Reality check: Core isn't saving everyone money

  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1165 1791 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago
    Quote From KANSAS

    The current basic/classic set contains very few useful cards. Which means in order to build a decent deck (50% winrate or above) you will have to rely heavily on expansion cards, which cost money. If the new rotating core set gives players useful, playable cards for free, then you will need fewer expansion cards to build a decent deck. Meaning that you can get by climbing the ladder and winning matches for fewer dollars.

    I get where you are coming from since taking away cards from players collections just to add cards to their collection for free doesn't really gain you anything, and there are still just as many expansions and mini-sets to purchase. But if the new core set gives players useful, playable cards then it means that the average player (whether veteran or new) will be required to spend fewer dollars on expansion cards to stay competitive. 

    That point has already been discussed, and I pointed out that it was pure speculation. You have no idea what the meta will be like or what the mix of cards will be in the top decks. Blizzard makes money by selling cards, so my thought is that it's a pretty safe bet the expansion cards are still going to fill the lion's shard of slots in most of the competitive decks.

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1165 1791 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago
    Quote From meisterz39

    Here's a more concrete example: imagine your local area is decreasing sales tax by 1% effective today. You might say that the sales tax decrease doesn't have any immediate benefit to you because you're not shopping today, but that's an arbitrary and disingenuous way to discuss the impact of such a change.

    Similarly, the Core Set change has no immediate financial impact on players because they're not spending money on it. But so long as it decrease the ongoing costs of staying up-to-date with Hearthstone, it will benefit veteran and new players alike. That is what all of these articles are saying - over time, the cost of the game will go down thanks to this change.

    Except everyone IS "shopping today" because we are comparing veteran players to newer players at the launch of an expansion at the beginning of a rotation. If anything is arbitrary and disingenuous, it's your irrelevant analogy.

    The Core set does have an immediate financial impact on new players because they get a bunch of cards for free. That's the whole point, and it's great. But it doesn't help me personally because in a non-Core world, I already had all the non-expansion cards I would have needed. Giving me something for free that replaces something I already had is not a benefit.

    And no, the articles are not saying anything about "over time." And no, you cannot definitively say the cost of the game will go down over time, anyway. Blizzard makes money by selling expansions. They are not going to make the Core set so powerful that it cuts in to expansion sales. Talk about disingenuous.

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  • meisterz39's Avatar 925 1200 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago

    Quote From FortyDust
    Except everyone IS "shopping today" because we are comparing veteran players to newer players at the launch of an expansion at the beginning of a rotation.

    No one is saying that new players aren't getting a better deal out of this - I conceded as much in my original response. But new player and veteran player value are independent variables. Your complaint is with what you believe to be a misrepresentation of veteran player value in gaming media, so any comparisons to new player value only serves to conflate issues. This is exactly why I got into questions of fairness and refunds in an earlier post (not based on H0lySatan's post, as I mentioned) - you're using the difference between new player and veteran player value to claim misrepresentation, which implicitly brings up these questions of fair value to veteran players.

    Quote From FortyDust
    And no, you cannot definitively say the cost of the game will go down over time, anyway. Blizzard makes money by selling expansions. They are not going to make the Core set so powerful that it cuts in to expansion sales.

    It's clear we're not ever going to see eye-to-eye on this, so I'm not going to continue to engage on this beyond this final post. The question of "will the cost of the game go down" is the heart of this issue here. It's clear you believe that switching from Classic/Basic sets to the new Core Set will be net-neutral in terms of what percentage of any given deck comes from "core cards" vs expansion cards, and therefore won't impact the cost of meta decks, which in turn means it won't impact the practical costs of keeping up with the meta after an expansion. If that's true, then the switch will certainly add zero economic value for any player who already had a full Classic set.

    But as I've already cited in an earlier post, Celestalon has said we should expect the base power level of the Core Set to be higher than Classic/Basic because, as a rotating set, it can afford to be stronger than an evergreen set can without introducing long-term balance issues. Whether you choose to believe that Celestalon is honestly expressing the intent of the Hearthstone team is up to you, but if the Core Set is stronger than the Classic/Basic sets, the natural result will be a higher percentage of meta decks coming from core cards, which in turn makes it cheaper to keep up-to-date with the meta. That benefit is conferred on every player, veteran or not. And that is what people are putting forth in these articles - the idea that the Core Set will be stronger and more valuable than the Classic/Basic sets ever were.

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  • h0lysatan's Avatar Zombie 1060 762 Posts Joined 12/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago
    Quote From dapperdog

    You're compensated by having both your old cards (which you can dust) and getting the new core set for free.

    When we made the decision to purchase at a point of time, and that product later gets discounted or retired, I don't think its even remotely logical to then demand for compensation, especially since we're talking about products that have existed way beyond 1 year.

    Why would I hold to something that I can't play? I'm not a Wild player, And, Classic set will be unusable to me personally, because I can't play wild with only Classic set, so everything unusable to me is automatically dusted, which was the whole point I'm trying to say. And to tell the truth, I don't feel very 'compensated' with that ~1/4 value of my own collections. I owned all those cards, is it not fair if I get the same value out of my own collections?

    And no, I'm only gonna discuss the classic set. I don't really have personal opinion on the Core set as of now. (whether it's good or bad)

    Knowledge is Power

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1165 1791 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago
    Quote From meisterz39

    And that is what people are putting forth in these articles - the idea that the Core Set will be stronger and more valuable than the Classic/Basic sets ever were.

    Well, we know what's in Core now, and all I have to say is LOL.

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  • argydaf's Avatar 95 10 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago

    Can't we disenchant all our classic cards that will be on the core set though (88 cards)? I mean we will get them again for free, so this is some kind of value for old players.

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  • h0lysatan's Avatar Zombie 1060 762 Posts Joined 12/03/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago
    Quote From argydaf

    Can't we disenchant all our classic cards that will be on the core set though (88 cards)? I mean we will get them again for free, so this is some kind of value for old players.

    For your question, it depends if you play Wild or not. All Basic & Classic set (will be called Legacy) will move out to Wild.
    Feel free to dust your collection if you don't play Wild, since all cards from Core set is free. (obtainable only from progressive level of your hero up to 10)

    Knowledge is Power

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  • Dreams's Avatar Banned Pikachu 340 290 Posts Joined 11/05/2020
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago
    Quote From Modalko

    While I see your point, there are a few things we should add to the equation here: 

    • Tavern brawl will no longer reward classic packs, so you'll now get an additional 50 useful packs per year, possibly reducing the tax on your wallet by a full pre-order - or maybe reducing the need to buy additional packs in addition to the preorder.
    • I (and many other old players who don't really care for Wild/Classic) now have the option to dust massive amounts of classic cards. With the regular rewards track easily making it possible to get 80-odd packs and the mini-expac, the extra dust would be enough to craft pretty much everything most players would want for the coming year.  
    • As far as I see, it's not Blizzard who said that they'd be "giving old players who have spent a great deal of money on the game a little break from opening their wallets." but the author of the article. Not even in the interview that the article references to do the Blizzard guys say anything along those lines.  Even though I despise corporate PR from most companies, using this statement as an example of Activision's PR propaganda isn't fair.

    Tavern Brawl isn't saving anyone money just sto

    Banned for spamming.

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  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 880 1345 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 1 year, 5 months ago
    Quote From meisterz39

    Quote From FortyDust
    They are canceling hundreds of cards that were supposed to be permanent…I'm just saying it's kind of stupid that these articles keep saying it's a boon to the wallets of veteran players when that is clearly not the case.

    If I understand you right, you're suggesting that this is economically bad for veteran players because they've already spent a lot of money on their full Classic collection, which they were told would be evergreen in Hearthstone. If that's what you're arguing, then your argument is based on the sunk cost fallacy. Any money veteran players have spent on their Classic collection is gone, so at the point that you've collected a full collection of Classic cards, the only economic question left in the game is whether or not you're going to keep spending money on future expansions. To suggest otherwise is to assert that the sunk cost of having a full Classic set should weigh in on your present economic choices, which it plainly shouldn't.

    So, if the Core Set enables you to make a meta deck with a higher percentage of "Core" cards (i.e. Evergreen cards today, Core soon) than before without costing you a cent, then you have fewer expansion cards you need to buy or craft to build your deck, and can therefore save money and in-game resources that you might have otherwise spent. This is why the Core set is economically positive for all players. The Tavern Brawl thing is an added (and long overdue) bonus on top of that, but it's not strictly necessary.

    The other part of your argument that I think might merit some attention is this idea that Blizzard promised that these cards would be evergreen. No one ever bemoans the fact that expansion sets rotate (even though this same complaint could just as easily be lobbed at annual Standard rotations) because we expect those sets to rotate. Ultimately, though, I think the question you have to ask is "would knowing that this set would rotate five years after it became the evergreen Standard set have changed your behavior?" At some level, that's a personal question each player would have to answer for themselves, but I think there are two things worth noting about the question generally. First, in those five years you could have picked up 260 classic packs for free from Tavern Brawls. Second, buying into five years of the evergreen set would probably still yield a fair value when compared to a single year of an expansion set. It's hard for me to believe knowing the Classic set only had a five-year run ahead of it would have changed anything that anyone did.

    So, to the extent that you feel this is unfair to veteran players, and that some refund is due for anyone who spent money on the Classic set because of this promise, I guess all I can say is "get over it." For any player who enjoyed their time playing Classic cards, I think it's disingenuous to suggest that they're owed something simply because those cards are rotating, and new players won't have to buy into the Classic set in the future. Some of the first cards I crafted were Sylvanas Windrunner and Ragnaros the Firelord because of how powerful they were, and they were among the first cards to be Hall-of-Famed. I didn't think Blizzard owed me anything because I had enjoyed all of the time I had spent playing those cards and gotten my money's worth out of them.

    I really wonder that;  Can you say those reasonings for a player who starts the game in january 2020 and buys great amount of Classic packs due to their evergreen guarantee? or crafted some classic legendaries with their very limited dust.

    Just answer this question and then we will ok to agree that you will already enjoyed with what you bought well enough.

    Veteran players who plays this game for 7 years may not even care for these core set changes just because they already enjoyed their product they bought but some players that started the game just bunch of weeks/months ago might have bought Classic packs just for they are evergreen. May be I don't deserve a compensation just because of that I already played with them for a lot of time but you can't say those comperatively new players who just bought great amount of classic packs deserve some compensation for reality.

    If you sell products under the name of "evergreen" until the changes happen, even you make your users apply some ridiculous "terms of use" and "Blizzard can do any changes in any time without asking permission" rubbish, Even if it is not their right to ask legally just because they apply TOU ,You should give some compensation to those people ethically.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm like you and I honestly think that I have already enjoyed what I bought in 7 years but it is the reality that some people bought some classic packs due to its evergreen statement not long ago. I have an acquaintance from web who did that in november and can't even played with those cards enough time. He bought those classic packs just because people around web advised him to do that because of its evergreen statement even if I told him it is blizzard and everything can change in one day.

    Before defending some thoughts, please just try to evaluate all of the possibilities. I will repeat again, Maybe we - 7 years of users might not deserve compensation but some people really do.

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