Neutral anti-Reno tech

  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Swamp 375 619 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    EDIT:


    OR:

    FYI: Casts When Drawn always draws you another card. It never denies card draw. Just look at how Bomb works.

    The idea is to have a neutral, playable but sub-optimal (maybe 4/3 would be better?) anti-Reno tech, that is not a game sealer against Reno, but it can buy precious turns (similar concept to Loatheb). Indeed, the shuffled cards are 1-costed, which means they can be cleared by Skulking Geist.

     

    ALTERNATE, with a drawback for you (maybe this one should be called Nasty Cantrip instead)

    Also notice it cannot prevent an early Zephrys the Great, because of its cost, and it's not an optimal body, nor a value generator for you (unlike Beneath the Grounds). Just a time-buyer against an incoming Highlander card, and barely a decent card anywhere else (similarly to Acidic Swamp Ooze, or Kezan Mystic).

     

    • What do you think?
    • Is the version with enemy 1/1 taunt more balanced and/or fun to encounter? Especially in Wild?
    • Or shuffle just 2x instead of 3x?
    • Maybe 4/3 would be more in-line with a tech card? 
    4
  • Alfi's Avatar Squirtle 235 86 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Non-duplicate cards are not a problem, especially in standard

    -=alfi=-

    0
  • UVE's Avatar Uther 180 33 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I guess that the next expansion needs a new neutral counter against highlander decks.

    When K&C was released I used to put The Darkness in my wild decks to counter Renodecks and Spiteful Summoner.

     

    By The Holy Light!

    0
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Swamp 375 619 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago
    Quote From UVE

    I guess that the next expansion needs a new neutral counter against highlander decks.

    When K&C was released I used to put The Darkness in my wild decks to counter Renodecks and Spiteful Summoner.

     

    In what kind of decks did you use it? How did it perform on ladder?

    My concern with the darkness is that it is in extreme card, not really fitting as a tech...

    0
  • Pezman's Avatar Magma Rager 355 199 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I actually like this idea. It would just be an interesting tech card you could throw in if you were facing a lot of highlanders. Not powerful, and not terrible. I think having the cantrips do something would be more interesting, whether it's the suggested 1/1 taunt, or a random 1/1, or random 1 damage, something so that the card does more than just attack highlander synergy. Nice idea!

    "Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted

    5 15580 731 5

    2
  • Aenarion's Avatar 110 32 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I like the first idea, maybe with a 4/3 body as you suggested. I think it would be Epic if made by Blizzard though.

    Bring back old Warrior Control.

    1
  • Ethardoth's Avatar Pikachu 65 18 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I feel that the first version wouls be very strong in general, not just anti-Reno. It potentially denies opponent's draw three times and would be frustrating to play against. I like the summoning version better (with maybe 4/3 statline), but if you really wanted just anti-reno, maybe you could add "Draw a card." to a do nothing card, plus 1 health, or +1 spell damage (since it's a mage, some flavour, also Ogre Magi stats :) )

    0
  • Painkiller1724's Avatar 110 56 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago
    Quote From Ethardoth

    I feel that the first version wouls be very strong in general, not just anti-Reno. It potentially denies opponent's draw three times and would be frustrating to play against. I like the summoning version better (with maybe 4/3 statline), but if you really wanted just anti-reno, maybe you could add "Draw a card." to a do nothing card, plus 1 health, or +1 spell damage (since it's a mage, some flavour, also Ogre Magi stats :) )

    Or maybe shuffle cards in BOTH decks?

    1
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Swamp 245 279 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I feel like it's kinda petty to print a card to print a pure hate card that does nothing other than kneecap a specific archetype.

    I'd much prefer a reprint of The Darkness in some form. You know...a card that has its own purpose and isn't specifically restricted to countering a single decktype (while still obviously being designed for that)

    I also don't think a card like this would even see play, mainly because most of the Highlander cards aren't even that much of an issue. You can't just play this on curve and be like "suck it, your deck's unplayable now" because if they draw into 2 scrolls over the course of the game it was a wasted effort.

    You effectively will have to predict at which point they'd want to play their respective Highlander (or Zephrys) which, in most cases will most likely be in an agressive deck that wants to prevent a Reno or Zephrys clear...and I doubt aggressive decks can afford an udnerstatted 4-drop that they actually need to draw into in time to get a benefit out of.

    HIghlander decks are just a bit too consistent at the moment to really be hampered by this...just play Bomb Warrior if you want a counter.

    3
  • Ethardoth's Avatar Pikachu 65 18 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Well, there are already specific counters to other decks as well. I think it would be an interesting card to exist as an option. Yes, most likely it would be not worthy to run them purely for anti-reno if they are going to be fair and balanced, but the suggested design looks playable in vacuum and more interesting than a lot of cards already printed.

    1
  • Zwane's Avatar Wizard 185 246 Posts Joined 06/04/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I would rather have a counter against those upgraded hero powers...like that card that disables the hero powers for both players.

    0
  • DoubleSummon's Avatar 355 393 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago
    Quote From Ethardoth

    I feel that the first version wouls be very strong in general, not just anti-Reno. It potentially denies opponent's draw three times and would be frustrating to play against. I like the summoning version better (with maybe 4/3 statline), but if you really wanted just anti-reno, maybe you could add "Draw a card." to a do nothing card, plus 1 health, or +1 spell damage (since it's a mage, some flavour, also Ogre Magi stats :) )

    Casts when drawn draw an additional card so it doesn't deny drawns.. Just like with Bombs.. 

    I think the card can be saftly be 3 mana 4/3.. 

    Also dedicated counters are boring it's better if it does something else as well. 

    1
  • AliRadicali's Avatar 225 378 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    I think I prefer cards where shuffling cards into the enemy deck is actually a benefit on its own rather than a straight up anti-reno design. Think of Beneath the Grounds or The Darkness, or for that matter warrior bombs.

    Now granted, neither of those two cards are particularly good, but the concept in itself is decent: compare to Fal'dorei Strider, which is basically Beneath the Grounds on a 4/4 body.

    I'd much rather have a playable card that happens to be super spicy against Reno decks than one that is basically useless except for hosing reno. For example you could have an overstatted minion (2 mana 3/3, say) that shuffles 3 1/1 hunters into the opponent's deck that get played when drawn, comparable to the 'hunted' cycle from MtG's Ravnica set.

    1
  • Ethardoth's Avatar Pikachu 65 18 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 week, 3 days ago

    Oh, I'm sorry, I never noticed they changed it! It was with draw a card before, thank you for pointing out. Then it is definitely more than fair card, lower mana could work better.

    0
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Swamp 375 619 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    I feel like it's kinda petty to print a card to print a pure hate card that does nothing other than kneecap a specific archetype.

    I'd much prefer a reprint of The Darkness in some form. You know...a card that has its own purpose and isn't specifically restricted to countering a single decktype (while still obviously being designed for that)

    I also don't think a card like this would even see play, mainly because most of the Highlander cards aren't even that much of an issue. You can't just play this on curve and be like "suck it, your deck's unplayable now" because if they draw into 2 scrolls over the course of the game it was a wasted effort.

    You effectively will have to predict at which point they'd want to play their respective Highlander (or Zephrys) which, in most cases will most likely be in an agressive deck that wants to prevent a Reno or Zephrys clear...and I doubt aggressive decks can afford an udnerstatted 4-drop that they actually need to draw into in time to get a benefit out of.

    HIghlander decks are just a bit too consistent at the moment to really be hampered by this...just play Bomb Warrior if you want a counter.

    I'm not sure of Standard, but the average Reno deck in Wild would be vulnerable to Aggro, without Reno Jackson. Not weak, but vulnerable. They should include more healing in their decks, if such a tech existed.

    Anyway, i wouldn't mind a Neutral Beneath the Grounds on a stick. 

    My idea was a specific tech, because i was afraid that a purposeful card would be too easy to throw in a deck as a tech, while i wanted it to be a choice one has to make, to avoid making Reno decks unplayable.

    And the whole purpose of Neutral, is indeed it was meant as a tech. I didn't mean to counter Highlander, just generating a vulnerability that all decks could decide to equip.

    1
  • Horus's Avatar Lava Coil 480 451 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    I thought it was the only purpose of running a pair of Weasel Tunneler, or for class restriction, say a pair of Excavated Evil to counter even synergy and singleton as well.

    '' When I was your age, Pluto was a planet. '' -Unknown

    -1
  • Pullanisu's Avatar Gul'dan 160 71 Posts Joined 06/18/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

    Reno Jackson

    Kazakus

    My faves!

    You can beat me but I will still yeet your skeet

    0
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Swamp 375 619 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago
    Quote From Pullanisu

    Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

    No, sorry.

    It's a horribly unreliable coinflip that only few decks (namely, Control and/or other Reno decks) can afford to include in their lists.

    That is not a "Neutral Anti-Reno tech". At all.

     

     

    1
  • Pullanisu's Avatar Gul'dan 160 71 Posts Joined 06/18/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS
    Quote From Pullanisu

    Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

    No, sorry.

    It's a horribly unreliable coinflip that only few decks (namely, Control and/or other Reno decks) can afford to include in their lists.

    That is not a "Neutral Anti-Reno tech". At all.

     

     Not my fault you don't want to use 2 of the best neutral tech cards against Reno in your decks :)

     

    Reno Jackson

    Kazakus

    My faves!

    You can beat me but I will still yeet your skeet

    -2
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Swamp 375 619 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago
    Quote From Pullanisu
    Quote From RavenSunHS
    Quote From Pullanisu

    Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

    No, sorry.

    It's a horribly unreliable coinflip that only few decks (namely, Control and/or other Reno decks) can afford to include in their lists.

    That is not a "Neutral Anti-Reno tech". At all.

     

     Not my fault you don't want to use 2 of the best neutral tech cards against Reno in your decks :)

     

    C'mon, enough with this BS. You are so obviously biased that it's not even funny.

    I made this as a serious thread, open to serious discussion about how such a card as those i proposed (or similar) could be balanced.

    And i repeat, the purpose is NOT to lockdown Renodecks with a card, not more than Loatheb can lockdown Spelldecks.

    If you can't stand to discuss it properly, it's sufficient that you stay away from it. ;)

    1
  • MalcolmReynolds's Avatar HearthStationeer 470 576 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    I really don't like that guy, he is too OP as he is. I don't know if you intended it to work like this, but you are potentially denying your opponent 3 draws, which is huge. unless you are playing tons of draw cards in your deck, then not drawing your initial card is an amazing disadvantage. and you are not really losing much by playing a 4 mana 4/4

    also, as yourprivatenightmare mentioned above, it is a little silly to print a card that has no other purpose than to counter a single archetype. It would be better to print a card that can do something on its own no matter what you are playing against, but is also a counter to highlander cards.

    so all in all, I like the idea, but the card is not very good as it is.

    Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.

    0
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Swamp 375 619 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Looking at how cards like Nerubian Unraveler and Mojomaster Zihi are balanced, this is another alternative for such a tech. Notice that setting its cost at (6) grants that both Kazakus and Zephrys the Great can never be countered if played on curve. Even Reno Jackson itself could still be coined on turn-5 before this tech card can act.

    PS: Casts When Drawn always draws you another card. It never denies card draw. Just look at how Bomb works.

     

     

    OR, more simply:

    2
  • LyraSilvertongue's Avatar 210 184 Posts Joined 06/01/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    MalcolmReynolds pretty much beat me to it. Shuffling non-advantageous duplicates into the opponent's deck is fine, but not allowing the opponent to draw is extremely powerful, but since HS doesn't have this mechanic most HS players don't realize how powerful that mechanic is. In Yu-Gi-Oh cards that denied card draw (notably Yata-Garasu) were banned because the mechanic basically ensures that if you have a bad turn before you were denied the card draw then you're automatically ensured you're going to have another bad turn because you have no access to any extra resources that following turn, which means when denied draw you're unlikely to catch up to what was essentially an extra turn for your opponent.

    0
  • RavenSunHS's Avatar Swamp 375 619 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Guys, have you ever faced a Bomb?

    I added PS on my posts.

    Casts When Draw always draws an additional card after autocasting. It is embedded in the meaning of the keyword.

    Otherwise Bomb Warrior would be ravaging the meta in both Wild and Standard...

    1
  • sinti's Avatar Global Moderator Honorary Explorer 525 775 Posts Joined 10/20/2018
    Posted 1 week, 2 days ago

    Since the mage is Pedantic I don't even feel bad writing this: Shuffle :p

    But card like this could be interesting. 

    ~ Have an idea? Found a bug? Let us know! ~
    ~ Join us on Discord ~

    1
  • Leave a Comment

    You must be signed in to leave a comment. Sign in here.