Over correction?

  • Forgottenslayer's Avatar 115 30 Posts Joined 07/19/2020
    Posted 5 months ago

    Anyone played against a really good Lee Sin lately? 22 damage in one turn is kinda ludicrous. Especially considering the protections he has spell shield and deny do an excellent job rending him unmovable. And the card that fills your hands with gems works wonders with him. I’m just not sure how to deal with him Deny and spell shield strong. 

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  • sto650's Avatar Santa Braum 485 438 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 5 months ago

    Lee Sin is pretty overtuned, if they get the right cards. The best ways to deal with him involve just killing him outright.

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Nightfall 600 832 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months ago

    Lee Sin is absurdly OP right now, and here's why:

    There are a few streamers I consider to be bad at the game -- frequent misplays, not even understanding common interactions and effects, etc. I'm not going to name names, but let's just agree that they exist. You can watch those streamers play any Lee Sin deck -- it doesn't even have to be a very good deck -- and you can see them make several egregious misplays over the course of the game. But then when Lee Sin drops, the rest of the game did not matter, even against an opponent who was playing well. Dragon Kick = Win. Almost without exception. And because Lee Sin lives in the same region as Deny and several other strong removal counters, it's nearly impossible to kill him before he can kick.

    Of course, it's a different story when they face a mirror match. Then it's hilarious to see how fast they go down.

    But the fact that Lee Sin can so often save your bacon when you've played like a blind monkey, that's just ... wrong.

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  • thazud's Avatar Duskrider 190 60 Posts Joined 06/05/2019
    Posted 5 months ago

    Lee Sin seems very strong when you have the right cards around him - and especielly if he is played on curve and isn't dealt with immediately. The overall weakness of the deck (primary the Ionia/Targon version) is that you have to draw him, and if he is removed right away you might be en trouble. 

    I don't think he is broken at all. But it is not the most difficult OTK.

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  • Hellcopter's Avatar 235 284 Posts Joined 02/09/2020
    Posted 5 months ago

    The biggest issue with Lee is how hard it is to remove him from the field.

    There are only 3 ways to remove Lee:
    1- Spells/Skills -> 3x Bastion + 3x Deny. Good luck with that.
    2- Challenger keyword -> Lee can cast barrier on himself. Good luck with that as well.
    3- Hush -> Only for Targon decks. Good luck fishing your 3 Hush copies to match their 3x Lee Sin exactly when needed.

    Lee is being a problem right now and i hope Riot adress it quickly in the next patch.

    Hearthstone: Me vs Firebat -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NCE81owjo

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Nightfall 600 832 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months ago
    Quote From thazud

     The overall weakness of the deck (primary the Ionia/Targon version) is that you have to draw him

    The win rate of the deck begs to differ. It's an extremely, extremely consistent deck, which would not be the case if it relied on drawing Lee Sin naturally. Solari Priestess has a 50-50 shot at pulling Written in Stars, so drawing him is usually not difficult at all.

    Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I believe this blunder is far worse than any balance snafu we ever saw in Hearthstone.

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  • thazud's Avatar Duskrider 190 60 Posts Joined 06/05/2019
    Posted 5 months ago
    Quote From FortyDust
    Quote From thazud

     The overall weakness of the deck (primary the Ionia/Targon version) is that you have to draw him

    The win rate of the deck begs to differ. It's an extremely, extremely consistent deck, which would not be the case if it relied on drawing Lee Sin naturally. Solari Priestess has a 50-50 shot at pulling Written in Stars, so drawing him is usually not difficult at all.

    Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I believe this blunder is far worse than any balance snafu we ever saw in Hearthstone.

    I am not that worried to be honest. If the deck becomes too problematic, the meta will probably adjust to find a way to counter it. Lee Sin seems very prone to Frejjord removal and Frostbite. Other Targon decks could rise as Lee Sin also seems prone to Hush and Bastion. I have also been succesful against the Targon/Ionia version with hard aggro. So I don't think he will be broken.  

    I might be wrong on this and if he gets too problematic I am sure Riot will adjust him accordingly - as they have done with other champions (e.g. they adjusted Braum pretty quickly after his initial buff to 1/5). Regardless, I just think that people should adjust their tactics instead of calling for nerfs right off the bat. 

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  • Forgottenslayer's Avatar 115 30 Posts Joined 07/19/2020
    Posted 5 months ago

    I tried burning him with vengeance they used a burst spellshield with spell mana. I tried buffing a follower to drop him they used two cheap spells to give him barrier with the draw engine they have I just found it impossible to kill him with my deck. I’d say vengeance needs a buff but it’s fine against everyday that does’t have spellshield which leads me to believe once again spellshield is just to damn useful.

     

    Glad to see I’m not alone in wondering how to kill him. I’m glad the are trying to balance underused cards so they are useful but damn he is strong

    When playing a deck with frostbite though he isn’t that much of a proble

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  • minuano28's Avatar 315 173 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 5 months ago
    Quote From Forgottenslayer

    I tried burning him with vengeance they used a burst spellshield with spell mana. I tried buffing a follower to drop him they used two cheap spells to give him barrier with the draw engine they have I just found it impossible to kill him with my deck. I’d say vengeance needs a buff but it’s fine against everyday that does’t have spellshield which leads me to believe once again spellshield is just to damn useful.

     

    Glad to see I’m not alone in wondering how to kill him. I’m glad the are trying to balance underused cards so they are useful but damn he is strong

    When playing a deck with frostbite though he isn’t that much of a proble

    I have to disagree with the last sentence buddy, spell shield can counter frostbite and even if you don't have it Lee Sin players are only going to attack after they give him a barrier, so he will still survive the encounter even if he doesn't kill you units.

    Of course you can try going for some combo like frostbite into Culling Strike, Reckoning or Rimefang Wolf and even then a Lee sin player have many ways to counter those plays. Deny and Bastion for the former, Hush and Concussive Palm for the latter.

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Nightfall 600 832 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months ago

    And not even a mention of him in today's patch notes. Guess I'll be taking a little break from Runeterra until they figure their shit out.

    -1
  • minuano28's Avatar 315 173 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 5 months ago

    Bastion : Grant an ally +1+1 and Spell shield.

    Me : I have a bad feeling about this one.

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  • Forgottenslayer's Avatar 115 30 Posts Joined 07/19/2020
    Posted 5 months ago

    Yes spellshield can counter frost bite but I normally have more than one in my hand. Also seeing them buff spell shield is f ing hilarious

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  • sto650's Avatar Santa Braum 485 438 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 5 months ago
    Quote From minuano28
    Quote From Forgottenslayer

    I tried burning him with vengeance they used a burst spellshield with spell mana. I tried buffing a follower to drop him they used two cheap spells to give him barrier with the draw engine they have I just found it impossible to kill him with my deck. I’d say vengeance needs a buff but it’s fine against everyday that does’t have spellshield which leads me to believe once again spellshield is just to damn useful.

     

    Glad to see I’m not alone in wondering how to kill him. I’m glad the are trying to balance underused cards so they are useful but damn he is strong

    When playing a deck with frostbite though he isn’t that much of a proble

    I have to disagree with the last sentence buddy, spell shield can counter frostbite and even if you don't have it Lee Sin players are only going to attack after they give him a barrier, so he will still survive the encounter even if he doesn't kill you units.

    Spellshield does NOT counter frostbite from abilities - e.g. Icevale Archer, Sejuani, and Ashe's attack. I guarantee 100% that these abilities go right through the spellshield. It does counter harsh winds though.

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  • minuano28's Avatar 315 173 Posts Joined 09/10/2020
    Posted 5 months ago

    I know that, it still counter Flash freeze, Brittle steel, and harsh winds.

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  • Nifty129's Avatar 200 224 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 5 months ago

    So Lee Sin has a 50 percent winrate on mobalytics currently, so it's really bad.

    The buff to bastion will absolutely change that however.

    Expect it to go up to 55 percent with the next patch.

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  • OldManSanns's Avatar Administrator Dinosaur 940 871 Posts Joined 08/05/2019
    Posted 5 months ago
    Quote From sto650

    Spellshield does NOT counter frostbite from abilities - e.g. Icevale Archer, Sejuani, and Ashe's attack. I guarantee 100% that these abilities go right through the spellshield. It does counter harsh winds though.

    Rule of thumb:

    • Spells always get negated by SpellShield 
    • If it is a unit-based skill that goes onto the stack -- or in other words, if it can be Denied -- then it gets negated by SpellShield
    • If it is a unit-based skill that doesn't go onto the stack / can't be Denied, then it will slip through SpellShield 
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  • Hellcopter's Avatar 235 284 Posts Joined 02/09/2020
    Posted 5 months ago
    Quote From Nifty129

    So Lee Sin has a 50 percent winrate on mobalytics currently, so it's really bad.

    I won't scrutinize your comment as big companies like Blizzard loves to balance their game around that fact alone but man, is it single minded.

    Lets say there is a new deck who rises day 1 with a 80% winrate. Clearly OP right? So the meta game changes and now this new deck is being played everywhere. Some time later 3 other decks rise to counter this specific deck.
    The new meta game is now distibuted around 70% of those 4 decks and 30% whatever.
    Then if we look at the winrate of this new deck again, it should be around 47-50%.
    Now, would you say the deck is now balanced/bad because the metagame shifted towards it? Its obviously not. 

    Winrate is one indicator to know if something is getting out of control but Balance is much deeper then that.

    Hearthstone: Me vs Firebat -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NCE81owjo

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  • sto650's Avatar Santa Braum 485 438 Posts Joined 03/30/2019
    Posted 5 months ago
    Quote From Nifty129

    So Lee Sin has a 50 percent winrate on mobalytics currently, so it's really bad.

    The buff to bastion will absolutely change that however.

    Expect it to go up to 55 percent with the next patch.

    Or it has a steep learning curve and people just were not mastering it before they dropped it.

    But with Bastion buffed, I don't think you even need to be very good with Lee Sin anymore. Give it about 3 days and the entire ladder will be full of Lee Sin mirrors.

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