Yes, but given that Ashe/Leblanc is nearly good right now, in the current state, I have to think it will be VERY good after getting buffed. Possibly too much so.
In any case, my gut feeling is that Ashe/Leblanc midrange frostbite is gonna be back, and I wanna be on the bandwagon right from the start.
Everyone just needs to chill out, let the meta settle and do some actual math and then swap decks to things that are powerful.
Thats the game operating as intended.
If your stuff you've been playing since bandle releases still didn't get countered a year later that would be messed up.
You seem to be under the impression that people here are complaining. We are not complaining. We are analyzing the situation that is developing, nothing more.
Speaking of which, new data is in, and the playrate of Mono-Shurima is plummeting, as I said it would. Numbers for the last two days:
Playrate down to 13%. Winrate down to just a shade over 50%.
Meanwhile, Riven/Viktor is up to 10% playrate with a 60% winrate.
I don't think people are nearly as upset as you think they are. Mono-Shurima can be explosive against basically any deck, if they get a good draw. So if that happens to a specific person, they might get upset, regardless of their deck. Also, when mono-Shurima wins, they force you to watch a mini-movie of level up animations, which is another thing that annoys people.
In point of fact, before this patch, the thing most people WERE complaining about was Bandle City, due to the exact situation you're describing. No one is upset about "card advantage" decks being beaten by Mono-Shurima. I'd imagine they are quite happy about the disappearance of Bandle City Value decks.
Sometimes, I feel like you invent controversy out of thin air.
Since decks with higher playrate will have a lower winrate and if it was truly a bad deck, it would not be able to maintain 50% winrate for so long despite having a ton of counters in the meta.
This is a subjective thing. None of the "counters" are getting higher than about a 2% playrate. Since mono-shurima has a 23% playrate, the mono-shurima players have a much higher chance of a mirror than a counter, honestly.
And that's the biggest reason it will continue moving to 50% winrate as the playrate increases.
Also out of curiosity, which kind of data set are you guys using (personally I use lor-meta and llorr-stats) because depending on the site you're using the playrate and winrates of decks may be wildly varied. But in general, Mono Shurima has 25% playrate while maintaining 49-50% of a winrate. In terms of strength, Mono Shurima is doing well in that department. Since decks with higher playrate will have a lower winrate and if it was truly a bad deck, it would not be able to maintain 50% winrate for so long despite having a ton of counters in the meta.
Is it tier 1 material? Eh, that's a bit hard to say still. Maybe in a week or so, there'd be a more defined meta and they become a tier 2 deck. But there could also be a case where the deck lists gets even more refined and goes to tier 1.
I use Runterra AR from what I am seeing the decks winrate is decreasing by the day going from 53% to 50%. It still has a high playrate tho. Around 19% last time I checked:
I also use Runeterra AR, but I use the stats page, and set the time window to the last two days, and that's how I get a playrate of 23% with a winrate of 51.6% over 13k matches.
The stats are up on Runeterra.Ar, and I have some personal experience with it as well. The site's data shows about 8.5k games played, making it a whopping 17% playrate over the past two days, which is pretty insane. About double the playrate of anything in the past few months. But its winrate is only about 53%.
Yes, it can highroll pretty hard. Yes, it's actually a good deck now. No, it's not as OP as people think it is.
Examples of decks that beat it:
Elise Spiders - mono-shurima is actually listed on Runeterra.Ar as the best matchup currently for spiders. Spiders deck has a 1.5% playrate and a 55% winrate overall - no doubt thanks to the easy wins from all the mono-shurima players
Azir/Irelia - mono-shurima is also listed as the best matchup for this deck as well - this deck that got nerfed hard in the past and fell off the scene for a long time. Well, it's back, and it's eating mono-shurima for breakfast. Azirelia's playrate is at 2% and winrate is at 57%.
So, yeah, guys. Don't fall into the trap of the alarmist hype that mono-Shurima is completely broken and OP. It just isn't.
Side note - I played 5 games with the deck in Plat 2 and lost literally all 5 games. Never touching it again. Time to play decks that beat up on it, so I can get back my lost LP. Also, just for fun in normals, I played an old poro deck with Fabled Poro and such, focused on building a buffed board of all types of poros, and I queued into mono-Shurima all three games so far, and I completely wrecked my opponent in all of those games - with poros. Seriously, the deck can't be that good if it folds to poros. (Edit - though, to be fair, I did include two copies of Aftershock in there, and those did have an impact on two of my wins. In one of the wins, the opponent put their Xerath into a landmark, preparing to level him when he popped out the next turn. Aftershock ended that dream, and the game. In the other game, the opponent didn't bother to spellshield the Sundisc, so I killed it. Third game, I just beat him the normal way.)
This card would work well in a Yasuo Leona deck, for sure. Not sure that pairing has any hope of being viable, but if it does - this card goes in there.
In general, though, a fast speed double stun will definitely get played a fair bit, no question. Aphelios control decks will almost certainly be showing up, and they will 100% run this card.
This is very similar to Swipe in HS Druid. It definitely has the chance to be quite good. Being slow is a definite drawback, but it's still a very interesting and potentially quite good spell.
I'm with TTG on this one. Slow spells need to bring something special to the table in order to be playable. This is not special enough to earn a card slot in most decks.
I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to grasp this, but Rumble is a Mecha-Yordle and he's not a foe (thus he's an ally). His text reads "I've seen allied mecha-yordles deal 12+ damage." He himself is an allied mecha-yordle, so he definitely counts himself.
If it were meant to exclude himself, it would read, "I've seen OTHER allied mecha-yordles deal 12+ damage."
You can totally mess around with Deep if you want, as long as you are OK with losing some games.
As for getting a couple copies of Maokai, as long as you get your weekly vault to level 10, you will have two champion wildcards in two weeks, and that will finish off your 3 copies.
I can agree with all said. Yeah, in MtG it's all about impact when we talk about control decks. All and all my view on the game could be wrong, which prolly is and I can't say otherwise because what I know and what I've seen so far is not the greatest data base for comparison tbf. But still, I can enjoy a first win of the day struggling with Karma /Sol or some retarded greedy comp up until I get a better understanding of the game. The game is clearly designed to be a minions clash with combat tricks and you either let it resolve or you interfere so, yeah I guess for some people it's better than trying to play around board clear or big minion with potential to turn the game around. MtG besides MonoBitch as they used to call it back in the days, I enjoy most of Izzet decks being burn control with insane card draw or mill, or good old 2021 Dragon Control. So,ya. As I said LoR is a decent game, lovely animations sometimes a bit too long but hey, its fancy. Design is overall good quality in terms of mechanics and core values of the game when it comes down to interactive gameplay. So, I guess I am on a quest to come up with a greedy 30% win rate at best deck, haha! I get it that some people will react negative to what I said, coming from a different universe where we play broken cards upon broken cards to defeat even more broken cards yeah, playing for board and buffing units will be a bit strange. Watching players shiver and calculate how much to advance the board state waiting for "Wrath of God" ( Still legal card btw in MtG ) is just other type of fun, but also gives you time and slows down the pace of the game overall because if you overcommit you are kind of done. So,ya. I can't say that I hate the game, or that the game is just aggro, as I said there are combo decks, burn decks, some midrange but ya in general minions royal. So take it with a grain of salt. Also, I do listen to advice and I do take suggestions if they are explained stupid enough for someone like me who is obviously ignorant af. Before I forget, board development in LoR is slower compared to MtG, not that it's slow in LoR. :)
P.S Here is my definition of aggro for ya lad , "aggressive deck which attempts to win the game through persistent, quick damage dealing." Just saying.
Stay safe, stay sexy and may the Doomskar be with ya!
This is actually an excellent response to both my post and Trifarian General's post.
I officially apologize for the tone of my most recent response above. It was definitely harsher than necessary, and rude besides. So, my apologies for that.
Back to the original topic, I actually had another thought that hasn't been mentioned yet, in terms of "attrition"-style decks in LoR. Have you investigated Maokai yet? And I don't mean in a deep deck. I mean in a mill deck. They are very niche and barely ever used, but I HAVE seen them.
Side note - I have never played MtG, but I did play Eternal for quite a while, which is just about as close as you can get to being a MtG clone without being the same game. Generally in games like Eternal (and probably also MtG) aggro is kinda non-viable unless it's completely broken beyond all imagining. When your opponent can remove your units as fast as you play them, for the same mana/card cost or even 2-for-1 or 3-for-1, then aggro just can't ever get started (again, unless it's absurdly fast). In Eternal, the only viable aggro decks would be winning on turn 3 or 4. I assume it's similar for MtG. But LoR is not designed like those games, so aggro looks different here.
...you are zerged down by aggro... in MtG aggro is a whole different beast compared to LoR it hurts wayyyyy more waaaay faster. ... Once again thank you for the suggestions I guess the game is just designed to be a fast paced aggro fest.
I agree, this is clearly not a game for your tastes.
But I really have to hope that you realize the extreme inconsistencies of the way that you're complaining about the game design of LoR. Such as the one I highlighted here.
According to direct quotes from your own writing, LoR manages to have aggro that is way too slow ... but also fast. And every deck is aggro as well, unless it's a pathetic attempt to be sub-par control. Best I can figure, based on inferences from what you've said in your posts, you define aggro in LoR as ... basically anything that relies on units to deal damage. Which is probably the worst definition of aggro I've ever seen anyone imply for any game.
If you took the time to actually understand the classifications in LoR, you would realize that barely any actual aggro decks are even in the meta right now (unless you're playing ranked ladder way down in the iron and bronze area, in which case it IS mostly just aggro ... because new players can't build good decks that aren't aggro). And incidentally, it's pretty clear that you haven't learned the depth of subtlety to how to play control cards in LoR. You should never be in a situation where playing a board wipe results in your opponent refilling immediately. It that happens to you, you are not properly utilizing the "pass turn" mechanic, which forces your opponent to either do nothing, or to develop more units into your board wipe.
P.S. - I'm not a fan of someone creating a thread that pretends to ask for advice, when the person has, in fact, already completely made up their mind and will not listen seriously to anything helpful that anyone suggests. And despite the fact that you're not listening to suggestions, I'll still offer one last one - don't even bother to keep doing dailies in LoR. You clearly hate the game, so why torture yourself?
I'll give this a whirl, I think! Very cool combination of ways to get Ashe leveled.
Just one suggestion - probably the Flash Freeze should be Three Sisters instead, for the flexibility.
I completely agree about the removal of burst passing. It was a silly loophole that is much better closed off.
Yes, but given that Ashe/Leblanc is nearly good right now, in the current state, I have to think it will be VERY good after getting buffed. Possibly too much so.
In any case, my gut feeling is that Ashe/Leblanc midrange frostbite is gonna be back, and I wanna be on the bandwagon right from the start.
I immediately notice that both Ashe and LeBlanc are getting buffed. Time to dust off that deck and use it to frostbite all those Pantheons!
Head on over to Mastering Runeterra to see the latest meta report for the first couple days after the patch.
It's a fascinating picture of what is good and what is not good currently in the meta.
Note that the playrate of Mono-Shurima is decreasing at this point, so it's nothing to be concerned about.
The rest of the meta has a lot of interesting decks and it's pretty diverse. So far, I'd say Riot did a great job with this balance patch!
You seem to be under the impression that people here are complaining. We are not complaining. We are analyzing the situation that is developing, nothing more.
Speaking of which, new data is in, and the playrate of Mono-Shurima is plummeting, as I said it would. Numbers for the last two days:
Playrate down to 13%. Winrate down to just a shade over 50%.
Meanwhile, Riven/Viktor is up to 10% playrate with a 60% winrate.
I don't think people are nearly as upset as you think they are. Mono-Shurima can be explosive against basically any deck, if they get a good draw. So if that happens to a specific person, they might get upset, regardless of their deck. Also, when mono-Shurima wins, they force you to watch a mini-movie of level up animations, which is another thing that annoys people.
In point of fact, before this patch, the thing most people WERE complaining about was Bandle City, due to the exact situation you're describing. No one is upset about "card advantage" decks being beaten by Mono-Shurima. I'd imagine they are quite happy about the disappearance of Bandle City Value decks.
Sometimes, I feel like you invent controversy out of thin air.
This is a subjective thing. None of the "counters" are getting higher than about a 2% playrate. Since mono-shurima has a 23% playrate, the mono-shurima players have a much higher chance of a mirror than a counter, honestly.
And that's the biggest reason it will continue moving to 50% winrate as the playrate increases.
I also use Runeterra AR, but I use the stats page, and set the time window to the last two days, and that's how I get a playrate of 23% with a winrate of 51.6% over 13k matches.
Stats page for Runeterra AR
Update: The playrate according to Runeterra.Ar is now up to almost 23%. Winrate is down to 51.6%.
It's novel. People like making their opponents watch a movie. It will fade once people realize it's not really that good actually.
Meanwhile, Azirelia is a real deck again. And it kicks the crap outta mono-Shurima.
The stats are up on Runeterra.Ar, and I have some personal experience with it as well. The site's data shows about 8.5k games played, making it a whopping 17% playrate over the past two days, which is pretty insane. About double the playrate of anything in the past few months. But its winrate is only about 53%.
Yes, it can highroll pretty hard. Yes, it's actually a good deck now. No, it's not as OP as people think it is.
Examples of decks that beat it:
So, yeah, guys. Don't fall into the trap of the alarmist hype that mono-Shurima is completely broken and OP. It just isn't.
Side note - I played 5 games with the deck in Plat 2 and lost literally all 5 games. Never touching it again. Time to play decks that beat up on it, so I can get back my lost LP. Also, just for fun in normals, I played an old poro deck with Fabled Poro and such, focused on building a buffed board of all types of poros, and I queued into mono-Shurima all three games so far, and I completely wrecked my opponent in all of those games - with poros. Seriously, the deck can't be that good if it folds to poros. (Edit - though, to be fair, I did include two copies of Aftershock in there, and those did have an impact on two of my wins. In one of the wins, the opponent put their Xerath into a landmark, preparing to level him when he popped out the next turn. Aftershock ended that dream, and the game. In the other game, the opponent didn't bother to spellshield the Sundisc, so I killed it. Third game, I just beat him the normal way.)
This card would work well in a Yasuo Leona deck, for sure. Not sure that pairing has any hope of being viable, but if it does - this card goes in there.
In general, though, a fast speed double stun will definitely get played a fair bit, no question. Aphelios control decks will almost certainly be showing up, and they will 100% run this card.
This is very similar to Swipe in HS Druid. It definitely has the chance to be quite good. Being slow is a definite drawback, but it's still a very interesting and potentially quite good spell.
I'm with TTG on this one. Slow spells need to bring something special to the table in order to be playable. This is not special enough to earn a card slot in most decks.
I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to grasp this, but Rumble is a Mecha-Yordle and he's not a foe (thus he's an ally). His text reads "I've seen allied mecha-yordles deal 12+ damage." He himself is an allied mecha-yordle, so he definitely counts himself.
If it were meant to exclude himself, it would read, "I've seen OTHER allied mecha-yordles deal 12+ damage."
OK, since no one else has done it yet, I'll be that guy ...
"Hey, what the heck, Riot! Still no love for Katerina?!?!? OMG, she's been needing a buff or a rework for more than a year at least."
This is correct. Rumble counts himself, 100%.
You can totally mess around with Deep if you want, as long as you are OK with losing some games.
As for getting a couple copies of Maokai, as long as you get your weekly vault to level 10, you will have two champion wildcards in two weeks, and that will finish off your 3 copies.
By the way, in that mill deck, the Ferros Financier can fetch you some needed tools, such as Trueshot Barrage, The Ruination, more copies of Vengeance, or even Atrocity if you have a big Viego on the board.
This is actually an excellent response to both my post and Trifarian General's post.
I officially apologize for the tone of my most recent response above. It was definitely harsher than necessary, and rude besides. So, my apologies for that.
Back to the original topic, I actually had another thought that hasn't been mentioned yet, in terms of "attrition"-style decks in LoR. Have you investigated Maokai yet? And I don't mean in a deep deck. I mean in a mill deck. They are very niche and barely ever used, but I HAVE seen them.
Something like this maybe.
Side note - I have never played MtG, but I did play Eternal for quite a while, which is just about as close as you can get to being a MtG clone without being the same game. Generally in games like Eternal (and probably also MtG) aggro is kinda non-viable unless it's completely broken beyond all imagining. When your opponent can remove your units as fast as you play them, for the same mana/card cost or even 2-for-1 or 3-for-1, then aggro just can't ever get started (again, unless it's absurdly fast). In Eternal, the only viable aggro decks would be winning on turn 3 or 4. I assume it's similar for MtG. But LoR is not designed like those games, so aggro looks different here.
I agree, this is clearly not a game for your tastes.
But I really have to hope that you realize the extreme inconsistencies of the way that you're complaining about the game design of LoR. Such as the one I highlighted here.
According to direct quotes from your own writing, LoR manages to have aggro that is way too slow ... but also fast. And every deck is aggro as well, unless it's a pathetic attempt to be sub-par control. Best I can figure, based on inferences from what you've said in your posts, you define aggro in LoR as ... basically anything that relies on units to deal damage. Which is probably the worst definition of aggro I've ever seen anyone imply for any game.
If you took the time to actually understand the classifications in LoR, you would realize that barely any actual aggro decks are even in the meta right now (unless you're playing ranked ladder way down in the iron and bronze area, in which case it IS mostly just aggro ... because new players can't build good decks that aren't aggro). And incidentally, it's pretty clear that you haven't learned the depth of subtlety to how to play control cards in LoR. You should never be in a situation where playing a board wipe results in your opponent refilling immediately. It that happens to you, you are not properly utilizing the "pass turn" mechanic, which forces your opponent to either do nothing, or to develop more units into your board wipe.
P.S. - I'm not a fan of someone creating a thread that pretends to ask for advice, when the person has, in fact, already completely made up their mind and will not listen seriously to anything helpful that anyone suggests. And despite the fact that you're not listening to suggestions, I'll still offer one last one - don't even bother to keep doing dailies in LoR. You clearly hate the game, so why torture yourself?