Up To Date Winrates Post Patch

  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    Lee Sin is literally a 51% winrate champ focused win con and one of the only ones left in the game.

    Is he an outlier absolutely because every single champ that win on level up has been nerfed into the ground and I guess he's soon to join them.

    Yes card games need variance. They need variance in terms of the power between the cards aka legendaries are better than commons, and they need variance in terms of win conditions and play patterns.

    Like of we talk about MTG tournaments I remember top deck glory bringer because it's a cool card and it was very strong at the time.

    If this was Riot we're talking about they would nerf on a common scale so any rare or legendary or champion card that out performs a common needs to get slapped. 

    The only cost to pay is that champions have become redundant and useless foe the most part.

    Like is Pantheon the card that wins nah its white flame, does Sion win nope its Zaunite urchin. In fact you don't even see many level ups these days, why would you if you're just gonna lose anyway.

    Edit: you guys seem to forget but it used to be if a champion leveled you would just auto win.

    1. Tf carding things to oblivion

    2. Sejuani chain freezing at burst speed

    3. Fiora OTK

    4. Deep board flooding

    5. Azir extra attacks

    Now it's oh your champ leveled I don't care cuz you're dead, stop questing and get back to playing Runeterra at its most vanilla and brain dead version ever.

    Variance is fun folks, strong champions auto winning games is fun...otherwise it's just nail dragging value wars and its boring. Synergy is dead, deck building is dead, Champs are dead, strategy is dead.

    -2
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar
    Soldier 505 670 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    "Synergy is dead, deck building is dead, Champs are dead, strategy is dead." 

    Alright who told you that nonsens? Champions ARE still  meaningful. Champions ARE better than their follower cards by a lot. 

    Champions no longer go unanswered and if that is something that bothers you you better go complain about Hush Minimorph Vengeance and the likes of them which are the reasons why the role of champions changed.

    And a good example of deck building not being dead is the latest Hextech Handler swarm deck. I mean yeah it's kinda silly to play against and it's kinda broken but it's a quite unique build that hasn't been seen in the past (as far as I know)

    2
  • meisterz39's Avatar
    890 1186 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 weeks ago
    Quote From Nifty129

    Champs are supposed to win games guys its literally the reason they are in the game.

    Quote From Nifty192
    you guys seem to forget but it used to be if a champion leveled you would just auto win.

    I agree in general about the importance of Champions to the game, and I definitely think the following two things should always be true about LoR:

    1. Leveling up champions should matter. There have been lots of decks where the Level 1 version of a Champ was more than good enough to act as a win condition, and I think that spoils a key aspect of the game. Often that means the L1 version is too good.
    2. It should be extremely hard to build a deck that isn't made better by including some Champion(s)

    All that said, the idea that Champs should be auto-wins is clearly a bad design goal, for two major reasons.

    First, it emphasizes linear gameplay. You need look no further than Quests and Questlines in Hearthstone to see exactly how building your deck around a hyper-specific win condition makes the game overly linear. Admittedly, the Hearthstone examples are more egregious because you always start with your Quest in hand, but the basic premise is the same - a deck built around drawing and leveling a Champion for the sake of some auto-win is going to ultimately lead to linear games where each player is just trying to outdraw the opponent. It might have been okay in the earlier days of LoR, but as more and more card draw is introduced to the game, this becomes more and more streamlined and miserable to play against.

    Second, it fails to really suit the diverse roles of a given Champion. LoL has a wide array of Champion classes which describe how that champion functions at a high level. Braum is a great example of doing this right - he's a Tank/Warden champion, so he should be highly defensive and more useful as a support tool than a win condition. That's manifested through his high health/low attack statline and his challenger and regeneration keywords. He can win you the game over time by generating a ton of Mighty Poros, but he's more likely to just help you push damage to face by challenging your opponent's biggest blocker and forcing them to make bad trades.

    There are probably classes of Champions (e.g. Slayer/Assassin types) that should auto-win the game, but I don't really think that should be broadly true about Champions.

    2
  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    Honestly, if Champs aren't wincons they have no place in the game.

    They are chronically under-stated by design therefore if they arent questing wincons they essentially serve no purpose at all and come with a massive build around cost to boot.

    Like look at just streamers covering the game Swims gone, Mogwais gone they are too afraid to articulate why the game isn't fun anymore because  they'll get bogged down in discussion.

    I'm not afraid of that ineffectual Champs that can't win games are ruining Runeterra and so is over nerfing Champs in favor of over-stated followers.

    I should be scared when a 7 mana champ hits the board I shouldn't be scared when a 3 mana common names white flame hits the board I just shouldn't.

    It should be the card I play that delays things till I actually win with my champ it shouldn't be the main win con on its own. It's just too bland and vanilla. Also the main dynamic of Runeterra is protecting Champs with burst spells well you ain't gonna do that if they generally suck.

    -2
  • minuano28's Avatar
    Mountain 665 679 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    Quote From Author

    Now it's oh your champ leveled I don't care cuz you're dead, stop questing and get back to playing Runeterra at its most vanilla and brain dead version ever.

    Variance is fun folks, strong champions auto winning games is fun…otherwise it's just nail dragging value wars and its boring. Synergy is dead, deck building is dead, Champs are dead, strategy is dead.

    Champion auto wining on level up is exactly the kind of braindead play patter that you claim to be against, because that mean you just play a game of solitaire were the goal is turbo level your champions, but more importantly at no point of this game was that ever a thing.

    Sure they were many champions who could win the game if left unanswered but that is not the same as auto winning take pre-nerf Sion when he level up and attack he would usually win the game but they were many ways your opponent could deal with him including silence, stunt, frostbite, obliterate, recall. Sejuani could perma-freeze your board but that did not win you the game in itself you needed another cards like Gangplank or The Dreadway to finish off the opponent plus any hard removal could deal with her.

    That also goes for decks that built around a single champion like Anivia she did not auto win on level up since you needed to kill her multiple times then play The Harrowing to get a board full of Anivias and finish the game.

    Even Twisted Fate who had one the most powerful level up in the game ( If not the most powerful ) mostly served as a powerful control and value engine, you needed either Pack Your Bags ( for TF/GoHard) or elusive unit's ( for TF/Fizz ) to actually win the game.

    1
  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks ago

    Its not brain dead because you actually had to build a high synergy deck for your champion.

    Like if you lost to Malphite coming down on 7 I' sorry but youre the brain dead one.

    Its just also happens to simultaneously be a terrible card that will never ever happen.

    Same thing with Fiora, or Tf or any other card that made players go waaaah I had 8 cards in my 0 synergy greed list and lost anyway thats unfair!

    How can I be small brain me big big brain?

    Case study: I got to diamond easily one season with Renekton like literally considered one of the worst Champs. I did it by feeding exclusively off greed with  fast paced high synergy overwhelm list that included interesting card choices.

    Now try running Renekton go ahead just try value trading into the beefy game winning commons every deck is made up of now...I'll wait.

    Reality check: plunder midrange is at 51% guys like literally the top tier bilgewater deck that has been around for as long as I remember. Want to know why? Too champ focused commons aren't strong enough to win games even when they literally steal your opponents deck? Like come on the writings on the wall.

    -3
  • minuano28's Avatar
    Mountain 665 679 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 1 week, 6 days ago

    Quote From Author
    Its not brain dead because you actually had to build a high synergy deck for your champion.

    Any deck has to have synergy to be even mildly competitive, that's just like the ABC of deck building, it doesn't take genius to know that if you have Ekko in your deck then your gonna need a couple of predict cards, but when your deck is all about turbo leveling a champion then you usually repeat the same play patterns during every match and that is pretty braindead.

    A good example of that would be lurks, lurks needs high synergy to work but it's one the most braindead deck out there, play unit attack, rinse and repeat and hope you high roll Pyke of Rek'Sai in your predicts or top decks. 

    Same for Daybreak the deck need to be synergistic to work but it's pretty one dimensional you start with Solari Soldier turn 1, a Solari Shieldbearer (or another Soldier) turn 2, a Solari Priestess (or another Shieldbearer) on the turn 3, Leona on four, Rahvun, Daylight's Spear on five  

    As for plunder midrange, her a little bit of fact on the deck, it did existed since the Bilgewater expansion but back then it was a tier 3 at best, It didn't became top tier until patch 2.11.

    Reason that it fall down the tier list are both the buff to Vengeance and the nerf to Monster Harpoon, the former is a good counter to it's champion who are the deck main win condition, the latter was an essential tool for deck to stabilize during midgame since plunder is bad at trading because most of your unit's have less than 3 power.

    Still the deck is by no mean bad now.

    2
  • meisterz39's Avatar
    890 1186 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 week, 6 days ago

    Setting aside the fact that an aggregate 51% win rate across players of all skill levels is really not bad, I'm not seeing 51% for Plunder Midrange, I'm seeing 53.3%. Not the highest win rate, but perfectly respectable (again, particularly true when you consider that this is an aggregate across players whose skill levels vary). The "Archetypes" view on Mobalytics has a slightly lower win rate (52.9%), but still respectable and above 51%


    1
  • Nifty129's Avatar
    300 467 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 1 week, 6 days ago

    Oh wow I was 1 percent off the top of my head and thats an aggregate I probably saw a list specific score.

    Also saying you don't have to be a genius to build Ekko to only realize that rhe deck has like a 48% winrate.

    You would have to be a genius to pilot a list to masters with Ekko in it. Do you guys even think about the words you write prior to posting?

    Also 52% for a S tier champ focused strategy is awful like absolutely awful.

    Face it hard nerfing every champ that begins to perform slightly statistically better than your average common follower is a stupid design philosophy and it's killing the game slowly.

    Like was Poppy thaaaat bad as a 3/3 for 4 mana did she need to be a 2/3. Did Fiora really need to be a 3/2 for 3 mana like literally the same stats as the 2 mana dragon challenger.

    Did TF need to be impossible to level?

    What about Shen he's not even an op card?

    Like God I can do this all day all these once great cards went form unique and interesting to deleted just shot dead in the heart because a minority of bad players cried about it because they couldn't hard counter specific strategies.

    Ezreal might be the worst victim pretty sure he's been nerfed on like 5 seperate ocassions or decks where he featured prominently...burn is op guys we can't have non linear non hit face strategies we just can't...too small brain for the big brain folk out there.

    -1
  • sto650's Avatar
    Santa Braum 585 584 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 1 week, 6 days ago

    Let's look at the top performing decks right now. Dr. Lor's meta report.

    Your thesis, Nifty, is that champions don't matter enough currently. Here are the top 10 decks, by competitive winrate:

    1. Lulu Fizz - a deck where both champs are crucially important to winning

    2. Rally Elusives - champs are not very important

    3. Kennen Ahri Absolver - champs are extremely important AND they also need to level up (side note - this is universally considered the most powerful deck in the game presently)

    4. Spider burn - champs aren't that important, though Elise definitely helps a lot, and her level up is also relevant.

    5. Pantheon Taric - umm, yeah. This deck is all about the champs.

    6. Pirates - the champs aren't required, but they make it a ton easier to win if you draw and level them

    7. Draven Rumble - champs are important

    8. P&Z Noxus Burn - champs don't matter

    9. Scouts - champs are very relevant here

    10. Shyvana Pantheon - again, champs definitely matter.

    So, we have 3 out of the top 10 winrate decks currently where the champs don't matter much. That does not seem to support your thesis very well at all.

    2
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar
    Soldier 505 670 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 1 week, 6 days ago

    And if you take a look at what archetypes don't care about champions it all are aggro decks

    It should not surprise anyone that champions who by design aren't supposed to instantly level up won't be played for their level 2 in those lists.

    So it's not because champions being weak but decks aiming for faster endings that building around champions is maybe less a thing than in the early days of LoR

    1
  • minuano28's Avatar
    Mountain 665 679 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 1 week, 6 days ago

    Quote From Author

    Also saying you don't have to be a genius to build Ekko to only realize that rhe deck has like a 48% winrate.

    You would have to be a genius to pilot a list to masters with Ekko in it. Do you guys even think about the words you write prior to posting?

    I said that you don't need to be genius to know that a champion is gonna need some card that synergies with him if your gonna build a deck around him, at no point did I mention piloting said champion, don't act like we don't know what were are saying when your the one who can't understand a basic sentence.

    Quote From Author

    Face it hard nerfing every champ that begins to perform slightly statistically better than your average common follower is a stupid design philosophy and it's killing the game slowly.

    Like was Poppy thaaaat bad as a 3/3 for 4 mana did she need to be a 2/3. Did Fiora really need to be a 3/2 for 3 mana like literally the same stats as the 2 mana dragon challenger.

    Did TF need to be impossible to level?

    What about Shen he's not even an op card?

    What are you even talking about Shen was not nerfed.

    0
  • meisterz39's Avatar
    890 1186 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 week, 6 days ago
    Quote From Nifty129

    We have seen a massive number of decks drop to a barely playable winrate like 51%

    So I'll list only the decks that are currently 53% and higher, yes the list is kinda scuffed.

    ....

    Oh wow I was 1 percent off the top of my head and thats an aggregate I probably saw a list specific score.

    I don't mean to nitpick, but in this case I think it matters that you weren't 1% off, you were 2% off. That puts Plunder Midrange at the cutoff you set out in your original post for decks that remain relevant.

    It's certainly not the best aggregate win rate you'll see on Mobalytics, but in any healthy metagame you wouldn't expect to see aggregate win rates exceeding around 55% or so anyway, so it's perfectly respectable.

    2
  • Leave a Comment

    You must be signed in to leave a comment. Sign in here.