Dragon Deck - A Symbol of Developers' Stupidity

  • legolas5749's Avatar 50 2 Posts Joined 09/07/2020
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    I had been anticipating some new cards launching but when they finally launched the Targon updates, I was completely disappointed.  I was totally not understand of why the creators doing all these, they are basically ruining their own game. 

    My post here i would like to talk only about the dragons.... in fact i will criticize it. As seems that the game maker would not even bother the balance of power between the old cards and new. That stupid Aerolian Sol (i don't care if i spell right... it is a trash for me) basically make all the other heroes completely useless. And those stupid celestial/ dragon combo would allow the spamming of high cost monsters and spell at 0 costs !!!!! 

    I understand the game maker approach to attract some money players, but create such an overpowered cards does not make any sense for me.

    I start to think that they operate the game without any sense of ethnics.

    -9
  • sense124's Avatar Mavka 270 114 Posts Joined 07/22/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    I think LoR needs its own salt thread. The game pretty much has as much bs moments as hs imo.

    5
  • FenrirWulf's Avatar Duskrider 635 158 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    I think that Aurelion Sol, at least what he does as a card, is fine. His theme is supposed to be a game-ending bomb that allows you to play massive creatures and spells that swing the game in your favor, and that is exactly what he does. A giant space dragon that can create galaxies should have a power that is similar to that.

    I think that the problem is that he does it too consistently that most other decks can't really keep up unless they're aggro and beat the crap out of their Nexus. The only good nerf I can imagine that would possibly satisfy everyone is that his Level Up condition needs to be increased, by quite a bit as well. We have Purrsuit of Perfection crying in the corner because even though his statline is massive and works well as a game-ending tool, his condition to summon it is insanely hard to do. Meanwhile, dropping Aurelion Sol on 10 Mana would occasionally just cause him to level up if the opponent has no answers. Maybe his stats as well, because even without leveling up, a 10/10 with SpellShield that draws you a really good card when you play him is already good enough by itself.

    I think that Aurelion Sol would be a pretty fair and balanced card if he were an 8/8 that level up when you have 25 or 30 power. That at the very least allows some more counterplay when he is played on 10 Mana.

    2
  • Alfi's Avatar Devoted Academic 1255 784 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From FenrirWulf

    I think that the problem is that he does it too consistently that most other decks can't really keep up unless they're aggro and beat the crap out of their Nexus. The only good nerf I can imagine that would possibly satisfy everyone is that his Level Up condition needs to be increased, by quite a bit as well. We have Purrsuit of Perfection crying in the corner because even though his statline is massive and works well as a game-ending tool, his condition to summon it is insanely hard to do. Meanwhile, dropping Aurelion Sol on 10 Mana would occasionally just cause him to level up if the opponent has no answers. Maybe his stats as well, because even without leveling up, a 10/10 with SpellShield that draws you a really good card when you play him is already good enough by itself.

    Or Level up: Your other allies have 20+ totalpower

    -=alfi=-

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  • CursedParrot's Avatar 550 656 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    What? Aurelion Sol isn't even in any Tier One decks. He's a Ten Cost card that doesn't win the game the turn it is played, compared to Riptide Rex or even Swain + The Leviathan he is so much slower. He is very powerful against other control decks, but he is definitely not a broken card. However, he may be a poorly designed card, since his level two is just "I win," which isn't particularly interesting or fun. Maybe he should have "Your Celestials cost half as much (rounded down)" and Living Legends could be replaced with another spell, but other than that he is a mostly fine card. Honestly, the new 1 drops seem like a far bigger issue to me than a card that wins on turn ten (the 1 mana 3/3 and the 1 mana 4/1 Fearsome). 

    Also, I don't think that a deck needs to be particularly aggressive to beat ASol. A Midrange deck like Bannerman or Sejuani can often kill opponents before turn ten. If you're playing a meme combo deck ASol will crush you, but in general he's not a problem for most decks. 

    9
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar 795 732 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    https://lor.mobalytics.gg/meta-tier-list

    The first Aurelion Sol deck is all the way down in tier B.

    This seems like a case of you needing to git gud.

    5
  • FenrirWulf's Avatar Duskrider 635 158 Posts Joined 06/12/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    I don't think it is a case of git gud. I've seen quite a fair share of games with Aurelion Sol and yes they may not be the best deck in the game. (I think Swain TF is.) However, I do think that just because it's not Tier 1 does not mean that it does not need tweaking. I think there should be more counterplay to Aurelion Sol, just as there should be more counterplay to other cards like Riptide Rex and Ezreal. That's why I think that if they change Aurelion Sol's Level Up condition, I'd be fine with. Just tone it down a bit. Otherwise, his decks are fine where they are now. The cards they run aren't bad nor are they outright broken. They have a very decent winrate to be called a competitive deck. It's just sometimes unfun to play against.

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  • Forgottenslayer's Avatar 115 30 Posts Joined 07/19/2020
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    I guess I’m ok with Sol being what he is but I think a change to spellshield is really what is needed. I thinking making it last one turn like barrier would be go a long way to making everything other than face aggro  a lot more effective at dealing with these damn dragons. You burn my vengeance with a burst spellshield fine ...... you sit there with a spellspell for 3 turns while I have a vengeance sitting in my hand that’s bull and weakens big spells like crazy.

    -1
  • meisterz39's Avatar 645 738 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    For anyone pointing to the Mobalytics tier list to say it's fine - Aurelion Sol doesn't need to be top tier to be problematic. The quintessential counter example to this kind of argument was Caverns Below Rogue from Hearthstone. The deck had a pretty meh win rate - just slightly over 50% - but that never stopped it from being a menace because in every match-up it was either unbeatable or trash, meaning every game played against it was never fun or interesting because you could predict the outcome perfectly without playing a single card.

    Aurelion Sol seems to operate in much the same way - he's such a dramatically overpowered control win condition that either you're playing an aggro/midrange deck that can beat the enemy down before they do anything interesting, or you're playing a slower deck that's going to lose 100% of the time. I imagine either tweaking the level up condition or changing the cost reduction factor for Celestial cards (or both) would go a long way to balancing him out as a control win condition and leave room for other control decks to have a chance in those control mirror matches.

    One last note to the original poster - I don't think I'd call ASol decks "Dragon Decks" because the popular ones feature very few dragons, and none of the Dragon synergy cards. I expect the Call of the Mountain expansion that features Demacia will enable an earnest Dragon deck, but right now they just seem to have teased it a bit with this first expansion of the set.

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  • CursedParrot's Avatar 550 656 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    @Meisterz39
    My thoughts exactly: ASol isn’t overpowered, he’s just a badly designed card. His level up should be “Round End: Your Allies have 25+ Power” and his level 2 effect should be “your Celestials cost half as much, rounded down.” To compensate for the decrease in power level, he could honestly be brought down to a 9 mana 9/9. Due to his level up he’d be level 2 around the same time Karma is (but requiring some board setup) and he’d be on a similar power level to karma (halving the cost of Celestials instead of doubling the effect of spells). I know he’s supposed to be this huge space dragon but putting him at ten mana forces him to have to be broken to be Competitively viable (as shown by the fact that he’s insane in the late game but still not a top-tier card).

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  • OldManSanns's Avatar Administrator Dinosaur 940 869 Posts Joined 08/05/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From legolas5749

    Dragon Deck - A Symbol of Developers' Stupidity

    My post here i would like to talk only about the dragons.... in fact i will criticize it. As seems that the game maker would not even bother the balance of power between the old cards and new. That stupid Aerolian Sol (i don't care if i spell right... it is a trash for me) basically make all the other heroes completely useless. And those stupid celestial/ dragon combo would allow the spamming of high cost monsters and spell at 0 costs !!!!! 

    I'm confused... did you want to talk about the dragon tribe on the whole or just Aurelion Sol + The Great Beyond who happen to be a dragon? The Destroyer, The Immortal Fire, and The Scourge are just as problematic as the former and don't have the dragon tag.

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  • RuneterraTV's Avatar 60 4 Posts Joined 09/07/2020
    Posted 5 months, 2 weeks ago

    Talking about good or bad design is difficult if you do not know what something was designed for in the first place. I personally am not thrilled about Call of the Mountain. I do not like RNG , i am not a fan of cards like Aurelion Sol , and i do not enjoy games that i win or lose almost regardless of what i have been doing.

    If this expansion was designed to cater to my needs, than that was poorly done. But i give Riot some credit and will assume that there is another crowd out there (most likely consisting of people that spend actual money) that expects effortless wins, BIG plays, smashing combos and ridiculous RNG swings.

    Hearthstone does not sit on the Iron Throne for nothing.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • Sykomyke's Avatar Explorer of Dragons 420 326 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 5 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From RuneterraTV

    Talking about good or bad design is difficult if you do not know what something was designed for in the first place. I personally am not thrilled about Call of the Mountain. I do not like RNG , i am not a fan of cards like Aurelion Sol , and i do not enjoy games that i win or lose almost regardless of what i have been doing.

    If this expansion was designed to cater to my needs, than that was poorly done. But i give Riot some credit and will assume that there is another crowd out there (most likely consisting of people that spend actual money) that expects effortless wins, BIG plays, smashing combos and ridiculous RNG swings.

    Hearthstone does not sit on the Iron Throne for nothing.

    Cater to your needs?  Snide comments at people who may pay for cosmetics? More snide comments assuming that anyone who likes Asol expects "effortless wins"?

    Not sure what you were expecting with your first response, but I wouldn't expect a warm welcome with an opening statement like that.

    As someone who has played pure Asol decks, and decks without Asol, and games where I never drew an Asol.  I can assure you that creative play can make it so you can kill the big boi.  And playing them is actually difficult.  Especially in a pure deck where you don't have a ton of great stat value. (Most of the invoke cards are sub-par in stats so they are very poor tempo plays).

    Noone is questioning that Asol isn't a value card.  He's probably the "king of value" in LoR.  But when it comes to tempo, most competent people will tell you that Asol decks generally aren't tempo decks.  Most of the decks include many sources of healing because you'll be low while trying to stem the flow of blood from any aggro or midrange deck that is looking to close you out early.

     

    9
  • RuneterraTV's Avatar 60 4 Posts Joined 09/07/2020
    Posted 5 months, 2 weeks ago

    It is heartbreaking to see someone using Gene Wilder as an avatar and taking things so seriously at the same time. But i also did a bad job at stating my point maybe.

    Let me specify. I played thousands of hours playing Hearthstone, Gwent and Runeterra and have seen a ton of expansions being released. They all feature  similar elements : wild Combos,  increased RNG and cards above the power average of older ones.

    And while i do not like those elements in cardgames i am sure the game designer is trying to give the majority of players what they want (and what they would pay for).

    It looks like you took the most offense from the term "effortless". I should have used "easy" or "casual" maybe. Not every player has a lot of time playing a game, learning it and collecting cards. Also, some will never be good players. They come home from work, studying or school and they want a fun time. And i sympathize. Losing is not fun most of the time. I suspect that developers give them cards and mechanics that guarantee a minimum winrate at a maximum fun level, no matter how much time they spent at a game previously and regardless of their current skill level.

    RNG swings and cards strong enough that they simply win at a certain point in the game probably help those players enjoying themselves. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is just not my cup of tea.

    My first post here certainly wasn´t meant to offend anyone. If i did, i am sorry.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • CursedParrot's Avatar 550 656 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months, 2 weeks ago

    @RuneterraTV

    I think that your posts might come across as mean because what you’re essentially saying is “I blame the player base for being too casual and ruining the game design,” which will make people annoyed because they are being blamed for something outside of their control. Also, I would argue that LoR isn’t looking to capture the super-casual crowd of HS (the Initiative system by itself makes LoR ill-suited to becoming a very casual game), so I think that argument doesn’t necessarily work here.

    Your point about LoR card design becoming more random/swingy and having less strategy is also probably not the best explanation for the mechanics of this expansion. Let’s go over the mechanics of this expansion and see if they’re more random/swingy than in the Foundations set.

    1. Nightfall: Forces players to plan out turns in advance and save non-Nightfall cards to combo with. Pretty strategic.

    2: Daybreak: Mostly just exists for flavor reasons. Doesn’t really add much.

    3: Support: Creates interesting decisions about what units to support and in what order. Pretty strategic.

    4. Spellshield: Helps devalue removals. Not particularly strategic or non strategic.

    5. Gems: Forces preemptive plays and considering what actions the opponent will likely take. Fairly strategic.

    6. Behold: Creates interesting deckbuilding choices. Doesn’t really effect strategy too much.

    7. Invoke: Adds decision making in terms of which Celestial to pick, but also creates extreme variance. Probably the most swingy/RNG mechanic we’ve seen outside of Bilgewater.

    8. Fury: Interesting keyword that adds strategy about whether or not to block Fury units. 

    From my analysis (feel free to disagree or inform me of any mechanics I missed), it seems like a majority of this expansion’s mechanics add strategy rather than swinginess. Therefore, I think it would make more sense to deduce that Riot wants to add strategy and decision making than that they want to add swing plays. I actually think that the biggest flaw in Riot’s design is Flavor, since they seem to have made mechanics like Daybreak and Invoke more to fulfill the flavor of the region than because they thought they’d be the best for the game. Daybreak and Invoke aren’t necessarily bad, they’re just not quite as amazing as keywords like Vulnerable, Plunder, or Frostbite in terms of what they do for gameplay.

    5
  • RuneterraTV's Avatar 60 4 Posts Joined 09/07/2020
    Posted 5 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From CursedParrot
    I think that your posts might come across as mean because what you’re essentially saying is “I blame the player base for being too casual and ruining the game design”

    Thats exactly where i didn´t make myself clear enough. Blaming people for what they are or enjoy is exactly the opposite of what i was trying to say. I am well aware that different people enjoy different things. And what i want is not better for the game by default or superior to what others enjoy. I do sympathize both with casual players and with gamedesigners appealing to them. It is the OP that claimed Aurelion Sol is the result of failed game design.

    What i was trying to say is that, without knowing what Riot wanted to design we can not say if they failed. I do not like Aurelion, but i can see why it exists. And it is one of the most played cards of the expansion. In terms of keeping people engaged it probably is a success (if that is what Riot designed it for).

    In terms of game balance you might argue for or against it. It is not OP for sure. But vs. Aurelion decks i simply had too many games i personally consider a waste of time, because what i did in the game did not matter at all, whether i lost to some random invoked card or played vs an unbeatable draw (draw RNG is something else i do not like about Runeterra, in comparison to Gwent i might add, i know it is part of every cardgame).

    Again, that is a personal thing. You can argue for RNG (keeps games fresh and different, creates memorable moments) and against it (reduces player agency over the outcome of the game, cannot be played around). I can only say that RNG does not float my boat.

    I do appreciate the effort you made to showcase that the focus of Call of the Mountain is not only on RNG but more strategy. That is the way way to go in healthy discussions. And i partially agree with your point. But some newly introduced mechanics are combined with fairly swingy RNG again :

    1. Nightfall

    - Lunari Priestess (invokes a card)

    - Unspeakable Horror (creates a random Nightfall card)

    - Nocturnes unspeakable Horror (same)

    2. Daybreak

    - Rahvun (create a random Daybreak card)

    - Solari Priestess (invokes Celestial card costing 4, 5 or 6 mana)

    6. Behold

    - Behold the Infinite (invoke)

    From where i stand, the RNG factor is featured at least prominently in the expansion, and from my point of view it devaluates the strategic aspect of the game. Yet i am aware that people might enjoy exactly that and Riot might simply be delivering. Whether i like it or not.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • meisterz39's Avatar 645 738 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 5 months, 2 weeks ago
    Quote From CursedParrot

    From my analysis (feel free to disagree or inform me of any mechanics I missed), it seems like a majority of this expansion’s mechanics add strategy rather than swinginess. Therefore, I think it would make more sense to deduce that Riot wants to add strategy and decision making than that they want to add swing plays. I actually think that the biggest flaw in Riot’s design is Flavor, since they seem to have made mechanics like Daybreak and Invoke more to fulfill the flavor of the region than because they thought they’d be the best for the game. Daybreak and Invoke aren’t necessarily bad, they’re just not quite as amazing as keywords like Vulnerable, Plunder, or Frostbite in terms of what they do for gameplay.

    I agree with the idea that some of Riot's new mechanics are strictly for flavor, and don't really make sense as evergreen-type keywords, but I wonder about the idea that the expansion reflects a move toward more strategy and less random swings. In particular, while I think your analysis of each mechanic makes sense in terms of the strategic vs. random spectrum, you're treating each mechanic as equal, but I think that ignores a lot of why Celestials are powerful.

    First, Celestials are way more powerful in practice than they are on paper because the "extreme variance" of invoke is easily managed. Playing cards like Solari Priestess and Starshaping ensures you can curve out while playing Celestial cards and, since the more expensive ones are more OP, this also ensures you get only really powerful choices. So, any Celestial Control deck is going to have tons of OP cards available to it if/when it reaches the late game.

    Second, the way to get around Celestial cards is to focus on tempo and open attacking before your opponent can play their powerful (but slow) spells and big units. But the other mechanics in the set (e.g. Daybreak, Nightfall) incentivize playing units prior to attacking to get value out of their single-round buffs. Even Support has hints of incentivizing board development before attacking, as you may need more units on board to get value out of Support cards. This emphasis on what I'll call "single round tempo" gives Celestials more time to be impactful.

    The net result is that the sum total of new mechanics (weighted for this sort of "relative power level") leans heavily in favor of Celestials. I think we saw that in the first week when people were playing with a near-exclusive focus on "new content" - Aurelion Sol was king. The solution to these decks was never to play more new content, but rather to return to old mainstays that emphasize more traditional aggressive or tempo strategies.

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  • TheTriferianGeneral's Avatar 305 278 Posts Joined 02/10/2020
    Posted 5 months, 2 weeks ago

    If you just play decent midrange/aggro decks celestials just get stomped (from what i experienced).

    If your deck is good at open swinging, it is good against celestials-period.

    The fact that daybreak, nightfall, and support are ALL bad at that is proably the reason why targon as a region is so unfavoured in high elo, where passing the priority with playing a card can cost you the game and where being not flexible enough is a criteria for a deck to be unplayable. 

    Celestials are a value, control archetype, they are slow but powerful and especially for unexperienced players this is quite fatal since they usually don't pull a turn 5 leathal off.

    I don't really know how invoke cards are witnessed by other high elo players but i would guess the majority doesn't mind them too much. 

     

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Nightfall 555 800 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months, 1 week ago
    Quote From RuneterraTV

    I played thousands of hours playing Hearthstone, Gwent and Runeterra and have seen a ton of expansions being released. They all feature  similar elements : wild Combos,  increased RNG and cards above the power average of older ones.

    Except they don't. Call of the Mountain cards are not more powerful than the ones from Rising Tides. All of the most powerful archetypes from Rising Tides still work, and most are better than any of the new archetypes. For the most part, these old archetypes use only one or two of the new cards since the update.

    Here's what expansions for all card games do have in common: Bad players immediately complaining about cards that seem to them to be too strong when in reality there's nothing overpowered about them. Players who don't even understand the game accusing the developers of being bad at game design. And best of all, players with a favorite archetype that is slightly threatened by a new card who say this will make them quit the game.

    3
  • RuneterraTV's Avatar 60 4 Posts Joined 09/07/2020
    Posted 5 months, 1 week ago

    I don´t think there is a disagreement here, as you mentioned there is a difference between individual cards and archetypes that are based on them. In fact i think Riot, unlike other developers like Blizzard or CDPR, maintained a good balance introducing new cards and keeping older decks viable. You might even argue that new archetypes are too weak in comparison to older ones. So far. Since CotM is spread over three releases, the verdict is still out there. We have to wait and see what direction CotM is going to.

    But if you look at some cards, their "value for mana cost" is crazy. I am thinking of cards like "The Golden Sister" that gives 8/6 of vanilla power, spread on two bodies, one with Lifesteal and the other with Elusive. Another example is living legends, a 10 mana burst spell that refills your mana and fills your hand with 0 cost cards. And there are more cards in the invoke pool that are just crazy in terms of value and way above the mana/stats ratio of older cards.

    Wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph.

     

     

     

     

     

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