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iWatchUSleep

Joined 05/28/2019 Achieve Points 1095 Posts 819

iWatchUSleep's Forum Posts

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 6 months ago

    One thing I see people here, and in other places too, assume wrongly is handlock's win condition and the fact that it "doesn't need the fatigue win-con because it wins through giants with windfury".

    But the reason it doesn't need that win condition is because there are no slow decks present that push it to fatigue.

    If a handlock player were to play against a control priest or control warrior they would absolutely need that fatigue win condition because their limited threats get cleared rather easily. 

    Just because that win condition is not relevant now doesn't mean it isn't limiting deck building.

    Obviously, there's plenty of other quest decks that push slower strategies away all the same. But handlock is no less of an offender, due to the fatigue win condition it has.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 3 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From Alfi
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    But... The deck isn't even that good? It gets countered by so much. So much so that it's barely even tier 3.

    It can be not the best devk but if it feels bad to play against it is uncool, to

    Uncool =/= needs to be nerfed.

    The only three nerfs I recall that weren't because the decks were blatantly overpowered were: Barnes, The Caverns Below and Shudderwock.

    Shudderwock was a literal broken card that took up entire extended turns just to otk the opponent which made it super flawed.

    Barnes was nerfed because of its stupid high-roll potential from as early as turn 3 onwards, paired with a unhealthy high mulligan winrate and a deck it was super popular in, albeit the deck wasn't very good, but generally managed to abuse the high-roll potential of the card to the absolute max.

    And lastly there's Quest Rogue. This is the deck I'd compare Tickatus most to. A card that sort of invalidates control decks. Two differences here are that Galakrond warlock (the deck Tickatus is used in most) isn't super popular and still allows for counterplay. If the warlock doesn't draw that single card early enough, it can easily be outpressured by a different control deck and still lose to them. Unlike Quest Rogue which was ridiculously consistent and couldn't really lose against slow decks.

    So that leaves Tickatus and the deck it belongs into as a control deck with a win-condition against slow decks. Exactly like control warrior. The only difference is seeing your cards get milled feels bad.

    Does that warrant a nerf? Not at all, in my opinion.

    In reply to Nerfing Tickatus
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 3 years, 2 months ago

    But... The deck isn't even that good? It gets countered by so much. So much so that it's barely even tier 3.

    In reply to Nerfing Tickatus
  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From GerritDeMan

    I'd say Acornbearer is a solid 1-drop.

    Fair point! I'd completely forgotten about that one since druid has mostly become a "one deck pony" since RoS.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 5 months ago
    Quote From Starscream

    Every class should have a strong 1 drop. I don't mind that Cleric exists, or even that Warrior Rover. What upsets me is that other classes simply don't have a solid one drop and thus games feel "unfair" and are decided very early due to these strong one drops.

    I appreciate balancing is not easy. But it seems preposterous some classes are so favoured in the early game.

    I suppose Warlock has Flame Imp. Am I missing any other obvious contenders?

    Shaman - ?

    Hunter - ?

    Mage - bye bye Mana Worm?

    Druid - ?

    Rogue - ?

    To be fair, most classes have a good one-drop option. Stat-wise Northshire Cleric, Eternium Rover and Flame Imp are the most busted. But there are other one-drops with slightly lesser stats but far stronger effects. Just look at Town Crier, Sludge Slurper and Pharaoh Cat for instance. Hunter has 'decent' one-drops in Shimmerfly and Springpaw and mage just got Babbling Book. The only exception would be druid at that point. And as previously said druid's identity sort of revolves around not doing much during the first few turns.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Painkiller1724
    Quote From Avalon
    Quote From Synesthesy

    But the last time I read a meta report for wild, it said that mech decks aren't that good at all....

    I really don't want to sound arrogant, but Tempostorm doesn't even consider Pirate Warrior to be viable, while it's still able to tear apart most of today's decks

    Indeed. 

    The only reliable info on wild meta come from hsreplay.net and vicioussyndicate.com. 

    The last report by VS was posted 2 months ago, before Barnes nerf...

    In hsreplay, when you filter to legend only, look at what decks appear there (and take a look at their WR): 1 - Mech/hand-buff paladin - 54,9% WR, 380 replays; 2 - SN1P-SN4P/Mecha'Thun Warlock - 59,6% WR, 250 replays. 

    (Sorry, couldn't paste the picture, it is not working on my mobile)

     

    ViciousSyndicate are actually releasing another wild meta report tomorrow. So we'll see who the top deck is.

    Agreed that Tempostorm's meta snapshots are ridiculous, for both standard and wild.

    There's a third option for wild meta snapshots though, and I'd say they're fairly accurate: team Rankstar. Created by some of the actual good wild players (RenoJackson for instance). They release snapshots on a (bi-)monthly basis.

     

    On topic: Agreed. Blizzard themselves said they would keep an eye on Mechwarper. Well Blizzard, it's time. Mech paladin and Sn1p-Sn4p warlock are unfun tier 1 decks which both can easily snowball out of control from turn 3-4 onwards.

     

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From sto650

    Let's summarize your points:

    1. Rank 4 - legend data is better for a given archetype, because there is far less variation in builds, and the builds are more optimized

    2. The optimized lists are responsible for winrate differences, not player skill

    Now, go back to my original post with hsreplay data and read it again. I've been assuming this whole time that you had actually read that post. Clearly, I should not have made that assumption. Good job showing many times over now in this argument that you're incapable of interpreting information, a fact which only now finally became clear to me.

    The reason I've consistently misinterpreted your posts is because you've been misinterpreting mine this entire time, like one giant straw man argument. The data I posted originally was for one single deck build, the most popular one, for each strong archetype. I even underlined those parts of the original post. Call me crazy, but when the data I posted was for one single deck build, the cards are exactly the same at all ranks, since it's exactly the same deck. Thus, I naturally assumed your objection had to be related to player skill, since a single deck cannot vary, by definition.

    My mistake for making such a generous assumption. And just to be blunt, you've been an absolute jerk - and it turns out the reason for it is your own inability to read my initial post. I'd honestly appreciate an apology.

    Oh then you're just further proving my point, thanks!

    Because the actual deck with the highest winrate on hsreplay right now is, drumroll please... Combo priest!! With a 61.3% winrate. With a build that has been getting more popular at, can you guess it? High legend, whoo!

     

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From sto650

    Your own quote from Dean Ayala, where he is making the point that archetype winrate hardly varies across all ranks. That says "overestimate" -- in other words, archetype winrates are pretty much the same everywhere on ladder. You are defeating your own argument with that quote. Allow me to put some of the rest his quote in here for you, "The reality in most [sic] all circumstances is that yes, a R5 player vs a High Legend player has a crazy low win rate regardless of deck choice. But archetype win% for those two groups doesn't really vary much at all." --Iksar

    Bottom line: combo priest winrate is combo priest winrate - it doesn't matter what rank your data comes from. From your own source.

    Edit: One more juicy one from Dean Ayala in a different place: "This is the thing I think is mostly a myth. At least a myth that there is some huge percentage difference between R5 and normal players."

    Oh come on. I even explained it in my previous post because I knew you would misinterpret it otherwise (something which you seem to have a knack of) and yet you still don't understand it?

    Alright. Once more, from the start: Dean explicitly states that: "That's why we chose R5 and above. Within that range the data doesn't vary much" they use the data from rank 5 onwards. Nowhere in this thread did I mention that a player's skill to play a deck is relevant. I even, as I just mentioned, explicitly stated that it is most likely due to deck builds that there is a difference in an archetype's winrate among different ranks. Hence why they look at rank 5 onwards, because at that point the builds vary only marginally and players have access to all the cards. Let me add an example, maybe that'll help: Combo priest players at lower ranks are most likely still not running Bwonsamdi, the Dead, unlike most players at ranks 5 and above.

    Good job showing that you're once again incapable of interpreting information though. Your quote mentions rank 5 - high legend and the difference between those two rank types. This has never been the point of debate. The point of debate is that data from all ranks differs from rank 5 to (high) legend.

    That was your initial standpoint, I'm not sure why you're trying to shift it now all of a sudden. 

     

    Bottom line: Combo priest winrate is combo priest winrate at ranks 5 and above, which is their measurement staff. As said by Dean Ayala.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From sto650
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
    Quote From sto650

    Not all of us purchase premium access to hsreplay.

    Then don't post incomplete data maybe?

    I didn't claim it was complete, now did I? Also, you're the one arguing for a more select data set - which is by definition LESS complete. Essentially, you're arguing that any data from lower rankings is irrelevant to the power level of a deck.

    "Let's just completely ignore all the people who don't have the time to grind legend every month because they are too noob and too unskilled for their data to matter." --iWatchyousleep

    This may not be your intention, but this is exactly what your argument boils down to. 

    Look I don't even really need to respond to this as AliRadicali already explained it to you but take this as a parting gift, if you will:

    Irrelevant? No. Less relevant? Definitely. And it's not just me who thinks that. An exempt from Dean Ayala's most recent conversation on Reddit, who, if you somehow don't know, is one of Hearthstone's lead designers (blue is Dean): 

    "Imagine thinking that the ladder stats of rank 5 players are even borderline relevant to anything"

    "I mean, statistically speaking, they are the most relevant to the entire population. That's why we chose R5 and above. Within that range the data doesn't vary much, and outside that range… 1/2.

    very low rank play is more about access to cards rather than card or deck balance. And I think players overestimate how different their archetype win rate data is vs groups they perceive to be much lower skilled than they are."

     

    So yes, data from rank 5, technically 4 as 5 is the experiment rank, and onwards is far more reliable as it doesn't vary much, most likely due to card accessibility and deck builds. So you can continue arguing this all you want but at the end of the day even the Hearthstone designers, the very people who decide what cards get changed, do not agree with you.

    Oh and next time you're gonna do this cute strawman quote thing, at least have the decency to spell that person's name properly, okay?

    Thanks.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From sto650

    Not all of us purchase premium access to hsreplay.

    Then don't post incomplete data maybe?

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From sto650
    Quote From MalcolmReynolds

    I think the big problem is just that priest as a class never seems to be in a good spot.

    either they have the best deck and everyone hates it, or they are in the worst spot and guess what? it is still annoying to play against. 

    Priest in general does not seem like a very healthy class, no matter where it is in the tier list.

    It's objectively not even the best deck right now. Let's just use the most popular deck from hsreplay for several of the strongest archetypes:

    Murloc Shaman: 57.5% winrate

    Highlander Hunter: 57.85% winrate

    Murloc Paladin: 56.98% winrate

    Aggro Warrior: 57.34% winrate

    Mech Hunter: 57.93% winrate

    Combo Priest: 56.69 % winrate

    I could keep going with quite a few other decks that have similar winrates, but I think I've made my point.

    You've made the point that you're good at blindly copying hsreplay data, yes.

    Highlander mage also never had the highest winrate on hsreplay, yet it was cleary the strongest decks from rank 4 onwards.

    Same with combo priest. Filter out all the data from ranks 5 and below and then post those winrates again.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali

    I don't disagree with your reasoning, and if the alternative is to HoF Northshire and rework priest entirely, I'd take it in a heartbeat. However, I think my proposal is a reasonable compromise if T5 don't want to take such drastic action or want to preserve one of the most defining priest cards in standard, albeit in diminished form.

    Like I said I don't have very strong feelings on wild, so if you say broken is OK, I'll take your word for it. At the time when Mana Wraith got hit, I absolutely would've preferred it get rotated, although that was before Arcane Flakmage and Flame Ward. That said I don't think what I'm proposing is anywhere near as drastic as doubling the mana cost on a one-drop. I'm pretty sure that any deck running cleric would continue to do so.

     

    Anyway, I think most people in the thread largely agree on what the issues are, if not on what the best approach is to solving them.

    I totally see where you're coming from, but do not underestimate that 1 health nerf. If Northshire Cleric had 2 health it would die to rogue's upgraded hero power, it would die to Kobold Librarian and Buccaneer, it would die to Murkspark Eel and Jade Claws among other things. All of the above cards see a lot of play in wild.

    Yes, your nerf isn't quite as severe as doubling its mana cost, but it would still hurt wild priest far more than it should. Hence my standpoint.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Motions
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    Strong 1/3s aren't an issue in wild and Eternium Rover will rotate next year anyway. No need to hurt priest decks in wild because of standard.

    Might also give Blizzard some incentive to actually add a few good classic cards for priest for once. 

    HoF the only basic class card draw minion for priest is a really bad idea.
    It will make it so that Priest will definately only be playing resurrect decks, as there is no other viable deck option available.
    Once those resurrect cards rotate, they will be bottom tier again. 

    I rather see a minor nerf instead.

    Please read my entire post, thank you. 

     

    Butchering priest's early game in wild just so its dumpsterfire standard counterpart gets another band-aid fix seems like a terrible solution in my opinion.

    I agree that Northshire Cleric and Eternium Rover are too strong for standard right now and that Blizzard should not print similar cards anymore in the future. But I am opposed to nerfing them.

     

    What I want to see is Northshire Cleric hall of famed and Blizzard printing a handful of good, standalone, basic/classic priest cards. So that priest finally has a shell that its future archetypes can work with, like nearly every other class.

    And yes, Tunnel Trogg was absolutely busted in standard and yet sees no play whatsoever anymore in wild. This is the main reason why I don't want to see Northshire Cleric get nerfed.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago
    Quote From Yusuke
    Quote From iWatchUSleep

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    This should include manawyrm as well... hate the new useless wyrm.

    While I would have agreed pre-SoU, unnerfing Mana Wyrm right now would most likely push secret mage even further over the top. 

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 6 months ago

    Can we, instead of nerfing them, just hall of fame them? 

    Strong 1/3s aren't an issue in wild and Eternium Rover will rotate next year anyway. No need to hurt priest decks in wild because of standard.

    Might also give Blizzard some incentive to actually add a few good classic cards for priest for once. 

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From ElSabidon

    They say it here. While Blizzard doesn't specify resurrecting as a unique strenght, it doesn't change the fact that generating minions is a core part of their gameplay.

    Which means they could easily shift away from an unfun, half-assed mechanic, which resurrect is, and actually add proper minion generation mechanics.

    Class identity is kept and wild doesn't have to suffer anymore.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From ElSabidon
    It is a problem because, like I said, Blizzard considers resurrection one of Priests classe identites (which means one of their strenghts). If the weakest class in standard also has a shit-tier strenght, you might as well just delete the class altogether. And, again, like I said before, this whole class identity thing is just terrible design altogether, so a shitty decision forced us to eat a shitty deck to play against for virtually the rest of Hearthstone's life.

    If that decision wasn't made in the first place, they could have just nerfed the deck to oblivion and call it a day. So, my idea was to change the mechanic in a way that allowed the deck to be good without being just so unfun to play against and allowing some actual counterplay: you're discovering a minion against res Priest, so you can purposefully interact with the res pool by choosing a bad minion to play aginst them (like Bomb Squad, for example).

    Where did they state that resurrection is a part of their mechanic? 
    In the blue post from a few weeks ago I see the following: 

    "Priest: Priests balance holy light and shadow magic to defeat their opponents. They control a battle’s outcome using powerful spells with situational applications. While not the most aggressive, they are able to generate, copy, and use combinations of cards to create a powerful army.

    • Strengths: Healing, narrow but powerful spells, copying, single-minion buffs, Deathrattle
    • Limitations: Card draw
    • Weaknesses: Face damage spells, multi-minion buffs"

    Just because they printed a few resurrect mechanics across a few expansions doesn't imply that it is a core part of that class (remember freeze shaman? Discard warlock?).

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From ElSabidon

    That does pose a problem, though: the deck becomes absolute trash, because it loses too much reliability. So, with the archetype itself changed, here's what  I would do to give the deck some consistency back:

    How is this a problem again? Blizzard had no problems with butchering giants warlock and combo druid. Why should big priest be an exception? Because it requires even less thought to play compared to those other two, which results to shitty players flocking to it en masse?

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From kaladin
    Quote From iWatchUSleep
    Quote From Zertanix

    Even now when Big priest is a huge issue, Blizzard prints Plague of Death. That show they are not really looking into ways to solve Big Priest problem and that they only care for standard where priest is arguably worst class.

     

    Plague of Death doesn't affect big priest though.

    @Kaladin on the Vargoth nerf: Just give it "Deathrattle: return this to your hand." like Anub'arak.

    The point is not to return it to your hand, but to prevent it from ever actually dying.

    Does Anub'arak actually die? Despite triggering on Deathrattle I never tested it or saw it.

  • iWatchUSleep's Avatar
    1095 819 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 8 months ago
    Quote From Zertanix

    Even now when Big priest is a huge issue, Blizzard prints Plague of Death. That show they are not really looking into ways to solve Big Priest problem and that they only care for standard where priest is arguably worst class.

     

    Plague of Death doesn't affect big priest though.

    @Kaladin on the Vargoth nerf: Just give it "Deathrattle: return this to your hand." like Anub'arak.

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