Can A Meta Be fun But Also Volatile?

  • Nifty129's Avatar 380 573 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    So streamers are starting to complain about the meta after the new set.

    While generally on board with straight forward powerhouse decks like Annie and Bard they are drawing the line at the 3 new tempo oriented Champs introduced with the new set.

    Now I understand the issue, if you're a streamer whose credibility depends on getting to masters you're gonna hate teching between control Annie, big follower Bard, and big Champs from the new set.

    Infact the meta in un-techable there is no best climbing option, and honestly I'm kinda fine with it. 

    We've talked in detail about how nobody wanted to nerf Annie and Bard so instead the devs just released a bunch of counters.

    So its going to feel like queuing into a whirlwind but if you don't care about being the most hard-core try hard that ever was you can actually have a lot of fun with the new cards and opponents you'll run into.

    Not everything needs a solution, not all problems need to be solved sometimes you just have to enjoy the journey the devs have laid out for you.

    1
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar Soldier 550 817 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    This sounds much like:

    "it's just a game why you mad" 

    And to a degree you are right it's just a game bad metagames are meaningless... unless you want to enjoy playing the game which is the actual point of the criticism.

    If Kai'Sa doesn't allow for meaningful interaction while being in the region with the best interactions means sth is very off with region balance. 

    I don't mind shurima as a region but it's balance seems not right lately.

    Shurima has a great board control because of vulnerable, but also it has the hardest to interact units "thanks" to spellshield and now they have 2 legit winconditions that both have spellshield themselves... That's too much for just 1 region to have.

    So what would I do: nerf Kai'Sa's spell from focus to slow and allow it only to resolve if a kaisa is in play

    nerf Rite of Negation to 5 or 6 mana

    nerf Merciless Hunter to 3/2

    0
  • Nifty129's Avatar 380 573 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    Ummm, don't think anyone is saying counterspell is too strong.

    And merciless hunter was already nerfed.

    No if anything it will be champ tweaks.

    But the problem is that Illoi, Bard, Annie are in a tug of war with the 3 new Champs.

    You nerf one the other 5 just get stronger

    Of course I'm a weirdo who can go 6/0 with Zillian Ekko so my fun is very much subjective compared to the meta crowd.

    1
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar Soldier 550 817 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    A of all:

    a card getting nerfed doesn't mean it shouldn't be further nerfed (most players proposed a nerf to a 3/2 statline back then and I doubt't the card would fall out of favour at a 3/2 statline) 

    B of all: if people complain about shurima it's most of the times because every champion is so effective as finisher having spellshield

    To counter a spellshield unit you have to put multiple spells on stack... what if there was a multispell counterspell for 4 mana to crush this sort of counterplay... oh wait

    Rite of Negation is imo clearly the issue why spelllshields in shurima are so powerful and it would make the region significantly easier to answer if it was weaker

    0
  • Nifty129's Avatar 380 573 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    Sounds like you're an Annie Tf main tired of getting countered. You know there's a lot of other decks out there that are easy to play.

    Illoi Bard for example just go big and then their tempo doesn't matter.

    -2
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar Soldier 550 817 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago

    This answer...

    I am neighter playing what's meta (because that's the most boring way to play a cardgame really) nor do I lack the skill to predict a Rite of Negation.

    The reality simply is that you CAN'T play around it most of the times as the opponent open attacks leaving only 1 chance to play removal. 

    And if you think removal shouldn't beat combo then you have a strange understanding of cardgames in my opinion

    1
  • minuano28's Avatar Mountain 695 819 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago
    Quote From Nifty129

    Sounds like you're an Annie Tf main tired of getting countered. You know there's a lot of other decks out there that are easy to play.

    Illoi Bard for example just go big and then their tempo doesn't matter.

    Triferian has never been a meta slave.

    The problem is by giving a region both spell shield and counterspell you make their win con near impossible to interact with for most decks, leaving you with only one option, play aggro and kill them before they can set up their win con, which sucks because I am pretty sure that most people on this forum aren't big fans of aggro.

    2
  • Nifty129's Avatar 380 573 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 4 days ago

    The spellshield is focus speed, so snap vengeance snap obliterate fish, snap will of Ionia all are solid counters to a deck that only has one wincon.

    Now if they wait till turn 6 to play her and back up with a deny, does that mean your deck has no proactive moves till turn 6 thats problematic regardless of opponent.

    Like you should be able to just take the deny use up their spell mana and vengeance a second time when you have the token/turn priority.

    Like I dont play the new Champs but I recognize the devs were saying to themselves hmmm Annie, Bard and Illoi are essentially curve beasts that are top of their archetypes. So let's print some tempo Champs to counter, and I think thats an okay solution when you have this much power creep.

    -3
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar Soldier 550 817 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 4 days ago

    I already have the feeling you are more into trolling the community than bringing up valid arguments, that or you have not half the level of game understanding you think you have.

    You say: if they play Kai'Sa 5 she doesn't get to spellshield until they get priority back

    that's true but not true at the same time:Kai'Sa can be removed instantly with a Vengeance ("fish" would require to be deep on turn 5 and COSTS 6 UNIT MANA and Will of Ionia is not answering Kai'Sa by any stretch of imagination) but she still get's Second Skin and instantly spellshield when you play the second copy of her since Second Skin from Kai'Sa 1 already gave Kai'Sa 2 the keywords.

    Also does kaisa most often land as a 6 health unit taking damaging removal out of the equation...

    So you have 2 removal spells in the game (the other is Minimorph) that can remove a turn 5 Kai'Sa... one of them can be denied and both fail once kaisa has spellshield.

    THERE IS no realistic counterplay to Kai'Sa and just because Illaoi Bard and Annie are boring champions it doesn't justify the existence of broken champions

    ALSO WRONG: Kai'Sa isn't the only wincondition of the deck Void Abomination is the second wincondition that eats 2 answer at least too 

     

    1
  • minuano28's Avatar Mountain 695 819 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    Quote From Nifty129

    The spellshield is focus speed, so snap vengeance snap obliterate fish, snap will of Ionia all are solid counters to a deck that only has one wincon.

    That's where you're wrong the deck has another win con in Void Abomination and good luck removing that when it hit the board with spell shield, barrier, scout and elusive.

    Quote From Nifty129
    Now if they wait till turn 6 to play her and back up with a deny, does that mean your deck has no proactive moves till turn 6 thats problematic regardless of opponent.

    Not trying to be mean spirited here but that's such a dumb thing to say. Your talking as if Kai'sa decks do nothing until they play their champion which just plain wrong, they run cards like Blinding Assault, Petricite Broadwing and Merciless Hunter to control the board in the early game they just need to bank 3 spell mana to have Kai'sa+rite of negation on turn 6

    1
  • Nifty129's Avatar 380 573 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    To be honest the only good Kaisa list is Sivir Kaisa

    https://runeterra.ar/stats

    has a strong 55 percent winrate

    Why well it has a proactive turn 4 play in a deck that does nothing till turn 5.

    No merciliess, broadwing, and bird don't count.

    Now yes the 8 drop is okay, it's generally worse version of the arsenal and can't really close out games, but it is in fact a card.

    -------------But what else do we see from the first part of the set-------------------

    Bard Illoi at 56%

    TF Annie, and Azir Irellia, Annie Jhin at 53% very respectable

    Like don't get me wrong if they want to make it so evolved needs 1 more keyword to activate go nuts, might drop the deck down an entire percent point

    But then that percent goes straight back into Annie still one of the top played champs, and Bard who goes in everything, and Illoi one of the strong on curve powerhouses.

    I don't think the new set destroyed the meta, anymore then Annie and Bard did before Kaisa.

    I do think she counters the meta, and that really pisses people off.

     

    0
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar Soldier 550 817 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days ago

    "I do think she counters the meta, and that really pisses people off"

    I explained very detailed what my issue with Kai'Sa is. If the deck draws Kai'Sa and get's evolve together there is nothing you as the opponent can do to stop it. 

    I would guess the wincondition isn't as easy to accomplish as one would think as you need to draw several units with different keywords but it's completely out of your opponent's agency weather your gameplan comes together or not and THAT is pretty toxic of a game experience if you ask me.

    The deck isn't unbeatable, the deck loses to fast aggressive aggro/agressive midrange decks but it's very unfun to play against still.

    PS: stop assuming that I am just pissed because my meta deck doesn't work... unless you assume Katarina Gwen Tybaulk reanimator to be a t1 meta deck ;D

    Edit: if the archetype ever should turn out to viable then I can at least say i've built it and play it without shame :)

    0
  • Leave a Comment

    You must be signed in to leave a comment. Sign in here.