Even if it would be possible to level Maokai in any reasonable ammount of time, a deck out win still takes 4 extra turns. The Deck Destruction is designed to beat fatigue, which doesn't exist right now.
Maokai could become better in the future if the meta slows down, but i can't see the game being pushed in that direction due the existence of Ezreal decks.
The spell mana mechanic is not perfect but i believe is as balanced as it gets.
VengeanceBADCARDNAME is a great example. 7 mana to kill a single unit is overpriced. I can't think in a single target that Vengeance is casted upon that will end in a favorable trade. Ruination cost just 2 more and its a full board clear. On paper, this card is just terrible. But Vengeance does see competitve play. Why?
For 2 reasons: 1- It has Fast spell speed: Since its only possible to attack every other turn, removing a single big unit from combat is very valuable. But vengeance trully shines when the opponent cast buff/spells on his minions (often burst spells). At that point, Vengeance can become a 2-1 or even a 3-1 trade. 2- Mana pool mechanic: Even having the fast spell speed, holding on 7 mana WITHOUT having acess to the extra pool, would be too easy to play around. The card would also be much less consistent as some targets like Darius/Hecarin can end the game even before Vengeance could hit the board. Without this mechanic, Vengeance will need to cost less to see play, meaning it would be much harder to balance. It either would cost too much and never see play, or cost to little and always see play.
In short, this mechanic gives BAD spell cards a shot to see play in the right circunstances. Without the mana pool mechanic, this game would lose a lot of complex depth and become more or less like a Hearthstone 2.0
There is so much more to talk about the Spell mechanic but i think i said enough for now, this isn't the righ place anyway.
Its intended, otherwise a player could make low mana high attack allies unblockable if he has enough spells.
Example: I have 5/1 minion and my opponent has 3 spiders 1/1. I attack. He blocks with a 1/1 spider. Now if i play any 1 damage spell and kill his spider, should he take 5 damage to the nexus?
This would be extremely broken, because as long as i have spells, i can keep killing only the designated blocker and he would always take 5 damage every turn, no matter how many followers he has.
The reason why Overwhelm units hit nexus even when the blocker is already gone, is to prevent the defender from avoiding excess damage by killing his own blockers.
Shroom decks are extremely strong and probably the best deck you can build for the first few matches BUT gets considerably worse as the player accumulates wins.
From my experience, Heimer is the best champion by far for expedition runs. Shrooms after the 4th win are not really a problem unless someone gets near to perfect drafts. At that point, many other decks are far better then Shrooms if they draft well.
Lastly, building a focused Teemo deck is also very very risky. If your opponent finds a way to put 50 Shrooms in your deck on expedition, and you still can't find a way to finish him off, sorry to say this, but he deserves to win.
Just to be fair, Tryndamere is the second hardest unit in this game to remove from the field, just behind Ledros. Now, if you really need to get rid of him for good, just like in the moba game, you will have to kill him twice. Notice that his first form has 8/4 stats. The best way to do it, is to deal 4 damage to him (usually done defending with a follower with 4+ attack) and then play a killing spell like vengeance after he levels up.
Also, something that even some veteran players fail to realize is that Tryndamere only levels up once per game. If someone have 3 copies of Tryndamere in their deck, it will be needed to kill him twice only the first time. The remaining 2 copies will be already leveled up as 9/9 Fearsome + Overwhelm. Thats still good but not amazing stats for a Champion with an 8 mana cost.
Well, i just thought it would be nice to have a reference for how long it takes to compare it with other games, not that i was aiming for it anyway.
I am sure i played Hearthstone for at least over 5k hours (i believe its much higher then that), from open beta without ever missing any quests, 4 years straight. While i could craft every deck i wanted, i still missed a lot of legendaries and never, at any point, got close to own every card in the game.
I am 15k shards away from obtaining all 3 copies of every card, it will take around 600h of play over 2 and half months. I played mostly ranked games and only spent expedition tokens from chests.
I believe the same is achivable by playing around 400h-500h or maybe even less then that by just focusing on quests, first win of the day, weekly chests and expeditions, but gaming less means it will take over a longer period of time to complete (5 months+)
i'll let you know once i get there, but i am planning to slow down a bit from now.
TLDR; Full collection = less then 600h of gameplay.
At Top 100, most games usually ends around T6-T8 as most pure EZ decks can finish you off on T9 very consistently. Karma and Ez are somewhat useless champions if played early until T8-T10, in reality your opponent is wasting 8 mana, and its your job to find a strategy that punishes him for doing so.
Post your deck then we can try to give you better advice.
I know most of you guys havent even heard of this card before and proably none of you heard of this card since the changes made to it.
i feel you, as i also have complained about how those changes to iceborn legacy would kill the card BEFORE the patch was even alive. For more info, just give it a look in the patch thread.
Its fine to keep the card as it is, all it needs is the burst speed back.
1- Everyone is playing aggro: Aggro is strong, fast, consistent and easy to pilot; also it doesn't require owning champions as much as other decks. Obviously is always going to be popular especially to new players as designed to be. You didn't stated what kind of deck you are trying to play, so its hard to give advice, but even slow control decks like Warmother can beat aggro with the right curve if built properly.
2- Elusive and Fearsome are not interactive I agree with you on this one. I also dislike both mechanics for all the reasons you described. Both should be reworked in a way they feel more interactive.
3- More cheap conditional removals This one is quite bad as it could turn many high cost followers unplayable or Heimeirdinger into a must play champion for control decks.
4- Aggro being overpowered, Combo being overpowered, and Control pretty much not existing As time passes by, decks are getting more and more refined so aggro tends to get stronger even without any buffs. The only combo decks i remember are Ez and Karma/SI. After the last patch, the metagame got faster to the point combo Karma is not viable anymore and combo Ez is on the edge of being viable. Just a few control decks viable: Ashe, Fiora, Garen, Heimer, Lux, Karma, Anivia/Thresh and my Spidy token Elise which i am sitting at rank Master 14º right now.
5- There's no decisions or variety in deck-building or gameplay That's only true for optimal aggro decks that want to max damage. Its VERY untrue for anything else, and especially untrue for control decks. Hell, even aggro decks can tech in a few control cards and see their winrate increase if all there is are aggro decks.
6- Instead of playing better, balancing threat output, not overextending, finding ways to increase value generation... I do this every single game i play. Every day. Versus every deck, even aggro, and i do play a control deck. Most of my wins come from the reasons you listed above. Against aggro, its usually overextend into ruination. Against control and combo, too many resources wasted in the wrong targets. Also notice that, so far up to this date, Aggro decks didn't receive a single buff.
I am not sure why you are mad at this patch.
This game is getting better and better with each patch, Elusives and Fearsome units were impossible to dealt with when the game first launched. They are still a pain in the ass to deal with, but its much more manageable now then ever before.
I seriously have no idea what you guys are talking about. I've seem this combo ONCE so far at top 100 and it was SUPER slow, its hard to set up Kalista and the guy i faced still lost even playing the combo.
And even if the combo were a real problem, the card to complain about is Rekindler, not Kalista.
Early game: just avoid to block katarina, she will go back to the hand which means 3-4 mana tempo loss at cost of 3-4 health which is clearly not worth it.
Late game: She can be a powerhouse in the right circumstances but overall there are much better and more consistent finishers then her.
I seriously have no idea what you guys are talking about. I've seem this combo ONCE so far at top 100 and it was SUPER slow, its hard to set up Kalista and the guy i faced still lost even playing the combo.
Elise combined with Kalista will be the deck to beat now.
Hecarin raw power was nerfed, but Hecarin spam was buffed.
Iceborn Legacy went from from decent -> garbage. They fucked up really hard here. it should, at the very least, be a Fast Spell.
Pack Mentality was a bit buffed but still has the same problem as Iceborn Legacy: being a slow card is extremely risky versus not of a big payout when it resolves.
Poro Snack -> Now it became the old Iceborn Legacy that doesn't need a target. Still not playable.
Everything else is good and overall i like those changes.
Even if it would be possible to level Maokai in any reasonable ammount of time, a deck out win still takes 4 extra turns.
The Deck Destruction is designed to beat fatigue, which doesn't exist right now.
Maokai could become better in the future if the meta slows down, but i can't see the game being pushed in that direction due the existence of Ezreal decks.
Kalista can level up now from a single relic cast, interesting
How does scout work along Relentless Pursuit?
Now that i've read the entire thread, DoubleSummon and meisterz39 advices are solid.
The spell mana mechanic is not perfect but i believe is as balanced as it gets.
VengeanceBADCARDNAME is a great example.
7 mana to kill a single unit is overpriced. I can't think in a single target that Vengeance is casted upon that will end in a favorable trade. Ruination cost just 2 more and its a full board clear. On paper, this card is just terrible. But Vengeance does see competitve play. Why?
For 2 reasons:
1- It has Fast spell speed:
Since its only possible to attack every other turn, removing a single big unit from combat is very valuable.
But vengeance trully shines when the opponent cast buff/spells on his minions (often burst spells).
At that point, Vengeance can become a 2-1 or even a 3-1 trade.
2- Mana pool mechanic:
Even having the fast spell speed, holding on 7 mana WITHOUT having acess to the extra pool, would be too easy to play around. The card would also be much less consistent as some targets like Darius/Hecarin can end the game even before Vengeance could hit the board. Without this mechanic, Vengeance will need to cost less to see play, meaning it would be much harder to balance. It either would cost too much and never see play, or cost to little and always see play.
In short, this mechanic gives BAD spell cards a shot to see play in the right circunstances.
Without the mana pool mechanic, this game would lose a lot of complex depth and become more or less like a Hearthstone 2.0
There is so much more to talk about the Spell mechanic but i think i said enough for now, this isn't the righ place anyway.
Its intended, otherwise a player could make low mana high attack allies unblockable if he has enough spells.
Example: I have 5/1 minion and my opponent has 3 spiders 1/1.
I attack. He blocks with a 1/1 spider. Now if i play any 1 damage spell and kill his spider, should he take 5 damage to the nexus?
This would be extremely broken, because as long as i have spells, i can keep killing only the designated blocker and he would always take 5 damage every turn, no matter how many followers he has.
The reason why Overwhelm units hit nexus even when the blocker is already gone, is to prevent the defender from avoiding excess damage by killing his own blockers.
Title: "Ruination is broken and can't be fixed"
Guess you have all figured out then, not sure what this topic is supposed to accomplish?
My solution is quite simple: Build a deck with Ruination, go ranked and see how far you can go.
Shroom decks are extremely strong and probably the best deck you can build for the first few matches BUT gets considerably worse as the player accumulates wins.
From my experience, Heimer is the best champion by far for expedition runs.
Shrooms after the 4th win are not really a problem unless someone gets near to perfect drafts. At that point, many other decks are far better then Shrooms if they draft well.
Lastly, building a focused Teemo deck is also very very risky.
If your opponent finds a way to put 50 Shrooms in your deck on expedition, and you still can't find a way to finish him off, sorry to say this, but he deserves to win.
I find this funny because... are you losing on purpouse? Why try and not do? Whats your plan to start to win more?
i'll try to lose less;
I'll try to live longer;
i'll try to make more money;
I'll try to lose weight;
all empty sentences... people who say such things will acomplish anything and are bounded to fail before they start.
Pretty much what BlueSpark said, + frost effects.
Just to be fair, Tryndamere is the second hardest unit in this game to remove from the field, just behind Ledros.
Now, if you really need to get rid of him for good, just like in the moba game, you will have to kill him twice.
Notice that his first form has 8/4 stats. The best way to do it, is to deal 4 damage to him (usually done defending with a follower with 4+ attack) and then play a killing spell like vengeance after he levels up.
Also, something that even some veteran players fail to realize is that Tryndamere only levels up once per game.
If someone have 3 copies of Tryndamere in their deck, it will be needed to kill him twice only the first time. The remaining 2 copies will be already leveled up as 9/9 Fearsome + Overwhelm. Thats still good but not amazing stats for a Champion with an 8 mana cost.
Well, i just thought it would be nice to have a reference for how long it takes to compare it with other games, not that i was aiming for it anyway.
I am sure i played Hearthstone for at least over 5k hours (i believe its much higher then that), from open beta without ever missing any quests, 4 years straight. While i could craft every deck i wanted, i still missed a lot of legendaries and never, at any point, got close to own every card in the game.
I am 15k shards away from obtaining all 3 copies of every card, it will take around 600h of play over 2 and half months.
I played mostly ranked games and only spent expedition tokens from chests.
I believe the same is achivable by playing around 400h-500h or maybe even less then that by just focusing on quests, first win of the day, weekly chests and expeditions, but gaming less means it will take over a longer period of time to complete (5 months+)
i'll let you know once i get there, but i am planning to slow down a bit from now.
TLDR; Full collection = less then 600h of gameplay.
At Top 100, most games usually ends around T6-T8 as most pure EZ decks can finish you off on T9 very consistently.
Karma and Ez are somewhat useless champions if played early until T8-T10, in reality your opponent is wasting 8 mana, and its your job to find a strategy that punishes him for doing so.
Post your deck then we can try to give you better advice.
i feel you, as i also have complained about how those changes to iceborn legacy would kill the card BEFORE the patch was even alive.
For more info, just give it a look in the patch thread.
Its fine to keep the card as it is, all it needs is the burst speed back.
Ok, lets break your post into smaller parts:
1- Everyone is playing aggro:
Aggro is strong, fast, consistent and easy to pilot; also it doesn't require owning champions as much as other decks.
Obviously is always going to be popular especially to new players as designed to be.
You didn't stated what kind of deck you are trying to play, so its hard to give advice, but even slow control decks like Warmother can beat aggro with the right curve if built properly.
2- Elusive and Fearsome are not interactive
I agree with you on this one. I also dislike both mechanics for all the reasons you described. Both should be reworked in a way they feel more interactive.
3- More cheap conditional removals
This one is quite bad as it could turn many high cost followers unplayable or Heimeirdinger into a must play champion for control decks.
4- Aggro being overpowered, Combo being overpowered, and Control pretty much not existing
As time passes by, decks are getting more and more refined so aggro tends to get stronger even without any buffs.
The only combo decks i remember are Ez and Karma/SI. After the last patch, the metagame got faster to the point combo Karma is not viable anymore and combo Ez is on the edge of being viable.
Just a few control decks viable: Ashe, Fiora, Garen, Heimer, Lux, Karma, Anivia/Thresh and my Spidy token Elise which i am sitting at rank Master 14º right now.
5- There's no decisions or variety in deck-building or gameplay
That's only true for optimal aggro decks that want to max damage. Its VERY untrue for anything else, and especially untrue for control decks.
Hell, even aggro decks can tech in a few control cards and see their winrate increase if all there is are aggro decks.
6- Instead of playing better, balancing threat output, not overextending, finding ways to increase value generation...
I do this every single game i play. Every day. Versus every deck, even aggro, and i do play a control deck.
Most of my wins come from the reasons you listed above. Against aggro, its usually overextend into ruination. Against control and combo, too many resources wasted in the wrong targets.
Also notice that, so far up to this date, Aggro decks didn't receive a single buff.
I am not sure why you are mad at this patch.
This game is getting better and better with each patch, Elusives and Fearsome units were impossible to dealt with when the game first launched.
They are still a pain in the ass to deal with, but its much more manageable now then ever before.
indeed
Early game: just avoid to block katarina, she will go back to the hand which means 3-4 mana tempo loss at cost of 3-4 health which is clearly not worth it.
Late game: She can be a powerhouse in the right circumstances but overall there are much better and more consistent finishers then her.
I seriously have no idea what you guys are talking about.
I've seem this combo ONCE so far at top 100 and it was SUPER slow, its hard to set up Kalista and the guy i faced still lost even playing the combo.
Or even better, we could start with all the cards already available am i right
Patch Notes:
Elise combined with Kalista will be the deck to beat now.
Hecarin raw power was nerfed, but Hecarin spam was buffed.
Iceborn Legacy went from from decent -> garbage. They fucked up really hard here. it should, at the very least, be a Fast Spell.
Pack Mentality was a bit buffed but still has the same problem as Iceborn Legacy: being a slow card is extremely risky versus not of a big payout when it resolves.
Poro Snack -> Now it became the old Iceborn Legacy that doesn't need a target. Still not playable.
Everything else is good and overall i like those changes.