Can riot please revert the Iceborn legacy changes?

  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar 50 18 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 1 week, 5 days ago

    Iceborn Legacy Card Image

    I know most of you guys havent even heard of this card before and proably none of you heard of this card since the changes made to it.

    What it does is that it gives a unit a buff permanently  and gives the same buff to every copy on the board or created in the future.

    In the latest patch riot decided that it was too rarely played and that doubling the effect (+2/+2 from +1/+1) for a higher cost would make the card more reasonable.

    But as a compensation they nerfed it's speed from Burst to slow.


    What was riot's problem with the card?

    -It was very niche and therefore rarely played

    - for them the card felt too unimpactful to justify playing it in a deck

     

    Why will it always be a niche card?

    The buff provided by the spell i quite small for it's cost (3 mana for +1+1 or 5 mana for 2+2+) so that if you affect only 1 unit by it its not good at all, affecting 2 units makes it okish but not good eighter and it starts getting really strong with 3 unit+ profiting from it's effect.

    That makes it a exclusive card for token/ clone decks because you never will consistantly pull 3 copies of a minion anywhere else. (outside of 10 copy drafted expansion decks)

    given that the majority of token decks use other ways to temporarily buff their tokens (because it is cheaper and higher tempo) and that you need to play around it, iceborn lagacy is easily skipped by most players

     

    So why is the change so bad in my opinion?

    Short: it didnt fix the niche situation of the card and made it even unattractive for decks using it

    Long: The spell is usually used on token/cloned minions (like spiders) that are all low health and therefore are easy to remove.

    Since the legacy is now a slow spell you run a huge risk that your spell gets cancelled by any type of creature removal or simply deny, destroying your deck's winconditon.

    That scenario is very likely and COMPLETELY kills the card's and the deck's viability and will lead to even lower playrates of them.

    It now is an card that is exclusively for expeditions and even there it will only be used to support decks that draft 10 copies of the same unit card (what should not be a thing in first place)

    So lets revert the Changes or make it burst speed again (for 6 mana)

     

    3
  • DoubleSummon's Avatar E.V.I.L. Dragon 625 1204 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 1 week, 5 days ago

    Don't worry.. I think they will realize it soon enough.. but It won't be changed until next patch.

    IDK what they were thinking when making this a slow spell.. but you can try to protect the tockens with iron elixir or mark of the isles..

    It's harder to play but much more rewarding.

    2
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar 50 18 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 1 week, 5 days ago
    Quote From DoubleSummon

    Don't worry.. I think they will realize it soon enough.. but It won't be changed until next patch.

    IDK what they were thinking when making this a slow spell.. but you can try to protect the tockens with iron elixir or mark of the isles..

    It's harder to play but much more rewarding.

    I actually play the elixir already but it makes the card so much more clunky to play+ it still wont work against ionian will, deny and vengance and only is capable of blocking 1 damage removal which your opponent can have 2 of

    0
  • Hellcopter's Avatar 75 36 Posts Joined 02/09/2020
    Posted 1 week, 5 days ago
    Quote From TheTriferianGeneral

    I know most of you guys havent even heard of this card before and proably none of you heard of this card since the changes made to it.

     

    i feel you, as i also have complained about how those changes to iceborn legacy would kill the card BEFORE the patch was even alive. 
    For more info, just give it a look in the patch thread.

    Its fine to keep the card as it is, all it needs is the burst speed back.

    Hearthstone: Me vs Firebat -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NCE81owjo

    1
  • SchitJustWorks's Avatar 50 17 Posts Joined 12/23/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    I personally think that this card change is perfect as I'm sure they'll release more type specific buff's in future sets that will be at burst speed. This card now being +2/+2 will make 'token' decks much more viable in the future. This also sort of HAD to happen due to Pack also getting a change. 

    0
  • BlueSpark's Avatar 125 144 Posts Joined 01/27/2020
    Posted 1 week, 1 day ago

    If reverting to Burst speed is out of the question, I could image a card text change like:

    Choose an ally. (When this card resolves,) Grant allies with the same name EVERYWHERE +2/+2.

    This way, the opponent could kill off the target in response, preventing it from receiving the buff, but it would still affect other copies of the chosen ally so as to not make Iceborn Legacy completely null and void.

    2
  • Almaniarra's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 590 1043 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 1 week, 1 day ago

    Well, You also might not know that Spiderling - They Who Endure deck with Iceborn Legacy back in time that Iceborn Legacy wasn't changed.

    That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.

    So, Crowd might not know about Iceborn Legacy's power level because, you know crowd only follows their leaders(streamers) and netdecks most of the time. If that deck did shined with some popular streamers, You could see some QQ threads around reddit or somewhere else that calls Iceborn Legacy should have been nerfed to the hell.

    0
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar 50 18 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 1 week, 1 day ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Well, You also might not know that Spiderling - They Who Endure deck with Iceborn Legacy back in time that Iceborn Legacy wasn't changed.

    That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.

    So, Crowd might not know about Iceborn Legacy's power level because, you know crowd only follows their leaders(streamers) and netdecks most of the time. If that deck did shined with some popular streamers, You could see some QQ threads around reddit or somewhere else that calls Iceborn Legacy should have been nerfed to the hell.

    I know about the deck but i think that iceborn legacy should not be as vulnerable to removal as it is now. If you don't run cheap protection spell and get it into your hand to respond,  it always will be a big risk to cast the legacy.

    The cardchange misses it's purpose to let the card find it's way into new decks.

    All it does is to make the decks that use this card easier to counter what will cause the opposite 

    I DONT CARE ABOUT STREAMERS OPPINIONS OR THEIR DECKS I CAN THINK, PLAY BUILD DECKS AND EVALUATE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS ON MY OWN AND I DO NOT TOLERATE IF ANYBODY ASSUMES THAT I JUST COPYPASTE SOME STREAMERS OPPINION AS MINE

    PS: that last Statement just had to be to stress my standpoint

    -2
  • meisterz39's Avatar Anduin 325 355 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 week ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Well, You also might not know that Spiderling - They Who Endure deck with Iceborn Legacy back in time that Iceborn Legacy wasn't changed.

    That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.

    I think this is exactly right. It may have been rare, but it's clearly pretty popular right now - it's considered an S Tier meta deck on Mobalytics. It looks like Riot realized this deck would be a problem after the other nerfs they made, and changed Iceborn Legacy so that it would really fit better into the clone decks they want it to go into, and not the Spiders deck it would be going into today. This represents the broader philosophy Riot has espoused for this game - each card should be playable, and should fit into at least one particular deck, even if that deck isn't very powerful.

    0
  • Almaniarra's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 590 1043 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 1 week ago
    Quote From meisterz39
    Show Spoiler
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Well, You also might not know that Spiderling - They Who Endure deck with Iceborn Legacy back in time that Iceborn Legacy wasn't changed.

    That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.

    I think this is exactly right. It may have been rare, but it's clearly pretty popular right now - it's considered an S Tier meta deck on Mobalytics. It looks like Riot realized this deck would be a problem after the other nerfs they made, and changed Iceborn Legacy so that it would really fit better into the clone decks they want it to go into, and not the Spiders deck it would be going into today. This represents the broader philosophy Riot has espoused for this game - each card should be playable, and should fit into at least one particular deck, even if that deck isn't very powerful.

    I suspect also Brood Awakening forced them to nerf Iceborn Legacy too or should i say a rework instead of nerf ? because, after you use Brood Awakening, if there is not bunch of removals/pings or an AOE spell in your opponent's hand, it is easier to use Iceborn Legacy on a spiderling.

    That wasn't the case before because the list i have mentioned before did not use Brood Awakening just because old Iceborn Legacy was just enough to carry you to mid-late game. After Brood Awakening buff, probably Iceborn Legacy is way too powerful for what it does.

    Quote From TheTriferianGeneral
    I DONT CARE ABOUT STREAMERS OPPINIONS OR THEIR DECKS I CAN THINK, PLAY BUILD DECKS AND EVALUATE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS ON MY OWN AND I DO NOT TOLERATE IF ANYBODY ASSUMES THAT I JUST COPYPASTE SOME STREAMERS OPPINION AS MINE

    PS: that last Statement just had to be to stress my standpoint
     

    I did not say that you are part of the crowd. People in forums, people who shares their thoughts on forums are already mostly players who plays the games with their own way. We forum people tend to discover the game with our own style and share our experiences in forums. That's why we are part of the forum and opening threads about the game and our ideas/experiences.

    I know you don't copypaste some streamer's opinions as yours. That's why i started as "you might not know " as well. So don't be mad. I said that crowd example just because %60-70 of playerbase play games, especially card games just like that. You might not be the part of the crowd and have a unique way to play. I'm not judging anyone here. I'm just speaking in general.

    The fact that most of the crowd (%70) exists and plays as i describe above doesn't change the truth that there is also the %30 exception part which is always changes the experiments results in sciences and logic. Statistics can't do anything but saying "There are always exceptions" fact at the end. This is why statistics mostly sucks because it generalize the fact as that is the only truth. :) it even puts us the same %30 as "unique guys" even if we all are completely different. :)

    you can see that for medicines for example. "That medicine is effective %70 of patients." but the truth is you might be on the %30 part and that medicine might not be effective on you but statistics don't interest in that and says that the medicine is effective enough.  :)

    1
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar 50 18 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 1 week ago
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From meisterz39
    Show Spoiler
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Well, You also might not know that Spiderling - They Who Endure deck with Iceborn Legacy back in time that Iceborn Legacy wasn't changed.

    That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.

    I think this is exactly right. It may have been rare, but it's clearly pretty popular right now - it's considered an S Tier meta deck on Mobalytics. It looks like Riot realized this deck would be a problem after the other nerfs they made, and changed Iceborn Legacy so that it would really fit better into the clone decks they want it to go into, and not the Spiders deck it would be going into today. This represents the broader philosophy Riot has espoused for this game - each card should be playable, and should fit into at least one particular deck, even if that deck isn't very powerful.

    I suspect also Brood Awakening forced them to nerf Iceborn Legacy too or should i say a rework instead of nerf ? because, after you use Brood Awakening, if there is not bunch of removals/pings or an AOE spell in your opponent's hand, it is easier to use Iceborn Legacy on a spiderling.

    That wasn't the case before because the list i have mentioned before did not use Brood Awakening just because old Iceborn Legacy was just enough to carry you to mid-late game. After Brood Awakening buff, probably Iceborn Legacy is way too powerful for what it does.

    Quote From TheTriferianGeneral
    I DONT CARE ABOUT STREAMERS OPPINIONS OR THEIR DECKS I CAN THINK, PLAY BUILD DECKS AND EVALUATE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS ON MY OWN AND I DO NOT TOLERATE IF ANYBODY ASSUMES THAT I JUST COPYPASTE SOME STREAMERS OPPINION AS MINE

    PS: that last Statement just had to be to stress my standpoint
     

    I did not say that you are part of the crowd. People in forums, people who shares their thoughts on forums are already mostly players who plays the games with their own way. We forum people tend to discover the game with our own style and share our experiences in forums. That's why we are part of the forum and opening threads about the game and our ideas/experiences.

    I know you don't copypaste some streamer's opinions as yours. That's why i started as "you might not know " as well. So don't be mad. I said that crowd example just because %60-70 of playerbase play games, especially card games just like that. You might not be the part of the crowd and have a unique way to play. I'm not judging anyone here. I'm just speaking in general.

    The fact that most of the crowd (%70) exists and plays as i describe above doesn't change the truth that there is also the %30 exception part which is always changes the experiments results in sciences and logic. Statistics can't do anything but saying "There are always exceptions" fact at the end. This is why statistics mostly sucks because it generalize the fact as that is the only truth. :) it even puts us the same %30 as "unique guys" even if we all are completely different. :)

    you can see that for medicines for example. "That medicine is effective %70 of patients." but the truth is you might be on the %30 part and that medicine might not be effective on you but statistics don't interest in that and says that the medicine is effective enough.  :)

    I am still pissed that the change ruined my heimerdinger deck that was actually very good in to every matchup and literally saw 0 play by anyone but me.

    Heimerdinger turrets would be a good target for the legacy but since they are 1 health they just don't really work with it anymore.

     Also who said that they have to buff brood awakening when spiders were a core part of the meta already? Its so annoying to see riot streamlining the game (like they did with flash of briliance + lux) just to make it easier for them to balance that streamlined game.

    It discourages to go offroad with your deckbuilding and just is what makes me quit cardgames when it reaches too huge levels.

    0
  • GerritDeMan's Avatar 200 142 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 week ago
    Quote From TheTriferianGeneral
     

    I am still pissed that the change ruined my heimerdinger deck that was actually very good in to every matchup and literally saw 0 play by anyone but me.

    Heimerdinger turrets would be a good target for the legacy but since they are 1 health they just don't really work with it anymore.

     Also who said that they have to buff brood awakening when spiders were a core part of the meta already? Its so annoying to see riot streamlining the game (like they did with flash of briliance + lux) just to make it easier for them to balance that streamlined game.

    It discourages to go offroad with your deckbuilding and just is what makes me quit cardgames when it reaches too huge levels.

    Just wanted to say that I love your idea for a Heimerdinger turret + Iceborn Legacy deck. Sucks that it doesn't work well anymore. :(

    0
  • Almaniarra's Avatar Draconically Dedicated 590 1043 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 1 week ago
    Quote From TheTriferianGeneral
    Show Spoiler
    Quote From Almaniarra
    Quote From meisterz39
    Show Spoiler
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Well, You also might not know that Spiderling - They Who Endure deck with Iceborn Legacy back in time that Iceborn Legacy wasn't changed.

    That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.

    I think this is exactly right. It may have been rare, but it's clearly pretty popular right now - it's considered an S Tier meta deck on Mobalytics. It looks like Riot realized this deck would be a problem after the other nerfs they made, and changed Iceborn Legacy so that it would really fit better into the clone decks they want it to go into, and not the Spiders deck it would be going into today. This represents the broader philosophy Riot has espoused for this game - each card should be playable, and should fit into at least one particular deck, even if that deck isn't very powerful.

    I suspect also Brood Awakening forced them to nerf Iceborn Legacy too or should i say a rework instead of nerf ? because, after you use Brood Awakening, if there is not bunch of removals/pings or an AOE spell in your opponent's hand, it is easier to use Iceborn Legacy on a spiderling.

    That wasn't the case before because the list i have mentioned before did not use Brood Awakening just because old Iceborn Legacy was just enough to carry you to mid-late game. After Brood Awakening buff, probably Iceborn Legacy is way too powerful for what it does.

    Quote From TheTriferianGeneral
    I DONT CARE ABOUT STREAMERS OPPINIONS OR THEIR DECKS I CAN THINK, PLAY BUILD DECKS AND EVALUATE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS ON MY OWN AND I DO NOT TOLERATE IF ANYBODY ASSUMES THAT I JUST COPYPASTE SOME STREAMERS OPPINION AS MINE

    PS: that last Statement just had to be to stress my standpoint
     

    I did not say that you are part of the crowd. People in forums, people who shares their thoughts on forums are already mostly players who plays the games with their own way. We forum people tend to discover the game with our own style and share our experiences in forums. That's why we are part of the forum and opening threads about the game and our ideas/experiences.

    I know you don't copypaste some streamer's opinions as yours. That's why i started as "you might not know " as well. So don't be mad. I said that crowd example just because %60-70 of playerbase play games, especially card games just like that. You might not be the part of the crowd and have a unique way to play. I'm not judging anyone here. I'm just speaking in general.

    The fact that most of the crowd (%70) exists and plays as i describe above doesn't change the truth that there is also the %30 exception part which is always changes the experiments results in sciences and logic. Statistics can't do anything but saying "There are always exceptions" fact at the end. This is why statistics mostly sucks because it generalize the fact as that is the only truth. :) it even puts us the same %30 as "unique guys" even if we all are completely different. :)

    you can see that for medicines for example. "That medicine is effective %70 of patients." but the truth is you might be on the %30 part and that medicine might not be effective on you but statistics don't interest in that and says that the medicine is effective enough.  :)

     


    I am still pissed that the change ruined my heimerdinger deck that was actually very good in to every matchup and literally saw 0 play by anyone but me.

    Heimerdinger turrets would be a good target for the legacy but since they are 1 health they just don't really work with it anymore.

     Also who said that they have to buff brood awakening when spiders were a core part of the meta already? Its so annoying to see riot streamlining the game (like they did with flash of briliance + lux) just to make it easier for them to balance that streamlined game.

    It discourages to go offroad with your deckbuilding and just is what makes me quit cardgames when it reaches too huge levels.

    Brood Awakening buff was about the Riot's gameplay philosophy, if you ask me because even the spiders are the most played part of the metaplay, Brood Awakening has no room in any of the Spider deck and Riot wants cards to be a part at least 1 deck. In my opinion, that's why Brood Awakening saw a buff.

    I am sorry for your Heimerdinger/Iceborn Legacy deck. I was like you when Assembly Bot has been changed and never been fan of Reworks at the end of the day. While I was playing LoL for example, I was playing Karma and she was one of my favorite champions. Then they reworked her just because she is not so popular and noone picks her. Ok, Her playrates rose but in the end, I am still missing to play with old Karma but I can't because they changed it and never revert it back. Reworks are just bad for this kind of situations. I feel you but well, there is always some chances that they might revert it back for card games. They did it for Mageseeker Investigator at last patch. keep your hopes ! :)

    1
  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar 50 18 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 2 days, 15 hours ago

    Have you guys noticed how swim tried to make Iceborn Legacy work in the spider endure list and did not manage to pull it of once in multiple hours of playing? 

    I think that pretty much proves how useless that card is right now...

    0
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