Ruination is broken and can't be fixed.

  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    If you're just here to jump on me with "git gud" or other things, stuff it.

    For the rest of you, welcome! Here's why the title.

     


    Runeterra, card economy is supremely valuable. Any card that gives you the card advantage is supremely valuable. Ruination is that on steroids.

    It's never a bad draw. Ever. Either you're already winning on the battlefield in which case you're good. If you're not, it's a complete wipe of the board. And unless the opponent has been playing slow (giving just more opportunity for the ruination deck to draw said card) you'll kill pretty much everything they have.

    The two exceptions are if the opponent has managed to pummel your nexus down and is playing a Piltover direct damage deck it stops an opponent dead. Since there aren't spell decks in Runeterra. (Yes, there are ones that focus more on spells but they're all still also creature focused.) Or if they have Deny the (literally) one card in the entire game that counters it. 

    It only costs 9. That's by sixth turn. And unless the opponent is playing a facedeck you'll get there.

    Also, it's shadow isles, easy to put together a deck that is literally meant to throw away it's own units (or automatically get them back on death.)

     

    I'm all for balancing things, I just can't think of any way to make Ruination not stupidly overpowered. Making it cost 13 would help, but it'd still be a soft "I win" button.

    -8
  • Avalon's Avatar Content Admin Salty Dog 1490 1961 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    "Git gud" or other things.

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
    • Hearthstone Battletag: beppe946#2807 (EU)
    6
  • meisterz39's Avatar 925 1200 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    To preface all of this, I think you're probably wrong about The Ruination being OP - in fact, I think it's being punished by a separate and more insidious issue with the game's balance. But let's break this down a little bit.

    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    Runeterra, card economy is supremely valuable. Any card that gives you the card advantage is supremely valuable. Ruination is that on steroids.

    The part about card economy is entirely true. Card draw is limited, there's no "enemy discard" tools, and there's not a ton of AoE. On top of that, the powerful AoE in the game is fairly slow (e.g. Shadow Flare, Trueshot Barrage, Judgment, and The Ruination - all are expensive, and all of which have a power level that scales with cost.)

    The Ruination gives you a lot of card advantage, but it's very slow, so I'm not sure "on steroids" is quite right.

    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    It's never a bad draw. Ever. Either you're already winning on the battlefield in which case you're good. If you're not, it's a complete wipe of the board. And unless the opponent has been playing slow (giving just more opportunity for the ruination deck to draw said card) you'll kill pretty much everything they have.

    This is plainly wrong, and frankly it's kind of obviously wrong based on your point about card advantage.

    Control decks rely on card advantage and inevitability, so in a game where it's harder to get card advantage, aggro is "naturally stronger." That doesn't mean there cannot be any effective control decks, or bad aggro decks, it just means it's easier than usual to make optimal aggro decks, and harder than usual to make optimal control decks.

    So, because the game favors board-centric and aggro strategies, there will always be match-ups and turns where drawing a 9-drop spell is terrible for you. Your "two exceptions" basically demonstrate that aggro issue, but interestingly your first argument for it never being bad is exactly when it would bad in a control mirror. If you draw a big, expensive board wipe in a game where the board is under control, that's bad because that's exactly when you want to be drawing your big threats.

    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    It only costs 9. That's by sixth turn. And unless the opponent is playing a facedeck you'll get there.

    I'm all for balancing things, I just can't think of any way to make Ruination not stupidly overpowered. Making it cost 13 would help, but it'd still be a soft "I win" button.

    Notably I'm skipping the middle sentence here (mostly because I think the theme of killing your own units in Shadow Isles is a good one, and that it's okay for The Ruination to play well with that in general).

    I think this actually highlights the real balance problem, and it's a problem I've been thinking about for a little while with Runeterra. I think the Spell Mana bank is actually a bad thing for balance.

    The Spell Mana bank was one of the things that originally drew me to Runeterra because it seemed like a really cool concept to enable players to think several turns ahead, and to enable "unusually powerful" cards like Warmother's Call. Part of having that bank, though, is a requirement that any spell that costs less than 10 mana must be balanced against being played three turns early or essentially "for free." I think there are a lot of CCGs where a 6 mana symmetric board wipe is actually considered very fair. Because of the Spell Mana bank, though, you could never make The Ruination cost 6 - it would be able to come down way too early. So, The Ruination (and really all of the AoE and big card draw tools) incurs a tax on its cost to make up for that mechanic.

    But as anyone who has played Hearthstone for long enough can tell you, mana cheating a card out is one of the biggest threats to balance, and Spell Mana basically represents a constant threat of mana cheating. And decks playing spells right on the sweet spot for the mana bank (2 or 3 drop spells), making your cards essentially free is a much more powerful and problematic thing than making your AoE come down a little early. In fact, this cheap spell balance problem is exactly why Deny had to be nerfed from 3 to 4 mana - to get it out of this "free spell" breakpoint in the Spell Mana mechanic.

    Some might say that you're not really cheating the mana - you're paying for it by making inefficient plays on previous turns. But in the early turns your opponent doesn't have enough mana to punish you that much for your inefficiency, and in the late turns the issue is moot because you've got enough mana to play everything you want to.

    A good example of this false payment was the Solitary Monk + Stand Alone combo - dropping a 7/6 elusive unit on turn 3 is a major threat, and the 1/1 or 2/2 that your opponent has been threatening you with hasn't pressured you enough to make that combo bad. (I know the meta has kind of moved past this combo and the Lux/Karma decks, but it makes for a good example of what I'm talking about.)

    7
  • Almaniarra's Avatar Devoted Outlander 880 1346 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    Just here to see your reasoning after seeing the title but well, your reasoning is poorer than your statement.

    Good luck on your card game life. With this consideration skills, it won't take much time for you to stop playing.

    -1
  • DoubleSummon's Avatar Ancestral Recall 1580 2271 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    Just save cards in your hand don't play any card that has the mana cost equal to the mana you have that turn.

    if you are against a deck that you know runs the card, play cards only after ruination, or don't play them when they have enough mana..

    If they have 6/3(spell mana) mana open attack.. or just pass. you don't have to play that darius or hecarim.

    5
  • karacho's Avatar 50 2 Posts Joined 04/05/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From DoubleSummon

    Just save cards in your hand don't play any card that has the mana cost equal to the mana you have that turn.

    if you are against a deck that you know runs the card, play cards only after ruination, or don't play them when they have enough mana..

    If they have 6/3(spell mana) mana open attack.. or just pass. you don't have to play that darius or hecarim.

    Thats an important hint for new player!

    And if you ever have the chance to [Hearthstone Card (deny) Not Found] The Ruination they have normaly lost.

    0
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From Avalon

    "Git gud" or other things.

    Your opinion is noted, and discareded

    0
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From meisterz39

    To preface all of this, I think you're probably wrong about The Ruination being OP - in fact, I think it's being punished by a separate and more insidious issue with the game's balance. But let's break this down a little bit.

     

    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    Runeterra, card economy is supremely valuable. Any card that gives you the card advantage is supremely valuable. Ruination is that on steroids.

     

    The part about card economy is entirely true. Card draw is limited, there's no "enemy discard" tools, and there's not a ton of AoE. On top of that, the powerful AoE in the game is fairly slow (e.g. Shadow Flare, Trueshot Barrage, Judgment, and The Ruination - all are expensive, and all of which have a power level that scales with cost.)

    The Ruination gives you a lot of card advantage, but it's very slow, so I'm not sure "on steroids" is quite right.

     

    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    It's never a bad draw. Ever. Either you're already winning on the battlefield in which case you're good. If you're not, it's a complete wipe of the board. And unless the opponent has been playing slow (giving just more opportunity for the ruination deck to draw said card) you'll kill pretty much everything they have.

     

    This is plainly wrong, and frankly it's kind of obviously wrong based on your point about card advantage.

    Control decks rely on card advantage and inevitability, so in a game where it's harder to get card advantage, aggro is "naturally stronger." That doesn't mean there cannot be any effective control decks, or bad aggro decks, it just means it's easier than usual to make optimal aggro decks, and harder than usual to make optimal control decks.

    So, because the game favors board-centric and aggro strategies, there will always be match-ups and turns where drawing a 9-drop spell is terrible for you. Your "two exceptions" basically demonstrate that aggro issue, but interestingly your first argument for it never being bad is exactly when it would bad in a control mirror. If you draw a big, expensive board wipe in a game where the board is under control, that's bad because that's exactly when you want to be drawing your big threats.

     

    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    It only costs 9. That's by sixth turn. And unless the opponent is playing a facedeck you'll get there.

     

    I'm all for balancing things, I just can't think of any way to make Ruination not stupidly overpowered. Making it cost 13 would help, but it'd still be a soft "I win" button.

     

    Notably I'm skipping the middle sentence here (mostly because I think the theme of killing your own units in Shadow Isles is a good one, and that it's okay for The Ruination to play well with that in general).

    I think this actually highlights the real balance problem, and it's a problem I've been thinking about for a little while with Runeterra. I think the Spell Mana bank is actually a bad thing for balance.

    The Spell Mana bank was one of the things that originally drew me to Runeterra because it seemed like a really cool concept to enable players to think several turns ahead, and to enable "unusually powerful" cards like Warmother's Call. Part of having that bank, though, is a requirement that any spell that costs less than 10 mana must be balanced against being played three turns early or essentially "for free." I think there are a lot of CCGs where a 6 mana symmetric board wipe is actually considered very fair. Because of the Spell Mana bank, though, you could never make The Ruination cost 6 - it would be able to come down way too early. So, The Ruination (and really all of the AoE and big card draw tools) incurs a tax on its cost to make up for that mechanic.

    But as anyone who has played Hearthstone for long enough can tell you, mana cheating a card out is one of the biggest threats to balance, and Spell Mana basically represents a constant threat of mana cheating. And decks playing spells right on the sweet spot for the mana bank (2 or 3 drop spells), making your cards essentially free is a much more powerful and problematic thing than making your AoE come down a little early. In fact, this cheap spell balance problem is exactly why Deny had to be nerfed from 3 to 4 mana - to get it out of this "free spell" breakpoint in the Spell Mana mechanic.

    Some might say that you're not really cheating the mana - you're paying for it by making inefficient plays on previous turns. But in the early turns your opponent doesn't have enough mana to punish you that much for your inefficiency, and in the late turns the issue is moot because you've got enough mana to play everything you want to.

    A good example of this false payment was the Solitary Monk + Stand Alone combo - dropping a 7/6 elusive unit on turn 3 is a major threat, and the 1/1 or 2/2 that your opponent has been threatening you with hasn't pressured you enough to make that combo bad. (I know the meta has kind of moved past this combo and the Lux/Karma decks, but it makes for a good example of what I'm talking about.)

    I'd disagree with the disagreement, but that's for the obvious reason that it was my original point :D

    I very much agree with the spell pool point. I like the idea, but yeah, balancing it is... Questionable. 

    And thank you for not being an ass.

    2
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Just here to see your reasoning after seeing the title but well, your reasoning is poorer than your statement.

    Good luck on your card game life. With this consideration skills, it won't take much time for you to stop playing.

    I'm enjoying the game, thank you very much. Though I know you were actually being a sarcastic jerk. Cheers

    -1
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From DoubleSummon

    Just save cards in your hand don't play any card that has the mana cost equal to the mana you have that turn.

    if you are against a deck that you know runs the card, play cards only after ruination, or don't play them when they have enough mana..

    If they have 6/3(spell mana) mana open attack.. or just pass. you don't have to play that darius or hecarim.

    Well, that was part of my point, their decks are designed to be strong end game so you're kind of up a creek without a paddle.

    -1
  • Avalon's Avatar Content Admin Salty Dog 1490 1961 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    Quote From Avalon

    "Git gud" or other things.

    Your opinion is noted, and discareded

    A good laugh here and there might help you to be relaxed even when things are not perfect ;)

    Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.

    • You can follow me on Twitter - I am always active and you can tag me to highlight your (or someone else's) 12 wins Duels run or really anything Hearthstone-related!
    • Hearthstone Battletag: beppe946#2807 (EU)
    2
  • DoubleSummon's Avatar Ancestral Recall 1580 2271 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    Quote From DoubleSummon

    Just save cards in your hand don't play any card that has the mana cost equal to the mana you have that turn.

    if you are against a deck that you know runs the card, play cards only after ruination, or don't play them when they have enough mana..

    If they have 6/3(spell mana) mana open attack.. or just pass. you don't have to play that darius or hecarim.

    Well, that was part of my point, their decks are designed to be strong end game so you're kind of up a creek without a paddle.

    Your goal is to not make ruination too good of a play, and have reload in your hand, make them float mana, or start playing stuff when their mana is not 9.. they can't float 9 mana forever..

    Apply pressure, but not enough so you won't be able to reload.

    Either your deck building is flawed, your game play or your conception of board clears..

    You know what's the best way to learn to counter a card? just play it! learn how it does.. it's not HS you can just craft a "ruination deck" and play it, if it's so broken get to masters.

    4
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    Quote From Avalon

    "Git gud" or other things.

    Your opinion is noted, and discareded

    A good laugh here and there might help you to be relaxed even when things are not perfect ;)

    Like I said on another, I'm still enjoying the game. I can enjoy a game that's not perfectly balanced. I mean Hell, I played vanilla WoW.

    -1
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From DoubleSummon
    Quote From NerdExtrodinare
    Quote From DoubleSummon

    Just save cards in your hand don't play any card that has the mana cost equal to the mana you have that turn.

    if you are against a deck that you know runs the card, play cards only after ruination, or don't play them when they have enough mana..

    If they have 6/3(spell mana) mana open attack.. or just pass. you don't have to play that darius or hecarim.

    Well, that was part of my point, their decks are designed to be strong end game so you're kind of up a creek without a paddle.

    Your goal is to not make ruination too good of a play, and have reload in your hand, make them float mana, or start playing stuff when their mana is not 9.. they can't float 9 mana forever..

    Apply pressure, but not enough so you won't be able to reload.

    Either your deck building is flawed, your game play or your conception of board clears..

    You know what's the best way to learn to counter a card? just play it! learn how it does.. it's not HS you can just craft a "ruination deck" and play it, if it's so broken get to masters.

    But they can do the exact same thing but still do the same minus one card so I don't see how your counterpoint is a counterpoint. (Likely with more because glimpse is a pretty good card and it's in most Isle's decks. (Just so we're alllllll clear I'm in no way claiming glimpse is overpowered, but it is good.))

    -1
  • Hellcopter's Avatar 260 306 Posts Joined 02/09/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    Title: "Ruination is broken and can't be fixed"
    Guess you have all figured out then, not sure what this topic is supposed to accomplish?

    My solution is quite simple: Build a deck with Ruination, go ranked and see how far you can go. 

    Hearthstone: Me vs Firebat -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NCE81owjo

    1
  • Sykomyke's Avatar Grand Crusader 780 984 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Just here to see your reasoning after seeing the title but well, your reasoning is poorer than your statement.

    Good luck on your card game life. With this consideration skills, it won't take much time for you to stop playing.

    He (OP) may be wrong, and he is in this instance about a lot of things, but comments like these are COMPLETELY unnecessary.  These forums do not need vitriolic and hostile comments to people, even players who make asinine assumptions about card balance.

    <Your Ad Here>

    2
  • Hellcopter's Avatar 260 306 Posts Joined 02/09/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    Now that i've read the entire thread, DoubleSummon and meisterz39 advices are solid.


    The spell mana mechanic is not perfect but i believe is as balanced as it gets.

    VengeanceBADCARDNAME is a great example.
    7 mana to kill a single unit is overpriced. I can't think in a single target that Vengeance is casted upon that will end in a favorable trade. Ruination cost just 2 more and its a full board clear. On paper, this card is just terrible. But Vengeance does see competitve play. Why?

    For 2 reasons:
     1- It has Fast spell speed:
          Since its only possible to attack every other turn, removing a single big unit from combat is very valuable.
          But vengeance trully shines when the opponent cast buff/spells on his minions (often burst spells).
          At that point, Vengeance can become a 2-1 or even a 3-1 trade.
     2- Mana pool mechanic:
          Even having the fast spell speed, holding on 7 mana WITHOUT having acess to the extra pool, would be too easy to play around. The card would also be much less consistent as some targets like Darius/Hecarin can end the game even before Vengeance could hit the board. Without this mechanic, Vengeance will need to cost less to see play, meaning it would be much harder to balance. It either would cost too much and never see play, or cost to little and always see play.
          
    In short, this mechanic gives BAD spell cards a shot to see play in the right circunstances.
    Without the mana pool mechanic, this game would lose a lot of complex depth and become more or less like a Hearthstone 2.0

    There is so much more to talk about the Spell mechanic but i think i said enough for now, this isn't the righ place anyway. 

    Hearthstone: Me vs Firebat -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NCE81owjo

    4
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From Sykomyke
    Quote From Almaniarra

    Just here to see your reasoning after seeing the title but well, your reasoning is poorer than your statement.

    Good luck on your card game life. With this consideration skills, it won't take much time for you to stop playing.

    He (OP) may be wrong, and he is in this instance about a lot of things, but comments like these are COMPLETELY unnecessary.  These forums do not need vitriolic and hostile comments to people, even players who make asinine assumptions about card balance.

    It's funny you pretend to be against vitriolic and hostile comments, then end with "asinine assumptions about card balance." which is more of the same.

    0
  • NerdExtrodinare's Avatar 80 13 Posts Joined 04/04/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From Hellcopter

    Now that i've read the entire thread, DoubleSummon and meisterz39 advices are solid.


    The spell mana mechanic is not perfect but i believe is as balanced as it gets.

    Vengeance is a great example.
    7 mana to kill a single unit is overpriced. I can't think in a single target that Vengeance is casted upon that will end in a favorable trade. Ruination cost just 2 more and its a full board clear. On paper, this card is just terrible. But Vengeance does see competitve play. Why?

    For 2 reasons:
     1- It has Fast spell speed:
          Since its only possible to attack every other turn, removing a single big unit from combat is very valuable.
          But vengeance trully shines when the opponent cast buff/spells on his minions (often burst spells).
          At that point, Vengeance can become a 2-1 or even a 3-1 trade.
     2- Mana pool mechanic:
          Even having the fast spell speed, holding on 7 mana WITHOUT having acess to the extra pool, would be too easy to play around. The card would also be much less consistent as some targets like Darius/Hecarin can end the game even before Vengeance could hit the board. Without this mechanic, Vengeance will need to cost less to see play, meaning it would be much harder to balance. It either would cost too much and never see play, or cost to little and always see play.
          
    In short, this mechanic gives BAD spell cards a shot to see play in the right circunstances.
    Without the mana pool mechanic, this game would lose a lot of complex depth and become more or less like a Hearthstone 2.0

    There is so much more to talk about the Spell mechanic but i think i said enough for now, this isn't the righ place anyway. 

    I'd still disagree (for the obvious reasons that I disagree. :D) But I'd also like to take the moment to thank you for not being an ass.

    0
  • Voidium's Avatar 95 19 Posts Joined 04/08/2020
    Posted 2 years, 5 months ago

    Maybe we will see some "answers" to The Ruination in the new set of 120+ cards later this month...or see a "the ruination 2.0" card to talk about ^_^.

    Just some wild ideas of cards:

    -Reveal enemy X or Y card or whole hand.

    -Trade cards from hand.

    -Discard enemy X or Y card or whole hand. (similar to She Who Wanders)

    -Make enemy draw more then what he can use (too many high cost cards) and "burning" the 10+ excess (accelerating his out of card loss condition, and let's throw some mushrooms in the mix for free burn damage...)

    0
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