Do control options need to be re-evaluated

  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    So Tempo decks are essentially ruling the meta right  now

    1. Azir Irelia 58 percent winrate

    2. Zed Sivir 57.5

    3. Pirate aggro 58.7

    4. leblanc sivir and shen jarvan 56.5

    5. discard aggro 56.8

    6. Zed Temo 56.3

    7. Draven Fizz 57.1

    The reality is that there isn't a single slower deck that breaks the 55% winrate barrier, meaning that none of them can be considered A/S tier if we are simple going off statistics

    Poor turbo thralls has dropped from a S tier deck to barely a 50% winrate, I think that this is definitely indicative that tempo>control right now

    Ideally we would see a healthy balance between these two forces, where opponents who hit the board hard without thinking can get punished 

    But as it stands right now this simple isn't the case if we go by the numbers

    Do we need to start seeing across the board buffs to removal options?

    If combat tricks can give a card 3/1 for 1 mana or 3/0 0/3 for two, what about removal buffs?

    6 mana vengence, 7 mana reckoning, 4 mana grasp, a P and Z card that does 4 dmg like soul spear

    If we look at any of these deck lists none of them are attempting to control out the opponent that's a problem

    Let's see one more balance adjustment with a focus on removal options in August

  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar Soldier 555 873 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    To stick to my point from the previous control talk:

    Why does control have to be strong why do we need the likes of tlc/FTR control in the meta?

    LoR has been a midrange oriented game when it was released, and majority of players liked it that way. There is nothing wrong with the nope players not getting what they want because then games tend to be not very engaging.

    If you want to know what I am talking of: just take a look at mtg's current Standard 2022 format being dominated by dimir/esper control.

    You litereally have to win until turn 4-5 against a deck with several counters, chumbblockers and killspells or you will lose the game.

    While LoR is miles away from this state I just want to remind why riot is careful with creating strong control cards because there is always a risk of a control meta where games tend to be many things but not fun or engaging.

  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    Tempo and midrange aren't really the same thing.

    To use an mtg example since we are going there, one of the older metas was dominated by mono blue tempo.

    It was all two mana counter spells, creatures that bounced your opponents creatures, and getting big flyers (elusives) on the board and combat tricks to keep them alive including hex proof (spell shield)

    Sound familiar?

    Tempo is about speed and non interactivity, do we want legends to be a game that is dominated by cards that you can't do anything about?

    When I say control, removal, what I'm really talking about is interactivity. The game should always have nope options, you did a thing I stopped you from doing your thing.

    Right now the game is decided by you do your thing I do my thing let's see who's thing wins.

    Not a fan personally...and I know other players who are struggling with the same vanilla removal tools we have had since the games release are feeling the pain too

  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar Soldier 555 873 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    We are miles away from an archetype like monoblue tempo, which is a red flag for me till today for being one of the most obnoxious to play against archetypes.

    Monoblue was the result of a powercreep in counterspells during it's era, allowing the deck to completely shut down decks that don't play a 1-3 cmc curve or that are immune to counterspells (which not a single deck was during that time).

    Tempo decks in general aren't that disruptive. They play a mix between disruption, cheap but effective creatures and cheap carddraw. If they work they usually become one of the top decks without praying much on a specific archtype. They usually are unversally good decks that if you can pilot them correctly can beat every archetype which I prefer over strongly polarising archetypes like aggro, combo or control.


  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    This is the thing though.

    If removal is A over costed B a speed slower then combat tricks, it will always be relatively useless as more and more tricks get printed.

    It would be like in old school magic if combat tricks were "interupt" speed and removal "instant" speed it would be hugely problematic.

    This is what we are seeing now, especially because these tricks A counter removal attempts B result in massive burst dmg

    These decks that prioritize non interactivity and speed will remain superior in every instance.

    Like what are we arguing against here? Minor cost reductions to removal where necessary to make control variants of shadow, P and Z, Demacia, and Freijord viable again.

    Like when was the last time you lost to a ruination? Think real hard about it...what about a true shot barage? When was the last time you played progress day, or reckoning or any card that wasn't about you completing your game plan as opposed to denying your opponents. The answer is you don't and you haven't.

  • minuano28's Avatar Mountain 700 860 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 1 year, 4 months ago

    In my opinion removal cards are good the way they are. It's the burst speed buff spells who are too strong:

    Cards like Sharpsight, Troll Chant and the recently buffed Twin Disciplines have powerful effects for a cheap price.

    So do we need to buff removal? I think the answer is no, because that would just lead to power creep. I think a better solution would be to tone down those burst speed spells.

    With that being said, I do like this current meta, I have no problem climbing with non meta decks, something that I couldn't do in the previous one.

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