Up To Date Winrates Post Patch

  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    Man the tier list is straight up out the window right now.

    https://lor.mobalytics.gg/stats/regions

    When you actually examine the up to date win rates for decks the existing tier lists are essentially useless.

    We have seen a massive number of decks drop to a barely playable winrate like 51%

    So I'll list only the decks that are currently 53% and higher, yes the list is kinda scuffed.

    1. Kenin Ahiri 57% combo is doing well into the grindy card piles people are running

    2. Spider aggro 57% yeeep good old Elise perhaps the best vanilla champ

    3. Pirate aggro 56% never went anywhere always was good always will  be

    4. Lurk 55% the most resilient midrange deck in Runeterra will always have a place

    5. Pantheon 54% Whiteflame is a good card bro

    6. Rally Zed 54% you know the drill

    7. Darkness 53% solid control

    8. Poros 53% grindy aggro

    Everything else has dropped to 0 like a bullet. Plunder midrange get out of here, poppy decks gone, yordle burn gone, Sion never knew yeee, Akshan who? Lee Sin what? 

    Honestly it's time for a new mobalytics tier list  because all these nerfs, plus the recent buffs, plus meta defining grindy cards like white flame have absolutely upset the meta.

    -1
  • minuano28's Avatar
    Mountain 665 679 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    I liked most of changes in the patch but man was that Sion nerf stupid.

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  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 4 days ago

    Yeah I have nothing against the meta persay it seems to punish a lot of traditional deck building styles like midrange or many forms of spell control.

    Youre either the aggro, the one combo deck always Ahiri, or you're just grindy board value card pile.

    So I think in general Champs just seem bad right now, like trying turbo level something or build around in general. It would explain why Poros is doing as well as it's doing its just grindy value beef.

    -1
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar
    Soldier 505 670 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 4 days ago

    I think poros and spiders mainly work because they have many cheap units that get buffed by Iceborn Legacy to unresonable sizes. There is simply no elusive deck that can compete with a bunch of 5/5 Daring Poros or any midrange/control list that can answer turn 5 boards  filled with 4/3 spiderlings

    To me the best thing riot could do now is to revert Iceborn Legacy to it's original effect which means 3 mana burst speed but only grant +1/+1. 

    Old Iceborn Legacy was really good New Iceborn Legacy is imo too good. 

    What do you think?

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  • minuano28's Avatar
    Mountain 665 679 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    I don't really have a problem with spiders, Spiderling don't have evasive keywords so you can block them with your unit's, and SI/Freljords don't have many cheap ways of generating spiders outside of Crawling Sensation which you can play around. So yeah a Spider deck will out value you eventually but you can slow down their aggression until you get your own win con ready.

    Elusive poros on the other hand are just cancer, you can tutor them with Poro Herder, you have many cheap ways to generate more in the form of Poro Cannon and Iterative Improvement and contrary to spiders they don't entirely depends on Iceborn Legacy, because they have Poro Snax for extra buffs. Then you have the Elusive keyword which require you to have a unit plus Sharpsight or a silence just to block the damn thing.

    The game definitely need more reach like effects. Otherwise any time they make some good buff cards, you can bet that some elusive deck is gonna abuse them. It already happened in the past with Solitary Monk and Stand Alone and more recently with Poppy/Zed.

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  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar
    Soldier 505 670 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    even with reach being a thing the Daring Poro strategy will be very hard to disrupt. 

    most decks can kill 1-2 5/5 elusives already but 5+  of them that cost only 1 mana each? There is no deck that realistically can do so and even with reach there won't.

    Especially Ionia doesn't have any form of counterplay to legacy Daring Poros despite being one of the regions witht the best removal in the game and being the region with the highest number of elusive units. Their elusive units are too small their counterspells can't interact with snacks/iceborn and their recall effects... well aren't that good when used on 1 mana units. 

    Other regions also struggle with poros (or more like cheap elusive spam that doesn't have to do anything with the original poro theme) no questions asked but given that THE counterplay regions knows no answer to this strategy make it look really degenerate to me.

    You best bet is to rush the poro player and despite that being doable it's only doable for a small subset of decks.

     

     

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  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    My big thing is I like when Champs are good. Like the kindred buff was nice. A while back the jarvan level up buff was great.

    But when vanilla followed cards like whiteflame, iceborn tribal, generic value card piles are the optimal way to play the game things feel pretty boring.

    So I'd rather see something toxic like fiora Shen, tf Fizz, Azir Irelia, because those decks actually do things and have unique play patterns etc.

    Like hate them all you want but what's less stupid a fizz level up into a bunch of small free elusive, or a 1/1 elusive poro grinding out value into a big chonker. No animation, no card synergy, no champ, just blaaaaaah.

    Like actual card vomit turned into a deck. So one solution is to again keep saying this buff Champs and keep buffing underplayed Champs till they aren't underplayed. That takes priority over nerfs for me.

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  • minuano28's Avatar
    Mountain 665 679 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    That just like saying hey let's replace this trash with garbage.

    Twisted Fate/Fizz didn't play that much different from elusive poro it was mostly about spamming a bunch of zero mana elusives and buffing them. TF was just their to make the deck more consistent and offer a secondary win con.

    Fiora/Shen was never toxic, it didn't make control or aggro unplayable and even at it's most powerful the deck had a mostly a 50/50, 45/55 match up table but it was a top tier for a long time so people got tired or it same thing happened to Ezreal/Draven.

    The frustrating part to me is that they are lot's of fun deck in this meta Senna/Veigar, Taliyah/Ziggs, Pantheon/Taric, Turbo Thralls but they are overshadowed yet another elusive deck. 

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  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days ago

    I used a example of decks people know about that featured Champs as primary win cons.

    But like sure if we are dreaming let's go top tier Ash Thres, Thaliyah Malphite, top tier deep.

    I just want champ focused win cons to actually win games.

    Most decks that win seen to win despite any Champs they are running as opposed to because of them.

    Ezreal Kenin used to win because kenin burned opponents down to 0.

    Now Kenin delays the game until Ahiri can elusive swing you down to 0. Like if she just was a vanilla 2/3 elusive quick attack follower it would literally change nothing.

    Good Champs, with unique play styles and wincons, over grindy value wars where you just swing over ans over again with hard to remove stuff for value.

    Edit: Champs are supposed to be Runeterras plainswalkers (mtg) and unfortunately Legends doesn't work as a card game if 95% of those planeswalkers (aka the characters you care about) are just a joke. Like they hit the board and they are less threatening than 1 one mana fur ball...that's the game right now.

    -1
  • sto650's Avatar
    Santa Braum 585 584 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    The winrate of poros is not nearly as high as people think it is.

    It was very heavily played for, like, 2 days, and now it's dropped off very steeply. It's not actually as big of a problem as people initially thought it was.

    On a related note - can we all, as a CCG community, just stop with the knee-jerk reactions? How many times do we have to get egg on our faces by crying for nerfs or making predictions with only 2 days of data in a volatile meta?

    If poros is posting high winrates and high playrate in two weeks, THAT is the time to call for nerfs, to whine about it, etc etc. But not mere days after it even became a real thing, for basically the first time ever.

    Side note - Iceborn Daring Poros is NOT an aggro deck. It's a combo deck. People who try to play it as aggro (by dropping daring poros as soon as they draw them) are gonna get their butts handed to them by any competent player.

    3
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar
    Soldier 505 670 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    I personally hate to call decks like daring poro buff a combo deck because it's not like you actually combine 2 cards combining  their effects for greater payoff. 

    Iceborn legacy decks all tend to be token decks where the key function of your deck is to replicate card x as much as possible. In a way that is a "combo" but really it's just playing the same card over and over and over and more of a strange midrange deck.

    To me poros are as much of a combo deck as jade golems in hs are. 

    Edit: I will only consider those decks combo decks where a sequence of cards played result in a direct win, or where a specific synergy is used to break midocre cards. Anthem effects like Poro Snax and or Iceborn Legacy do not count for me.

    1
  • sto650's Avatar
    Santa Braum 585 584 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    Let's see if we can lay out the key components of a combo deck:

    1. A small handful of key cards that combine together to give a high chance of just winning immediately when those cards are drawn and played.

    2. Most of the rest of the deck is card draw, to make sure you find the combo.

    3. It takes at least a few turns to set up the combo. It doesn't really have an alternate wincon - it wins with the combo or it loses. It also has VERY little interaction to respond to what the opponent is doing. It just tries to pull off its own gameplan.

    4. It is vulnerable to being "rushed down" while it tries to assemble its combo.

    5. Probably some other things I'm not thinking of.

    Regardless, all of those things are true about Iceborn Daring Poros. I don't think it fits any other category besides combo. And you beat it the same way you beat combo - rush it down, or force it to defend itself (which it cannot do). And incidentally, this is why the winrate is not out of control - it's quite vulnerable to some decks.

    1
  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    I've had this buff Champs stance for like six months now. I don't actually want anymore nerfs. I've said that too.

    Like every single time they buff a champ I revisit the game braum, anivia, Trundle, Kindred, Jarvan, etc.

    And I'll do the same if TF is actually possible to level again, or Fiora.

    Like every single champ nerf narrowed the valid play field and sometimes this is necessary when a deck is oppressive but assuming that certain Champs will remain oppressive for the rest of the games life cycle is kinda dumb.

    Like TF is cool, people want to play TF and they want to level him, like that's the game.

    Just using card Boi as an example.

    #strongchampions #onlybuffs #funreuneterra

    -2
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar
    Soldier 505 670 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    I kinda can agree that Twisted Fate wasn't too opressive toward any specific strategy. The "problem" with him is his jack of all trades nature that turns him into a strong champion no matter what the matchup is. I could see reverting the nerf to his level up condition while keeping Pick a Card as it is.

    Fiora however really needs a rework: how about giving Fiora a selfheal/value identity: make her level 1 Form a 3/3 challenger that when it slays an enemy restores it's life completely and level 2 Fiora a 4/4 with scout that restores her life on slay and grant herself +1/+1

    She would be a very powerful duellist and she would fit demacia's board oriented playstyle she however doesn't resemble an all in wincondition anymore.

    A Champion that also needs a reword since ages is lee sin. Sure we don't have a meta where he shines right now but does that mean he is a healthy champion no and he proably will never be healthy in his current form. I currently don't know how a strong but fair lee sin would look like but for sure it would look different than his current form.

     

    0
  • Neoguli's Avatar
    Duskrider 805 465 Posts Joined 06/25/2019
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    The problem with Lee is Zenith Blade, or any card that gives Overwhelm. THAT is why he was prevalent when he was, because he could OTK you without that much effort. I don't think it's good service to nerf Dragon's Rage and consequently his lvl 2 just because of Overwhelm, but that keyword makes OTK Lee decks that much more oppressive.

    I would still think it's better to just nerf Zenith Blade without touching Lee - that way, he's not as oppressive because of less incentive to run him with Targon. Perhaps giving Overwhelm only on Daybreak would be a solid middle-ground so that the Lee player has to make a more meaningful choice, and also can't play Lee into Blade on the same time without Rahvun.

    "Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me

    "If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me

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  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

    Runeterra just isn't very fun if Champs feel like follower, or are even worse than followers.

    Like I would never play Fiora over Laurent protégé now, and that's really bad.

    Tf is basically just a cycle or removal tool that's bad too.

    Thresh is a worse challenger dragon in every sense this is also bad.

    Like I can do this all day but the point is Runeterra as a card game doesn't function unless Champions feel like planeswalkers aka have inherent deck synergies, have level requirements that are game winning.

    Its like when Gwent got rid of gold immunity and gold cards felt worse than bronze cards. It literally destroyed their game and belive it or not fans asked for this. Like nerf gold cards they are too strong and now all of a sudden your motivation for playing the game is gone.

    -2
  • minuano28's Avatar
    Mountain 665 679 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago
    Quote From Neoguli

    The problem with Lee is Zenith Blade, or any card that gives Overwhelm. THAT is why he was prevalent when he was, because he could OTK you without that much effort. I don't think it's good service to nerf Dragon's Rage and consequently his lvl 2 just because of Overwhelm, but that keyword makes OTK Lee decks that much more oppressive.

    I would still think it's better to just nerf Zenith Blade without touching Lee - that way, he's not as oppressive because of less incentive to run him with Targon. Perhaps giving Overwhelm only on Daybreak would be a solid middle-ground so that the Lee player has to make a more meaningful choice, and also can't play Lee into Blade on the same time without Rahvun.

    Zenith Blade isn't the problem. Lee Sin problem is his ability to grant himself a barrier every turn which coupled with the good already good protective tools in Ionia makes night impossible to remove without something like Minimorph.

    Riven is a champion that can OTK you with even less effort than Lee because she can give herself overwhelm and boost her own stats, yet nobody complains about Riven because she doesn't require you to run burst speed removal.

    3
  • FenrirWulf's Avatar
    940 297 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    I feel like the best way to nerf Lee Sin (at least the most efficient one) is by reducing his Power to 2 or even 1 therefore slowing down his gameplan but not effectively killing his combo entirely. The decks that has a bad matchup with him will still likely lose but Lee Sin won't be able to just cheese out wins as often.

    Though, I don't think this will ever happen seeing as the devs had once said that they had thought about it when he was 4 Mana but still decided to make him a 5 mana 3/5 and seeing as they never tried to nerf him ever since, I don't think it's ever happening.

    Take my words with a grain of salt. I'm unranked and only play casuals lmao.

    0
  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    Omg are we nerfing Lee Sin now too even with its abysmal winrate.

    Killing Poppy and Azir and literally every single champ focus strategy wasn't enough in the game?

    God we really are looking at Gwent all over again. 

    Champs are supposed to win games guys its literally the reason they are in the game.

    Case study: When burn aggro was the best deck in the game for what felt like 2 years running they could of nerfed temo said plant 4 mushrooms given him quick attack instead of elusive or whatever.

    But the devs said no that's stupid let's nerf the followers instead so we dont take the fun out of our game. When Nab was oppressive once again they nerfed the follower instead of gangplank because they knew Champs go in lots of decks followers go in 1 deck.

    Now they seem to have reverted that design philosophy and we are feeling its affects now. Less deck building, less originality, less hard muliganing to keep Champs always muliganing for combo or curve. Like it dumbs everything down to pure math, and honestly as a game of math Legends sucks you needs quests and high rolls and lucky draws if you want the game to remain relevant.

     

    -3
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar
    Soldier 505 670 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    We need highrolls in the game to keep it relevant? I don't see how this was ever necessary for a good game?

    Consistantcy was always a key feature of good decks which is why boat effects were introduced.

    There is nothing wrong with putting power budget into champions but with an overall increasing powerlevel and an increasing quality of spot removal playing around single champions is not supposed to be a key to success anymore.

    Champion designes like Zoe are the new way to go for champions: rather cheap units that generate value and which resemles a viable lvl 2 win condition which doesn't care if the unit dies right after level up.

    Lee Sin is a huge outlier in the championpool and kinda the last champion to be hyperresilient to removal. 

    There is no good reason why a 5 mana champion should be an outlier in this regard. I could see him doing what he does on 7+ mana since greater costs comes with greater tolerance for an acceptable powerlevel (looking at unnerfed Sion

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