of the internet sites and netdecks. I used it in enough times and still using it in wild. It is mostly useful with Deathstalker Rexxar. anyways; You're just hampering and don't even open to other suggestions. At least, one can easily see that from your quotes. You're the type of guy that is "My changes or no changes". So why you bother yourself to open a discussion in a forum at the first place.

    Good luck with your changes and wet dreams. There is no discussion but forcing your thoughts here.

    what are you on about? The card is objectively bad, it doesn't matter whether you like to play it or not. I'm here to make a core set that fits with Blizzards ideas not some whacky clown set (otherwise I would have just made Warlock an all Discard class for my own sake).

    What do you mean I'M forcing my thoughts`I#m literally trying to discuss these things yet you're the one getting upset when I'm not agreeing with your suggestions?

    I've spoke on general on my last words. Read all of the comments etc. I felt like you're not discussing but trying your point to be agreed. That's my impression tho.

    I'm not on what I was suggesting. I was on your attitude. Anyways, good discussing. I don't feel discussing here.

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  • meisterz39's Avatar 925 1200 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago

    Some immediate thoughts on the neutrals:

    Dragonling Mechanic: I think your basic theory around splitting across bodies is based too heavily on what class cards do. Some examples include Shrubadier is slightly above vanilla, Sky Claw is vanilla but includes a buff, Duskbat is a little over vanilla). But class cards are supposed to be stronger than neutral cards. Murloc Tidehunter is vanilla, Razorfen Hunter is vanilla. This choice to buff just seems pretty arbitrary.

    Silvermoon Guardian: If this card were a Scarlet themed card, I'd agree with your change, but as the two cards are not thematically related, I think the 3/3 statline is fine here.

    Priestess of Elune: Your recommendation here amounts to bundling two basic cards (Chillwind Yeti and Radiance) for exactly the cost of both. There are two big problems with this - first, Priest is supposed to be the best at healing, and having healing tools that are equal (or better) than Priest's takes away from that identity. Second, bundling needs to cost some tax because if it doesn't, playing the bundled card in place of the other two is basically like getting a free card slot in your deck.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Skeleton 1915 4037 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From meisterz39

    Some immediate thoughts on the neutrals:

    Dragonling Mechanic: I think your basic theory around splitting across bodies is based too heavily on what class cards do. Some examples include Shrubadier is slightly above vanilla, Sky Claw is vanilla but includes a buff, Duskbat is a little over vanilla). But class cards are supposed to be stronger than neutral cards. Murloc Tidehunter is vanilla, Razorfen Hunter is vanilla. This choice to buff just seems pretty arbitrary.

    Silvermoon Guardian: If this card were a Scarlet themed card, I'd agree with your change, but as the two cards are not thematically related, I think the 3/3 statline is fine here.

    Priestess of Elune: Your recommendation here amounts to bundling two basic cards (Chillwind Yeti and Radiance) for exactly the cost of both. There are two big problems with this - first, Priest is supposed to be the best at healing, and having healing tools that are equal (or better) than Priest's takes away from that identity. Second, bundling needs to cost some tax because if it doesn't, playing the bundled card in place of the other two is basically like getting a free card slot in your deck.

    I was going off something like Silver Hand Knight

    Below 3-mana neutrals (and even class cards) don't really follow these rules (for instance the Beast tax only kicks in at 3-mana). Also Tribal minions like the Murloc usually come with a mana tax anyways.

    The Silvermoon thing is mostly preference based because it seems kind off pointless to have two cards with the same attack value and DS, but one comes with added health. It can see your point there.

    Priestess I won't conede purely on the basis of Voodoo Doctor and Earthen Ring Farseer. Compared to those two she just flops hard. I guess making her a 4/4 would work too, however, in terms of stats, she is worse than the previous two because she can't heal minions, meaning that she should, in theory get above average stats. Also 5/4 is oveall weaker than 4/5 in terms of board impact.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • meisterz39's Avatar 925 1200 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 years, 3 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    Priestess I won't conede purely on the basis of Voodoo Doctor and Earthen Ring Farseer. Compared to those two she just flops hard. I guess making her a 4/4 would work too, however, in terms of stats, she is worse than the previous two because she can't heal minions, meaning that she should, in theory get above average stats. Also 5/4 is oveall weaker than 4/5 in terms of board impact.

    "Big healing" is a class feature for Priest, which is why you see more flexible small healing in neutrals than you do big healing. The comparisons to Voodoo Doctor and Earthen Ring Farseer makes some sense, but you yourself pointed out that the rules differ between low and high cost neutrals (at least when it comes to splitting stats). This is just another example where a neutral card is intentionally weak to make room for class identity/differentiation.

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