Ashes of Outland: Meta prediction and Class ranking

Ashes of Outland
  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 1915 4024 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    So because individual class reviews and theorycrafts take a lot of time and usually end up being pointless, I thought I'd try something more compact this time around.

    I'm gonna be ranking the 10 classes from best to worst and explain why and which decks they'll use. Before I do that I'm gonna explain some general assumptions that I base these things on:

    Overall

    So after looking at the set in its entirety and considering all the rotating stuff I came to the conclusion that there will be 3 types of decks that will succeed in the coming meta:

    -very aggressive ones

    -very defensive ones

    -those using Zephrys the Great

    the reason for this is that, aside from the addition of Demon hunter who looks to be very aggressive in general, we lose both Leeroy Jenkins and Zilliax.

    Leeroy Jenkins means that aggressive decks will have to double down on their aggression because they no longer have an easyy finisher. It also means that slower midrange decks won't have this finisher either, meaning their kill potential is severely reduced, making them weaker against both aggro and control. Finally, without Zilliax, one of the best anti-aggro and comeback tool is gone. It's actually frightening to see how many successful decks relied on being able to recover at least some health and swing the game back in their favour to win. Zilliax was the main reason why we had very few actual aggro decks and the ones we did have were average at best (for instance Face Hunter, despite having ridiculouss aggro potential, was inferior to the much slower, but far more efficient Dragon Hunter)

    The last point is that Zephrys the Great  becomes the single most effective comeback tool in the game. He allows you to heal, clear the board, deal with a minion or find lethal. As explained above, matchups will become much more polarized and having acccess to a flexible finisher or emergency fallback is probably the best thing to improve your winrate.

    These are the assumptions I'm going into this with and all my judgements below are based on them. So let's get into it:

    #1 Demon Hunter

    So let's explain this. Demon Hunter is overpowered, there is no way around it.

    However, this is absolutely necessary. When they designed a new class they not only had to put it together from scratch, but also introduce it to a completely new meta, meaning there's very little to actually build upon balance-wise. This left them with two choices:

    -make DH op and nerf them later

    -play it safe and buff them if necessary

    The second option would be downright idiotic. Buffing cards is so much harder to do than nerfing. Basically, if Demon Hunter turned out to weak they'd have to guess which cards would improve their performance if buffed. NOt only that, a weak class would see significantly less play, meaning less data to go off.

    Instead, they chose the best option and just made the class clearly busted. This way they can accurately assess where the intended strengths and weaknesses are and nerf them accordingly.

    That being said, I think the most aggressive Demon Hunter builds will be the most successful, both initially and in the long run. Kayn Sunfury makes it so you can reliably finish your enemies and don't get walled off by Taunts that you can't remove. Skull of Gul'dan is just broken in general´and will probably be the first card on the nerf block.

    Other archetypes like Token and Big Demons will probably pale in comparison, but still see play somewhere down the line, depending on how the meta develops and which cards get the nerf hammer.

    Highlander DH is also an options that has been experimented with. I'm personally not convinced that it's better than just running all your good cards twice, but as explained above, Zephrys is pretty nuts.

    #2 Paladin

    Paladin is an interesting case, because they come into this expansion with basically nothing, but received a set so strong it's on par with K&C Warlock.

    Librams are nuts and will be the defining shell for Paladin for a while (until something even better comes around). The question is how to optimally use the Libram package?

    Some people are adamant about Pure Paladin finally becoming a thing, but I don't really believe it myself. The thing about Librams is that they work well with a select number of Neutral cards that I really don't want to pass up on, mainly Wild Pyromancer, Argent Squire and the new Replicat-o-tron. The upside of Pure Paladin is the tempo boost fromLightforged Zealot and the reload of Lightforged Crusader. However, I don't think either of those are necessary. Lady Liadrin is the only reload you'll need, and Crusader tends to fill your hand with clunky stuff, which has anti-synergy with Liadrin herself. Zealot is more appealing, but only really makes sense in a deck that tries to put on pressure, which i don't think Paladin needs to be. In this new meta, Healing will be a very powerful tool to stop aggro (especially DH, because they bypass taunts). As such you can actually sacrifice tempo and swing back with Libram of Justice and Libram of Hope as well as generally good cards like Amber Watcher. Another reason is the fact that Pure Paladin doesn't really have a good sticky 1-drop to capitalize on Hand of A'dal which is the main reason I wanna run neutral 1-drops like Argent Squire or Murmy

    Just in general, Paladin has received one of the best lategame value engines currently available while also having a very solid earlygame package.

    Another option is Murloc Paladin. Murgur Murgurgle is just great in general and will probably see play outside of tribal decks. Imprisoned Sungill is very underated as delayed triple murloc ready to receive buffs  (and a good way to play around removal and still have a board). Felfin Navigator speaks for itself.

    Highlander Paladin, despite using Zephrys, is probably too slow (and can't use Librams as well as regular Pally, so I feel that rules them out by default)

    this might be the meta were Control Paladin finally shines.

    #3 Hunter

    Hunter is here because of Dragon Hunter and Face Hunter, not necessarily because of the new set. Both decks lose effectively nothing and gain EVERYTHING from Zilliax rotating. Face Hunter is probably the best counter to aggressive Demon Hunter, who has some real trouble dealing with Leper Gnomes and Secrets. Dragon Hunter on the other hand will probably work decently all around and not lose that much to decks with healing or taunts because Rotnest Drake is busted.

    Highlander Hunter will be around in some capacity, but I'm not sure how strong they'll be. Once again, Zephrys might pull through, but overall I'm not sure if Hunter can wait until turn 7 and 9 for the big powerspikes.

    The new Hunter cards are definitely interesting but I fear the might be a tad too slow. Handbuffing is historically awkward, and even when efficient options are available. Zixor, Apex Predator might be good enough to carry the archetype, but it heavily depends on how common Rogue is in the meta because boy oh boy will Flik Skyshiv fuck you up.

    I think there might also be a way to play Beastmaster Leoroxx efficiently by runnig King Krush and Octosari, and using them as a massive tempo boost and reload in some sort of midrange deck. You don't actually need to summon all 3 beasts for it to be worth it.

    Finally I wanna point towards Vereesa Windrunner and say that despite her not having seen much play in recent times she's still a very powerful effect that has also received indirect support via Corrosive Breath and older cards have a tendency to be forgotten even when they could potentially shine.

    #4 Rogue

    Now I'm gonna go out and bring you a very bold and controversial prediction here: I don't think Galakrond Rogue will be very good.

    Yes, I'm being serious, I think that what is currently one of the best decks in the game will fall almost completely out of relevance. The reason being that Galakrond Rogue is VERY SLOW. We've kinda gotten used to the meta being a lot slower in the last year, thanks to Zilliax and a few other tools that allowed classes with limited defensive options to have an answer to aggressive decks. This is no longer the case.

    Galakrond Rogue depends on being able to play Invokers early and mostly just respond to stuff while shitting out lackeys for tempo and value. Outiside of that it relies on Heistbaron Togwaggle and Galakrond, the Nightmare for the big swing turns. HOwever, Demon Hunter won't let you get to those turns...like ever. At the same time heavy control decks will just simply outheal or outtaunt you, which is even more relevant now that the Leeroy + Shadowstep burst is gone.

    This doesn't mean that Rogue is out of the game though. One of the main benefits of Galakrond was big draw through consistent Galakronds and Togwaggles. This was necessary because Rogue didn't really have good enough draw outside of them (Neither Sprint nor Gadgetzan Auctioneer are particularly great anymore). However, we have perfect substitutes these days with Dirty Tricks and Greyheart Sage. Not only that, but both Secret and Stealth Rogue seems to go in a much more promising direction tempo wise, even though in the theorycrafting streams it seemed a bit subpar, which I feel was due to suboptimal deck building (for fuck's sake Kibler, you're playing an Aggro deck, you need to run Eviscerate)

    Overall the future of Rogue is a bit uncertain, but just the sheer amount of good cards they received leads me to believe that they'll worm their way into at least tier 2...as they always do.

    #5 Warlock

    In another bold prediction I'll claim that Warlock is actually looking pretty good. They already benefit a lot from Leeroy leaving as we speak and the have at least decent healing options (especially [Hearthstone Card (Sacrifical Pact) Not Found], which hurts Demon Hunters a lot and also any other aggro deck, because they all run Frenzied Felwing).

    Galakrond Warlock will probably stick around in some capacity. If I'm not mistaken Blizzard has removed dormant minions from the random summoning pool (or maybe it's just The Darkness and I have false info) so the card won't be significantly worse.

    However, what I am really looking forward to are two "new" archetypes, namely being Control Handlock with Shadow Council as well as Plot Twist Warlock.

    Let me explain:

    I very much agree with Trump (no, not the orange one, the one with barcode for hair) and his assessment that Shadow Council is a legit play in a control deck that mostly draws cards and accumulates reactive tools. Essentially you'd be playing Embiggen Druid but with control tools. Additionally you can set up your Imprisoned Scrap Imp to buff your hand even further, and since we now have a decent amount of proactive demons (or just ones with taunt) you should always have something useful to play after using Council. As said above, Control will have to go very defensive, and Warlock doesn't really have simple lategame win conditions, so this might genuinely be a good way to take over the board in the midgame, as well as having a realistic answer to other control decks. Do not underestimate the power of dropping overbuffed minions turn after turn.

    Plot Twist Warlock would be a twist indeed, but far from an unrealistic one. Aranasi Broodmother gives us more heal, which is great, Enhanced Dreadlord is just good in general and a great target off Fel Lord Betrug. Even better, we get Kanrethad Ebonlocke who gives us a legit lategame powerbomb that will most likely summon taunts, lifesteal or another Betrug (who is great because we also run Supreme Archaeology). we can even double up on Ebonlocke if we summon him from Betrug. If all that still isn't enough you can run Zzeraku the Warped and combine him with fatigue damage to create a last ditch effort (or just run Chef Nomi,  idk, whatever works). AlsoKeli'dan the Breaker is pretty lit and makes it so we don't necessarily need two copies of Siphon Soul or Twisting Nether

    Overall I think there will be some form of Control Warlock, if only because Sac Pact beats Demon Hunters hard.

    Oh yeah, and Zoo is also a thing I guess...they didn't really get much support. Don't believe in the Discard hype, it sucks.

    #6 Warrior

    Now I'm really uncertain about the actual strength of Warrior. They lose A LOT. Both [Hearthstone Card (Eternium Reaver) Not Found] and Town Crier were essential in taking the early game, and now we only have....Imprisoned Gan'arg...yay. Also the loss of Acolyte of Pain is crippling.

    I don't think Galakrond Warrior as we know it can stick around. You were already at the mercy of drawing your Galakrond and Invokers in time, and now you basically lose half your draw. Battle Rage might have to be a genuine buildaround if the deck wants to be playable.

    However, not all is lost, because the taunt package could pull through. Kargath Bladefist is a great recovery tool so I'm fairly certain some form of defensive Warrior will be played.

    On the other hand we also have Enrage Warrior, who still has Bloodsworn Mercenary, which is still busted.

    I don't see Warrior taking the lead on anything, but rather them responding to whatever the meta throws at them.

    If everything fails, Pirate Warrior can probably do something decent. Face is the place.

    #7 Mage

    Much like Warrior, Mage could go either way. Spell-only Mage looks to be garbage. It's an RNG fest and probably a fun deck to play, but there's no way it actually gets above 50% winrate. The biggest problem is the fact that MAge has so little efficient draw that it's hard to capitalize on Incanter's Flow. Arcane Intellect is alright, but just not enough and generated spells aren't nearly as good.

    This pretty much leaves only Highlander Mage, which still has a bunch of powerful cards and the new Evocation to keep them afloat. The main problem is the rotation of Luna's Pocket Galaxy. this was the card that actually won game, because while MAge would usually just go even normally, being able to play a bunch of big guys for 1-mana was how they overwhelmed opponents in the lategame. Now you just play a bunch of big dudes one by one and see them removed by Control decks or ignored by Midrange ones. I'm not familiar enough with the deck to judge it accurately, but I think it will be so much weaker without Luna's.

    There are however at least two other Archetypes that I think might see some resurgence. One is Big Spell Mage, which got Deep Freeze as another way to swing the board, and the other is...yes...Cyclone Mage. I can't tell if either of those is nearly good enough, but I can say that Starscryer helps them both A LOT.

    Also there is technically a version of Cyclone Mage that uses Incanter's Flow and Gadgetzan Auctioneer to do....something, I'm not sure what yet.

    Mage will be "fine", but don't expect them to have much of an impact.

    #8 Druid

    Druid is the prime example of a class that will probably be really strong later in the year, but so far we only have the set-up without the payoff.

    Embiggen Druid sounds like it would stick around, but I'm skeptical, mainly because of Demon Hunter. Embiggen Druid is very slow early if they don't get the explosive early with Strength in Numbers and Breath of Dreams. This means that DH can set up on you and punch face and by the time you get a big taunt out they just play Maiev Shadowsong or Kayn Sunfury and sm0rc you to death.

    The deck could still be a thing thanks to "Evasive" being a really powerful keyword against Control decks relying on spell removal, but I think they'll be much worse because of their polarized matchup spread.

    Quest Druid behaves similarly. They didn't really get any new tools and they are still as slow as ever, which will lead aggro decks to exploit them. Steel Beetle could be key to surviving long enough to turn the game around, but I don't believe the deck gets any better. Ysiel Windsingercould be pretty strong in the future, but we don't really have the spells for her yet.

    Imprisoned Satyr could be a real sleeper (heh) hit. I'm not entirely sure on the mechanic, but I believe the Satyr awakens before you draw at the start of your turn, making it very easy to set up, especially if your deck is thin on minions anyways. Moreoever, you can just play both Satyrs at once (or over two turns) and enable some strong combos (currently Malygos + double Germination for an easy 32 damage burst with Moonfire...or even use Elise the Enlightened). The main problem is that Ramp combo druid will be too slow and too easily rushed down. The more combo piececs you include the less consistent your deck will be and Quest Druid lives and dies by its consistency.

    On the other side there's the potential for Spell token Druid. Most of the token summoners are spells and Glowfly Swarm is nuts. Fungal Fortunes could be used with a very minimal minion package (Keeper Stalladris and [Hearthstone Card (Goru the Might Tree) Not Found] is waht I'm talking about mostly) so there might be something here. Probably won't be a very consistent deck though.

    #9 Priest

    Poor Priest. We got the class overhaul we always wanted and it changed very little....at least for now. Yeah, maybe removing ALL card draw from the class wasn't such a good idea. Much like Mage, I dislike the idea of trying to win off of random cards instead of actually playing what's in our deck. It doesn't help that Reliquary of Souls is by far the worst Prime in this expansion and will probably see more play in a different class (more about that later).

    Rez Priest will stick around, but will be so much weaker. Zerek's Cloning Gallery and Zilliax are huge losses, as is Mass Hysteria. Additionally there are now so many Rez counters that even if the deck was good it would just get countered to hell. None of the new cards really support it either.

    There is a glimmer of hope though. I think Galakrond, the Unspeakable will be much better than previously seen. It's already become a decent addition to Rez Priest, but I honestly think there could be some form of Control Priest that will be able to utilize him better than ever. Let me remind you that infinite ressource generation is very powerful and there's currently nothing to compete with that (outside of LIbram Paladin, which Priest conveniently counters with Mass Dispel). Even better, some of Priest's worst minions are rotating to Wild, so you get a decent selection of playable minions to generate.

    Even further, Control Priest can actually use some of the few draw cards left, that being Cleric of Scales (which encourages a Dragon control package, which doesn't look too bad thanks to Aeon Reaver and maybe even Chronobreaker, and they also can make best use out of Kronx Dragonhoof to fetch their Galakrond and start outvaluing their opponent early.

    Finally, Priest has some very decent healing tools, which should be relevant against Aggro decks and Soul Mirror is probably one of the best swing cards for any Control deck and complements the idea of a Priest deck that tries to control with both spells and minions.

    Overall Priest is looking uncertain, but not completely dead. It's just gonna take some out of the box thinking to make it work, and even if it doesn't, there's some set up for the future.

    #10 Shaman

    We've reached the bottom. I guess this  is where The Lurker Below lives.

    Much like Paladin, Shaman enters with basically nothing...and gets nothing in return. No win conditions, and very little support to the remaining archetypes. Let's break this down:

    Aggro Overload Shaman is gone. Thunderhead was the backbone of the deck and it's gone. It still has some great cards but nothing to really hold them together.

    Quest Shaman was already dead. Mind Control Tech leaving cements that fact. Now any deck that can go wide or tall just runs over them.

    The biggest bummer is the lack of support for Control Shaman. Hagatha the Witch is gone and with her the only chance of having a decent lategame value engine. Spirit of the Frog is gone, so no more good draw. Finally, there's the lack of efficient healing. As mentioned before, healing is going to be king for control decks. Shaman now only has Witch's Brew (which is way too slow) and Walking Fountain (which is good, but comes out way too late and probably only heals for 8).

    What they do still have is a barrage of boardclears and powerful single target removal. Technically a control shell is still possible...but what for? We don't have any lategame bomb anymore. The best we can muster is Galakrond, the Tempest, who, at this point, is probaby the weakest of all the Galakronds. Compared to other lategame plays, two 8/8s with Rush aren't really that impressive anymore, and you can't really win just off of those (especially since Shudderwock is gone as well). I still believe Galakrond will be a necessary package to succeed (and who knows, maybe some of the cards will get unnerfed eventually), but we still need some sort of lategame plan...and maybe there is.

    So a fellow user on this site pointed out that in the current set, the only 1-mana legendary is Reliquary of Souls. Now look at [Hearthstone Card (Fist of Ra-den) Not Found]. Here's the deck they came up with:

    Basically the idea is to use Fist to summon a bunch of Reliquaries with 1-mana spell.

    Additionally I would consider the possibility of adding Ancestral Spirit to really double down on the idea of (awkwardly) building a huge wall of taunt lifesteals, which at least somewhat deals with the healing issue. This is where Lady Vashj comes in as an actual draw engine. Since we shuffle a bunch of primes in the deck fatigue isn't that much of an issue.

    Will this be good? Probably not. But Shaman can't exactly be picky and any lategame plan is better than none.

    Aside from this memery and any other variant of Galakrond Shaman that may or may not include a spell package we also have Murloc Shaman. This will probably be the only "good" Shaman deck, purely based on the fact that Felfin Navigator synergizes extremely well with Scargil and Underbelly Angler is still nuts.

    there's also Evolve Shaman, but....come on, have you seen the cards? You're going to be playing against opponents with big removal or ones that just trade away everything you play, so there's never going to be time to develop a board, value trade it and then evolve it. If Evolve Shaman sees any play it's because someone figured out a hidden strategy to glue it together and it's most certainly going to involve abusing Bloodlust.

    Yeah, Shaman doesn't really look that promising. It's not that their cards are terrible, but rather that everyone else is just so much better. It's gonna be hard to build a Shaman deck that actually outperforms any of the meta decks.

    Conclusion

    I already said everything I needed to. Go away now.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • MurlocBard's Avatar
    255 65 Posts Joined 11/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    highlander demon hunter  tier 1 for sure

    Translated from mrglish

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 1915 4024 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From MurlocBard

    highlander demon hunter  tier 1 for sure

    really? I think that would just hurt their consistency and force you to run a bunch of less powerful cards to fill up 30. Is Zephrys really that important to DH.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • RavenSunHS's Avatar
    Refreshment Vendor 865 1487 Posts Joined 03/27/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I agree that DH will be high on top tiers, if not at the very top, thanks to good cards and Aggro being fairly easy to figure out in the first days. Yet despite their card draw, DH have poor tools to swing back the game in their favor, if the opponent manages to play a Tempo swing turn. Which is why I expect DH to rise soon as Aggro king of the meta, then rapidly fall, as soon as people figure out how to stop them (in particular with Priests and maybe Warriors).

    At that point, Dragon Hunter will take the lead of the meta, and probably keep it for a long while.

    DH will make a comeback later with Tempo lists itself.

    Which is also why I don't think Rogue will be so low in tiers: I am fairly sure they can adjust with a faster Galakrond, and be a fair match for DH in terms of Tempo.

    I also expect some form of Galakrond Warrior to be there, considering Corsair Cache. The Rage package with Armorsmith and some extra Armor tools could be enough to repel a DH. 

    For similar reasons (ie healing and high hp), I expect a Midrange or Control Priest to be a fair threat in the meta. Lack of card draw will hold them back tho.

    Libram Paladin will be a fair deck, but I don't think that good, since Librams still need quite some setup, and you can barely play a Midrange Paladin with them, with the risk of being vulnerable to Aggro and Tempo: at that point we have higher chances of a Big Beast Midrange Hunter to be way better. Paladins have many tools but will need a lot of refinement.

    Overall, I think Mage will be the worst class, completely unplayable as soon as the meta refines

    As for Warlock, I really don't know, but I think it will follow Mage pretty closely. I don't believe Shadow Council can be a thing, as it is RANDOM stuff, and I don't think current Standard Handlock can actually find a niche in a Tempo meta, since its powertools need setup, and in the meanwhile, its defenses are poor or need setup themselves (Plague of Flames).

    Druid and Shaman may barely survive the onslaught, but low in tiers.

    1. Hunter t1

    2. DH t1

    3. Rogue t1

    4. Paladin t2

    5. Warrior t2

    6. Priest t2

    7. Druid t3

    8. Shaman t3

    9. Warlock t4 (t3 at best)

    10. Mage t5

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  • Yusuke's Avatar
    245 173 Posts Joined 06/02/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Not sure about that DH will be Tier 1, but I am totally sure about that he will be the most played class in the next weeks/months, because it's new class.

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  • dapperdog's Avatar
    Dragon Scholar 1600 3978 Posts Joined 07/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I am genuinely curious how many hours it took you to get this much up, even on those small pieces I wrote outside of this thread took around 20 minutes per article, and those were written per class.

    I will address some interesting point you made in the article, and insert my own predictions.

    Demon hunters - My prediction is that midrange and highlander dhunter will dominate the meta. Not so for aggressive dhunters, which suffers greatly from board clears.

    I dont agree that aggressive hunters will kill off any sort of dhunters. To explain, Dhunters have one aspect that make them more resistant to both face hunter and dragon hunter, and that aspect is that they can heal, and are deceptively good at it. Aldrachi Warblades will be basically in every dhunter, and can heal for 3 with 1 mana hp, and can heal for even more thanks to cards like Chaos Strike and Twin Slice, never mind Inner Demon. As we have experienced, even healing for a mere 6 points tend to rubbish face hunter 50% of the time, and here's a card that heals for 3 every turn for 3 turns, with potential to do more. Also Ashtongue Battlelord is the new psuedo zilliax for dhunters, which guarantees to at least absorb 5 damage at minimum.

    Dhunter has access to some of the best tempo cards in the game. Perhaps even better than dragon hunter's or rogue. For that reason, dragon hunter doesnt get a free win versus dhunters of any sort.

    Also, Eye Beam. This card is so disgusting that I genuinely belief this to be the main reason NOT to run a highlander dhunter.

     

    Paladin - Probably murloc paladin might make a comeback, but there is higher hopes for highlander dragon paladin. Overall, I dont think paladin can ever match up to dhunters, hunter or rogue, but will be competitive versus other classes. They will be stuck at tier 3 until further notice, is my prediction.

    Also, in my opinion healing doesnt counter aggro decks that rely on tempo. Dragon hunter still destroys dragon paladin with double Amber Watcher, even now. Its only very good versus face hunter.

     

    Hunter - This is perhaps the one and only time I genuinely belief there's enough support for a tier 2 combo hunter. Play a semi defensive secret hunter built, draw your specific beasts (Savannah Highmane, King Krush, Tundra Rhino, Scarlet Webweaver, etc.) with tutor cards like Scavenger's Ingenuity, buff em with Scrap Shot, then play Beastmaster Leoroxx for the win, or play Hunting Party for discounted king krush for the win.

    But enough with the memes. Dragon hunter and face hunter will probably be forefront on everyone's nightmares, gaining the powerful Pack Tactics and losing basically nothing. Face hunter in particular since the weakness of SN1P-SN4P+Zilliax is no longer a thing. I will be greatly surprised to see face hunter not nerfed in some way. It straight up counters half of all classes, and personally makes quest res priest a thing. Both abominable results of a face hunter meta.

    Tier 1, dragon hunter + face hunter. Probably better bet on dragon hunter than face hunter.

     

    Rogue - Will be tier 1 alongside dhunters, and will be the true competition to Illidan's midrange madness. Stealth aggro rogue looks really strong, almost too strong. We have seen what happens when aggro rogue gets draw cards, and Greyheart Sage is just that. Plus Dirty Tricks, this basically invalidates any reason to run both galakrond or togwaggle for draw and that's saying alot. It also allows rogue to use Cold Blood effectively again, perhaps its even good enough to replace Shadowstep now that Leeroy Jenkins is no longer here.

    Secret rogue will likewise also find competitiveness. Bamboozle is a dangerous card, which protects tempo and discourages face/minion trading from your opponent. Blackjack stunner destroys embiggen druid, and Shadowjeweler Hanar looks to be as good as it was when it was first revealed. All in all, very strong support for secret rogue.

    Dont underestimate Cursed Vagrant. This card basically ensures that the only way to avoid 7 to the face is with taunts and freezes. It comes expensive at 7, but drop this card and watch your opponent scramble for a taunt.

     

    Warlock - Probably where we will disagree the most. I watched trump's very successful play against firebat using Shadow Council + Imprisoned Scrap Imp but am convinced that its just a highrolling meme at best.

    In my opinion Shadow Council is perhaps best played in the 'trash' lock style deck that wins with alex+Nether Breath+Soulfire, since it cycles hard so its more consistent than controlock. Another place for this is discard zoolock, since Hand of Gul'dan+Expired Merchant allows for near infinite draw potential so there's consistency greater than controlock. Also, zoolock never tends to shy away from throwing their hand since its basically outvalued anywhere above turn 4 anyway.

    Plot twist warlock, my very own love, will suffer from the loss of Dollmaster Dorian. Perhaps this will be the best time for quest lock to shine. But I'm not optimistic.

    My prediction is galakrond controlock to still be the highest tier warlock can aspire to. Maybe shadow council trashlock can make a difference, fingers crossed.

     

    Druid - We are in agreement. I will only add that quest druid can outvalue aggro dhunters and all types of rogue, and will likely see it in tier 2.

     

    Shaman - Again, we are in agreement. Mostly because you brought up the shaman list which I have genuine hope can be tier 2. The creator of the list didnt see hope to put in The Lurker Below and instead opted for Lady Vashj. In my opinion that's a mistake. Vashj prime is the worst of all the primes, and The Lurker Below is at least a decent counter to aggro decks, and with shaman cards being as it is, that's probably good enough.

     

    Priest - My opinion is that priest is good, and tempo priest has a decent chance against aggressive hunters and dhunters. Outside of that, priest gets out valued hard by nearly every other class that plays midrange and above. This might be the best time for galakrond priest to shine, with the hero power and invokes being more powerful since priest lost its ability to draw with Northshire Cleric, and the timely addition of stronger minions.

    My prediction is for midrange galakrond priest to be a decent tier 2, and dragon priest as an effective counter to aggro dhunters and hunters, which is reason enough for priest to be on top, at least for a while.

     

    Mage - There's a possibility for the archetype of freeze mage to come back to standard, mostly because of Incanter's Flow. If everything goes according to plan, you can easily get 2x Fireball + 2x [Hearthstone Card (frost bolt) Not Found] to hit face for 18, with a single Pyroblast as backup. Add this to an Alexstrasza + 1 mana Frost Nova, there's enough here to make freeze mage work.

    Draw is an issue though, but you might still be able to buy some turns with Evocation, which is more than likely to give you a freeze spell somewhere. Added that Evocation can also generate burn cards, and can be generated by cards like Magic Trick, there's more than enough gas for the combo dream to live on.

    I predict, boldly, that mage can actually be tier 1 at some point. Put down only by face hunter. But its likely going to be tier 2 at best or just plain tier 4 for lack of consistency.

     

    Edit: Added Mage critique

    1
  • Almaniarra's Avatar
    Devoted Outlander 880 1345 Posts Joined 03/21/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I personally think that Paladin is more meta dependant. I was playing paladin to reach 1000 win most of my time and i saw that heal package of paladin is what it can stop Aggro decks well.

    If Aggro and aggressive Demon Hunter and Hunters will be dominant in meta, I believe that a Paladin deck with some heal package might be on top tiers. Can't be sure about an aggro Paladin deck tho. Murgur Murgurgle will some impact on meta probably but Paladin's card draw is in a state that most of card draw cards are for control/combo style which takes some power level from aggressive paladin decks. So I believe in that some Heal oriented Midrange or Control style Paladin deck will be better than an aggro one.

    I agree with your Demon Hunter statements. That's more logical to say that your first choice about what Blizzard chose is. Also it is the more realistic one. Of coure they will want Demon Hunter to success for market states. But I honestly think that This shouldn't bother anyone because they are giving Initiate cards for free to everyone which is a win-win for company and players both and that set gives you almost all pieces of fundemental cards that you can need for a viable Demon Hunter deck. Ok some AoO Demon Hunter cards are also must haves for some archetypes but I guess new duplication rule can give you some more aswell. I really believe in that some viable Demon Hunter deck should be in game with only using Initiate cards. Also it will be more fresh for everyone to see a new class in the top tier than existing ones in my opinion.

    I also agree with almost all of your Hunter conclusions. Want to say something more about Vereesa Windrunner. As you already said, I also believe in that she is such a powerful card and supported well in my opninion. I think she wasn't so popular because top streamers didn't decide to play with her more than other archetypes. I really rarely lose games when I could Play Vereesa Windrunner. The weapon's power is really huge. With some of AoO cards that gives you some good tools to play at early game, I think, like you, she might shine .

    For Rogue, I would say that, we might some surprise top tier stealth deck in this expansion. I would also say that stealth archetype might need some board clears or powerful single target hard removals to be viable tho. At this point, I want to say that Unidentified Contract might see some serious play, also I hope too because that spell can answer both single target and boardclear needs of Rogue. It also synergizes well with one of its upgraded effect which summons a stealth minion. However, it might not be true too because it is an rng effect. I would say it would be a good strategy to summon some stealth minions and clear enemy's board with something then burst the enemy's face with your stealth minions. Also Secret Rogue probably will substitute with Thief rogue in this expansion. I personally think that, this move is a great move for Rogue class. I would do the same if i want to add Secret archetype to rogue, it should belong to or substitute with thief archetype. I am expecting to see at least a tier 2 secret rogue in this expansion.

    Warlock always finds a place in meta with its huge card draw. If nothing, there will be a zoolock deck as always. Its classic set lets that. With Leeroy Jenkins rotation, it might lose some resource for ending the game earlier but I honestly think that it doesn't affect Zoolock archetype so harsh and AoO gives some great tools to play to Zoolock. Teron Gorefiend is an example. Warlock also gets some good support for Control oriented decks and I, like you, also see warlock in avarage power at this expansion. Warlock has control and aggro tools both and gets some more supports for both archetypes too. So it will probably in meta at mid-tier.

    For Warrior, I would say it will start to lose its aggressive playstyle and will return back to be a more midrange/control archetype class again in my opinion. Taunt Warrior and the Good old Armor Stacking Control Warrior might be a thing in this expansion again. It won't be with huge boardclears this time tho but still good options to clear the board and continue to stack armor. Archivist Elysiana is still in standard so carrying the game to Fatigue won't be a problem for that playstyle. It loses some blood for early game with rotation but classic cards still here so I personally think that warriors will be able to defend themselves from aggressive DH and Hunter swarms.

    Our thoughts differs here. I personally think that we could see some Secret Mage in standard instead of other archetypes. I really don't like the state Mages are in right now with so much rng spell generators. I hope this changes this year but seeing Evocation shows that it won't probably. Secret Mage in the other hand impresses me more with some tools added at AoO.

    Priest will start to be a midrange class with this expansion imo. With all classes losing Spellbreaker, buffer Priest might be a thing but [Hearthstone Card (Zephyrs the great) Not Found] changes this fact unfortunately because it can give highlander decks Mass Dispel and some other silence cards unfortunately. I think that Priests will have no chance in meta until [Hearthstone Card (Zephyrs the Great) Not Found] leaves the standard. Blizzard really wants Steal Priest a thing but they are not doing the correct thing for that archetype. Thief rogue was succesful at past because there was some cards that gives you bonuses because you are holding or using other class cards. Steal Priest needs exact same thing to be viable in my opinion. Princess Talanji is an example card for what it can reward you to steal cards but was not enough and also rotating. I would say that with overhaul of Classic and Basic, Steal Priest might be a thing A BIG IF that archetype gets some support. Blizzard needs to understand that adding more steal cards don't support that archetype. They need some tools that rewards players for stealing cards just like [Hearthstone Card (The Bazaar Burglary) Not Found], [Hearthstone Card (Spectral Knife) Not Found], Underbelly Fence, Vendetta etc.

    And another class that we think different from each other. Shamans might lose some key cards but I believe that it is the time that return back to old playstyle instead of swarming with battlecry minions. With Warriors returning back to old playstyle, I personally think that it is time for shamans to return back to old playstyle. In past, some decks with Azure Drake was something with Spell Damage etc. and an enough burst as a finisher with Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Lady Vashj is just for this archetype for example. Also there are cards that you can build a weak version of Shamanstone-times deck (Flamewreathed Faceless, Tunnel Trogg). That was so powerful in those times and this time it is way weaker but still can do the job. Squallhunter for Flamewreathed Faceless, Surging Tempest for Tunnel Trogg, Storm's Wrath + Unbound Elemental for board presence, Vashj Prime for some burst draw, Cumulo-Maximus and burn for finish the game. I am expecting to see some kind of midrange Overload shaman with Burn finishers in this expansion. But well, you might be right about shamans being at bottom in this expansion. I won't be surprised for that aswell because Shamans have been dominant quite sometime and people are bored to see them in meta but it might be said for Hunter aswell which will continue to dominate meta, i presume.

    For Druids, Embiggen Druid will continue to be a thing in meta probably. Even if it won't, We will probably see some tries and there will be always some people that uses the same strategy over and over again. I'm not interested with it but spell druid really takes my interests this time. Different from you, I personally think that Spell Druid doesn't need to have those minions to be viable. I mean, more consistent with full spell package Spell Druid would be more effective but you might be right aswell because spell druid doesn't need deck restriction just like Spell Hunter and Spell Mage which makes Crystalsong Portal, Glowfly Swarm and Fungal Fortunes can work even your deck has minions. I can't predict its tier tho. Seems quite powerful on paper but can't really say anything before i see Demon Hunter's impact on the meta. Why Demon Hunter's ? Because its minion swarm might beat Druid's token swarm. Can't be sure. Combo/Control Druid in the other hand, seems to have support more and more. Blizzard really wants Druid is the class that have always combo and token archetypes. Combo support for Druid never stops which really worries me a lot.

    So my conclusion is like;
    Great
    #1 - Demon Hunter
    #2 - Hunter
    #3 - Paladin
    Good
    #4 - Rogue
    #5 - Druid
    #6 - Warlock
    Avarage
    #7 - Warrior
    #8 - Shaman
    #9 - Mage
    Bad
    #10 - Priest

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  • Togwaggle's Avatar
    210 91 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    This is a very good initial analysis and I agree that due to demon hunter classes will be hardlocked in to their strongest strategy with the most optimal decks  being favoured. 

    My fellow memers and I will struggle a bit at first but there is lots of fun to be had this expansion.

    Well written sir

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  • Cheese's Avatar
    270 160 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I fear that the biggest change that will happen this rotation is that...there won't be any. YotD's power level is so high compared to YotR's and all top meta decks keep their core cards (Galakrond Rogue, Dragon Hunter, all highlander decks,...)

    The only major change, outside of the introduction of DH obviously, will be for Paladin. Uther will have to pray that Librams are viable because Paladin is the only class that received complete crap throughout 2019 and its only viable deck, Mech Paladin, will rotate out...

    As for DH, its base power level is way too high. It will be tier 1 but not the top class. Warlock has a lot of control tools on top of Sac Pact so it will eat DHs for breakfast. Rogue's power level is currently so high that even DH with all of its OP cards is no match for it.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 1915 4024 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From RavenSunHS

    I agree that DH will be high on top tiers, if not at the very top, thanks to good cards and Aggro being fairly easy to figure out in the first days. Yet despite their card draw, DH have poor tools to swing back the game in their favor, if the opponent manages to play a Tempo swing turn. Which is why I expect DH to rise soon as Aggro king of the meta, then rapidly fall, as soon as people figure out how to stop them (in particular with Priests and maybe Warriors).

    At that point, Dragon Hunter will take the lead of the meta, and probably keep it for a long while.

    DH will make a comeback later with Tempo lists itself.

    Which is also why I don't think Rogue will be so low in tiers: I am fairly sure they can adjust with a faster Galakrond, and be a fair match for DH in terms of Tempo.

    I also expect some form of Galakrond Warrior to be there, considering Corsair Cache. The Rage package with Armorsmith and some extra Armor tools could be enough to repel a DH. 

    For similar reasons (ie healing and high hp), I expect a Midrange or Control Priest to be a fair threat in the meta. Lack of card draw will hold them back tho.

    Libram Paladin will be a fair deck, but I don't think that good, since Librams still need quite some setup, and you can barely play a Midrange Paladin with them, with the risk of being vulnerable to Aggro and Tempo: at that point we have higher chances of a Big Beast Midrange Hunter to be way better. Paladins have many tools but will need a lot of refinement.

    Overall, I think Mage will be the worst class, completely unplayable as soon as the meta refines

    As for Warlock, I really don't know, but I think it will follow Mage pretty closely. I don't believe Shadow Council can be a thing, as it is RANDOM stuff, and I don't think current Standard Handlock can actually find a niche in a Tempo meta, since its powertools need setup, and in the meanwhile, its defenses are poor or need setup themselves (Plague of Flames).

    Druid and Shaman may barely survive the onslaught, but low in tiers.

    1. Hunter t1

    2. DH t1

    3. Rogue t1

    4. Paladin t2

    5. Warrior t2

    6. Priest t2

    7. Druid t3

    8. Shaman t3

    9. Warlock t4 (t3 at best)

    10. Mage t5

    I believe you're underestimating what Warlock is capable now. Shadow Council is random, sure, but the amount of demons we have right now is so large that you're bound to get something immediately playable or big enough to fuel later turns.

    I do agree that I might have underrated Warrior.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 1915 4024 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From dapperdog

    I am genuinely curious how many hours it took you to get this much up, even on those small pieces I wrote outside of this thread took around 20 minutes per article, and those were written per class.

    I will address some interesting point you made in the article, and insert my own predictions.

    Demon hunters - My prediction is that midrange and highlander dhunter will dominate the meta. Not so for aggressive dhunters, which suffers greatly from board clears.

    I dont agree that aggressive hunters will kill off any sort of dhunters. To explain, Dhunters have one aspect that make them more resistant to both face hunter and dragon hunter, and that aspect is that they can heal, and are deceptively good at it. Aldrachi Warblades will be basically in every dhunter, and can heal for 3 with 1 mana hp, and can heal for even more thanks to cards like Chaos Strike and Twin Slice, never mind Inner Demon. As we have experienced, even healing for a mere 6 points tend to rubbish face hunter 50% of the time, and here's a card that heals for 3 every turn for 3 turns, with potential to do more. Also Ashtongue Battlelord is the new psuedo zilliax for dhunters, which guarantees to at least absorb 5 damage at minimum.

    Dhunter has access to some of the best tempo cards in the game. Perhaps even better than dragon hunter's or rogue. For that reason, dragon hunter doesnt get a free win versus dhunters of any sort.

    Also, Eye Beam. This card is so disgusting that I genuinely belief this to be the main reason NOT to run a highlander dhunter.

     

    Paladin - Probably murloc paladin might make a comeback, but there is higher hopes for highlander dragon paladin. Overall, I dont think paladin can ever match up to dhunters, hunter or rogue, but will be competitive versus other classes. They will be stuck at tier 3 until further notice, is my prediction.

    Also, in my opinion healing doesnt counter aggro decks that rely on tempo. Dragon hunter still destroys dragon paladin with double Amber Watcher, even now. Its only very good versus face hunter.

     

    Hunter - This is perhaps the one and only time I genuinely belief there's enough support for a tier 2 combo hunter. Play a semi defensive secret hunter built, draw your specific beasts (Savannah Highmane, King Krush, Tundra Rhino, Scarlet Webweaver, etc.) with tutor cards like Scavenger's Ingenuity, buff em with Scrap Shot, then play Beastmaster Leoroxx for the win, or play Hunting Party for discounted king krush for the win.

    But enough with the memes. Dragon hunter and face hunter will probably be forefront on everyone's nightmares, gaining the powerful Pack Tactics and losing basically nothing. Face hunter in particular since the weakness of SN1P-SN4P+Zilliax is no longer a thing. I will be greatly surprised to see face hunter not nerfed in some way. It straight up counters half of all classes, and personally makes quest res priest a thing. Both abominable results of a face hunter meta.

    Tier 1, dragon hunter + face hunter. Probably better bet on dragon hunter than face hunter.

     

    Rogue - Will be tier 1 alongside dhunters, and will be the true competition to Illidan's midrange madness. Stealth aggro rogue looks really strong, almost too strong. We have seen what happens when aggro rogue gets draw cards, and Greyheart Sage is just that. Plus Dirty Tricks, this basically invalidates any reason to run both galakrond or togwaggle for draw and that's saying alot. It also allows rogue to use Cold Blood effectively again, perhaps its even good enough to replace Shadowstep now that Leeroy Jenkins is no longer here.

    Secret rogue will likewise also find competitiveness. Bamboozle is a dangerous card, which protects tempo and discourages face/minion trading from your opponent. Blackjack stunner destroys embiggen druid, and Shadowjeweler Hanar looks to be as good as it was when it was first revealed. All in all, very strong support for secret rogue.

    Dont underestimate Cursed Vagrant. This card basically ensures that the only way to avoid 7 to the face is with taunts and freezes. It comes expensive at 7, but drop this card and watch your opponent scramble for a taunt.

     

    Warlock - Probably where we will disagree the most. I watched trump's very successful play against firebat using Shadow Council + Imprisoned Scrap Imp but am convinced that its just a highrolling meme at best.

    In my opinion Shadow Council is perhaps best played in the 'trash' lock style deck that wins with alex+Nether Breath+Soulfire, since it cycles hard so its more consistent than controlock. Another place for this is discard zoolock, since Hand of Gul'dan+Expired Merchant allows for near infinite draw potential so there's consistency greater than controlock. Also, zoolock never tends to shy away from throwing their hand since its basically outvalued anywhere above turn 4 anyway.

    Plot twist warlock, my very own love, will suffer from the loss of Dollmaster Dorian. Perhaps this will be the best time for quest lock to shine. But I'm not optimistic.

    My prediction is galakrond controlock to still be the highest tier warlock can aspire to. Maybe shadow council trashlock can make a difference, fingers crossed.

     

    Druid - We are in agreement. I will only add that quest druid can outvalue aggro dhunters and all types of rogue, and will likely see it in tier 2.

     

    Shaman - Again, we are in agreement. Mostly because you brought up the shaman list which I have genuine hope can be tier 2. The creator of the list didnt see hope to put in The Lurker Below and instead opted for Lady Vashj. In my opinion that's a mistake. Vashj prime is the worst of all the primes, and The Lurker Below is at least a decent counter to aggro decks, and with shaman cards being as it is, that's probably good enough.

     

    Priest - My opinion is that priest is good, and tempo priest has a decent chance against aggressive hunters and dhunters. Outside of that, priest gets out valued hard by nearly every other class that plays midrange and above. This might be the best time for galakrond priest to shine, with the hero power and invokes being more powerful since priest lost its ability to draw with Northshire Cleric, and the timely addition of stronger minions.

    My prediction is for midrange galakrond priest to be a decent tier 2, and dragon priest as an effective counter to aggro dhunters and hunters, which is reason enough for priest to be on top, at least for a while.

     

    Mage - There's a possibility for the archetype of freeze mage to come back to standard, mostly because of Incanter's Flow. If everything goes according to plan, you can easily get 2x Fireball + 2x frost bolt to hit face for 18, with a single Pyroblast as backup. Add this to an Alexstrasza + 1 mana Frost Nova, there's enough here to make freeze mage work.

    Draw is an issue though, but you might still be able to buy some turns with Evocation, which is more than likely to give you a freeze spell somewhere. Added that Evocation can also generate burn cards, and can be generated by cards like Magic Trick, there's more than enough gas for the combo dream to live on.

    I predict, boldly, that mage can actually be tier 1 at some point. Put down only by face hunter. But its likely going to be tier 2 at best or just plain tier 4 for lack of consistency.

     

    Edit: Added Mage critique

    I get the point about Dorian in Twistlock, but I also think it opens up the ability to use Plot Twist earlier to fish for healing with Broodmother and the boardclear with Kelidan.

    Old Twistlock had the problem that you had two pre-defined turns to use the card for and until then it was a dead card, now it's more flexible.

     

    Also I really blanked on how much lifegain DH has. You're probably right, they might even be best equipped to deal with hyper aggro.

     

    I also wanna add to Priest, that I noticed that they are shifting away from printing symmetrical boardclears in favour of assymmetrical ones that encourage building a board of your own (see Chronobreaker, Breath of the Infinite, and the new Soul Mirror, as well as Shadow Word:ruin) so maybe the key to Control/value priest is to actuallly play the board at least a little instead of just nuking it every other turn.

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar
    Skeleton 1915 4024 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From Almaniarra

    I personally think that Paladin is more meta dependant. I was playing paladin to reach 1000 win most of my time and i saw that heal package of paladin is what it can stop Aggro decks well.

    If Aggro and aggressive Demon Hunter and Hunters will be dominant in meta, I believe that a Paladin deck with some heal package might be on top tiers. Can't be sure about an aggro Paladin deck tho. Murgur Murgurgle will some impact on meta probably but Paladin's card draw is in a state that most of card draw cards are for control/combo style which takes some power level from aggressive paladin decks. So I believe in that some Heal oriented Midrange or Control style Paladin deck will be better than an aggro one.

    I agree with your Demon Hunter statements. That's more logical to say that your first choice about what Blizzard chose is. Also it is the more realistic one. Of coure they will want Demon Hunter to success for market states. But I honestly think that This shouldn't bother anyone because they are giving Initiate cards for free to everyone which is a win-win for company and players both and that set gives you almost all pieces of fundemental cards that you can need for a viable Demon Hunter deck. Ok some AoO Demon Hunter cards are also must haves for some archetypes but I guess new duplication rule can give you some more aswell. I really believe in that some viable Demon Hunter deck should be in game with only using Initiate cards. Also it will be more fresh for everyone to see a new class in the top tier than existing ones in my opinion.

    I also agree with almost all of your Hunter conclusions. Want to say something more about Vereesa Windrunner. As you already said, I also believe in that she is such a powerful card and supported well in my opninion. I think she wasn't so popular because top streamers didn't decide to play with her more than other archetypes. I really rarely lose games when I could Play Vereesa Windrunner. The weapon's power is really huge. With some of AoO cards that gives you some good tools to play at early game, I think, like you, she might shine .

    For Rogue, I would say that, we might some surprise top tier stealth deck in this expansion. I would also say that stealth archetype might need some board clears or powerful single target hard removals to be viable tho. At this point, I want to say that Unidentified Contract might see some serious play, also I hope too because that spell can answer both single target and boardclear needs of Rogue. It also synergizes well with one of its upgraded effect which summons a stealth minion. However, it might not be true too because it is an rng effect. I would say it would be a good strategy to summon some stealth minions and clear enemy's board with something then burst the enemy's face with your stealth minions. Also Secret Rogue probably will substitute with Thief rogue in this expansion. I personally think that, this move is a great move for Rogue class. I would do the same if i want to add Secret archetype to rogue, it should belong to or substitute with thief archetype. I am expecting to see at least a tier 2 secret rogue in this expansion.

    Warlock always finds a place in meta with its huge card draw. If nothing, there will be a zoolock deck as always. Its classic set lets that. With Leeroy Jenkins rotation, it might lose some resource for ending the game earlier but I honestly think that it doesn't affect Zoolock archetype so harsh and AoO gives some great tools to play to Zoolock. Teron Gorefiend is an example. Warlock also gets some good support for Control oriented decks and I, like you, also see warlock in avarage power at this expansion. Warlock has control and aggro tools both and gets some more supports for both archetypes too. So it will probably in meta at mid-tier.

    For Warrior, I would say it will start to lose its aggressive playstyle and will return back to be a more midrange/control archetype class again in my opinion. Taunt Warrior and the Good old Armor Stacking Control Warrior might be a thing in this expansion again. It won't be with huge boardclears this time tho but still good options to clear the board and continue to stack armor. Archivist Elysiana is still in standard so carrying the game to Fatigue won't be a problem for that playstyle. It loses some blood for early game with rotation but classic cards still here so I personally think that warriors will be able to defend themselves from aggressive DH and Hunter swarms.

    Our thoughts differs here. I personally think that we could see some Secret Mage in standard instead of other archetypes. I really don't like the state Mages are in right now with so much rng spell generators. I hope this changes this year but seeing Evocation shows that it won't probably. Secret Mage in the other hand impresses me more with some tools added at AoO.

    Priest will start to be a midrange class with this expansion imo. With all classes losing Spellbreaker, buffer Priest might be a thing but Zephyrs the great changes this fact unfortunately because it can give highlander decks Mass Dispel and some other silence cards unfortunately. I think that Priests will have no chance in meta until Zephyrs the Great leaves the standard. Blizzard really wants Steal Priest a thing but they are not doing the correct thing for that archetype. Thief rogue was succesful at past because there was some cards that gives you bonuses because you are holding or using other class cards. Steal Priest needs exact same thing to be viable in my opinion. Princess Talanji is an example card for what it can reward you to steal cards but was not enough and also rotating. I would say that with overhaul of Classic and Basic, Steal Priest might be a thing A BIG IF that archetype gets some support. Blizzard needs to understand that adding more steal cards don't support that archetype. They need some tools that rewards players for stealing cards just like The Bazaar Burglary, Spectral Knife, Underbelly Fence, Vendetta etc.

    And another class that we think different from each other. Shamans might lose some key cards but I believe that it is the time that return back to old playstyle instead of swarming with battlecry minions. With Warriors returning back to old playstyle, I personally think that it is time for shamans to return back to old playstyle. In past, some decks with Azure Drake was something with Spell Damage etc. and an enough burst as a finisher with Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Lady Vashj is just for this archetype for example. Also there are cards that you can build a weak version of Shamanstone-times deck (Flamewreathed Faceless, Tunnel Trogg). That was so powerful in those times and this time it is way weaker but still can do the job. Squallhunter for Flamewreathed Faceless, Surging Tempest for Tunnel Trogg, Storm's Wrath + Unbound Elemental for board presence, Vashj Prime for some burst draw, Cumulo-Maximus and burn for finish the game. I am expecting to see some kind of midrange Overload shaman with Burn finishers in this expansion. But well, you might be right about shamans being at bottom in this expansion. I won't be surprised for that aswell because Shamans have been dominant quite sometime and people are bored to see them in meta but it might be said for Hunter aswell which will continue to dominate meta, i presume.

    For Druids, Embiggen Druid will continue to be a thing in meta probably. Even if it won't, We will probably see some tries and there will be always some people that uses the same strategy over and over again. I'm not interested with it but spell druid really takes my interests this time. Different from you, I personally think that Spell Druid doesn't need to have those minions to be viable. I mean, more consistent with full spell package Spell Druid would be more effective but you might be right aswell because spell druid doesn't need deck restriction just like Spell Hunter and Spell Mage which makes Crystalsong Portal, Glowfly Swarm and Fungal Fortunes can work even your deck has minions. I can't predict its tier tho. Seems quite powerful on paper but can't really say anything before i see Demon Hunter's impact on the meta. Why Demon Hunter's ? Because its minion swarm might beat Druid's token swarm. Can't be sure. Combo/Control Druid in the other hand, seems to have support more and more. Blizzard really wants Druid is the class that have always combo and token archetypes. Combo support for Druid never stops which really worries me a lot.

    So my conclusion is like;
    Great
    #1 - Demon Hunter
    #2 - Hunter
    #3 - Paladin
    Good
    #4 - Rogue
    #5 - Druid
    #6 - Warlock
    Avarage
    #7 - Warrior
    #8 - Shaman
    #9 - Mage
    Bad
    #10 - Priest

    I like your optimism for Secret Mage, but I just don't see a winning strategy for that archetype.

    At best there's a Cloud Prince burn plan, but the lack of draw hurts.

    We also didn't get any new elementals so Elemental Allies, despite being a great drawing tool, is still as average as it is right now.

     

    I also don't think Tempo Priest will get any serious support, I believe they'd rather make a control/midrange priest that tries to control the board with spells and minions and then outvalues their opponents through galakrond. Tempo needs at least some card draw, and as you said, Zephrys kind of ruins big buff stacking strategies.

     

    I also don't really have hope for Shaman. I get what you are going for with returning to old strategies, but realistically, those strategies just don't compare to what other classes do. Sure, you can play your double 2/3 taunts on 3, but then your opponent just pushes you off the board on your overload turn. Shaman just doesn't really have anything particularly unfair to do right now and that's the problem

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • MurlocBard's Avatar
    255 65 Posts Joined 11/25/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From MurlocBard

    highlander demon hunter  tier 1 for sure

    really? I think that would just hurt their consistency and force you to run a bunch of less powerful cards to fill up 30. Is Zephrys really that important to DH.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6oD0F809VU&lc=z22eh5zqbo2oureenacdp433eocjbye3hd4wlogtxzxw03c010c.1585285326396219

    video of firebat dominating with highlander

    Translated from mrglish

    0
  • duppie's Avatar
    HearthStationeer 320 240 Posts Joined 04/02/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Demon Hunters

    I generally agree.  They're going to be nutty and meta defining.  I think counter decking against them is possible though, but who knows.

     

    Paladin

    Somewhat disagree.  This set seems promising for paladin but it aint no KotFT Warlock.  Librams might be too slow and clunky to be used.  Paladin looks good but not great.

     

    Hunter

    Really not sure here.  The loss of zilliax is huge for hunter but if that means aggro/tempo decks are going to be more common that isn't good.  Dragon Hunter has little comeback and is just decent at parity.  It really shines when it gets ahead because of its ability to stay ahead but if decks are more focused on fighting for the board early it might actually be worse for hunter.  Dragon hunter will still be a force though. Face hunter is a meme deck.  It's going to be trash in a fast meta or any meta in general.

    HIghlander might be better than dragon.  Just depends on the meta.  If it becomes an aggro meta you'll see warriors/priests do the control thing and highlander is probably much better against that kind of thing.

     

    Rogue

    Disagree on Rogue.  Gala Rogue will still be tier 1.  It's only slow in this meta because it's a slow meta, the deck can be tweaked to be faster by filling the slots its losing with tempo cards like SI Agent, Maiev, etc.  Gala Rogue is busted and will remain so.  Highlander Rogue with the Gala package seems a bit more sketchy but it could also be a thing.

    On the other hand I think secret/stealth rogue is a bait.  The secrets are easy to play around and ignore, it doesn't create the double threat that hunter secrets do which is the main reason hunter is the only good secret class.    Stealth rogue is also not going to be that good.  Playing fragile minions for some early tempo/face damage isn't going to be enough imo.  Remember when secret paladin was going to be the nuts in RoS?  I get the same vibe from this.  Doesn't mean that some of the cards won't see play especially if highlander rogue is a thing.  Just don't see it as it's own deck.

     

    Warlock

    Zoo will be a thing at the start of the year.  It always is.  How good or how long it will last remains to be seen.  

    Gala warlock gets better I think?  Gets a few new things, matches up well enough against aggro, has different late game techs.

    don't feel like spending brain power thinking about control warlock, but it has potential.  you probably just play Gala warlock as your control deck and thats better though.

     

    Druid

    Druid is a class i'm really unsure of.  With mage losing pocket galaxy and priest losing some things I think quest druid will be uncontested as the strongest late game class.  It's super liable to certain kinds of aggro decks though, so it might be trash.  It loses two super strong cards in the deck in Floop and Loti, but everything else remains and the package itself is still incredibly strong.  Quest druid could still be a thing if the meta doesn't punish it.  

    Ramp/embiggen/dragon druid could be pretty strong.

     

    Mage

    every mage deck except highlander will be trash.  

    Highlander will be pretty good I think.  It'll have to be built less greedy because no pocket but it still has some insane power plays and swingy cards with Zeph, Reno, Conj, Kalecgos, etc.  Losing zilliax, the secret girl, pocket, and some other things do make its future questionable.  Mage can always scam wins though.

     

    Warrior

    I think warrior is going to be good.  You can make a gala deck that beats aggro and hits control in the face.  battle rage needs to carry the deck but I think it's possible.  

     

    Priest and Shaman

     

    Shit classes with bad cards.  Might as well delete from the game.

     

    Shaman has potential if they unnerf some shit but they mismanaged and ruined Shaman with descend of dragons.  They released the class with one of the most absurd power levels ever seen which is the result of poor testing imo.  Then they nerf it once hitting a lot of the wrong cards so people just cut those cards because it was the Gala package that was the busted part of the class anyway.  Then they nerf the gala package (arguably the wrong part of it) and now the class is unplayable.  The unnerf of Sludge Slurper helped aggro shaman come back but its losing all the cards that make it a deck.  

    Shaman is my favorite class and I'm super fucking annoyed with how they've ruined it.

     

    Priest is just a walking dumpster fire and I feel the rework might have made it worst.  They took away priests best cards and made some of the bad ones decent.  I don't think that is a recipe for success.  Their new cards look giga shit.

     

     

     

    0
  • meisterz39's Avatar
    925 1200 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From MurlocBard
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From MurlocBard

    highlander demon hunter  tier 1 for sure

    really? I think that would just hurt their consistency and force you to run a bunch of less powerful cards to fill up 30. Is Zephrys really that important to DH.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6oD0F809VU&lc=z22eh5zqbo2oureenacdp433eocjbye3hd4wlogtxzxw03c010c.1585285326396219

    video of firebat dominating with highlander

    It seems like a powerful deck, but the sample size here from that theorycrafting stream is pretty small, and most streamers were trying lots of classes/archetypes (some of which were not very successful), so I'd take that video with a grain of salt.

    1
  • Lambda's Avatar
    390 126 Posts Joined 07/24/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    S-Tier:

     

    1. Highlander DH - I have watched firebat pilot that deck and he obliterated nearly everything. It was very impressive.

     

    Tier 1:

     

    2. Midrange DH

    3. Highlander Stealth Rogue

    4. Some kind of Hunter (probably Dragon Hunter)

     

    Tier 2:

     

    5. Midrange/Control Warrior 

    6. Secret Rogue

    7. Aggro DH

    8. Face Hunter

     

    Tier 3:

     

    9. ZooLock

    10. Demon Warlock

    11. Some kind of Paladin Deck (probably highlander libram+x style) honestly I don't know why so many of you get hyped because of those new cards. I just can't see it... 

    12. Embiggen Druid

     

    Tier 4.

     

    Priest - MAYBE Zetalot will be able to build some kind of viable Tier 3 deck, but with the loss of Mass hysteria and no real resurrect/if combo I just can't imagine a stronger deck. 

    Shaman - was too strong (looking at you GK) got nerfed, got a little 1 drop unnerfed that benefitted an aggro playstyle and now loses many core cards for that arctype. Shaman players will have a hard time

    Mage - The loss of Zilliax hits Mage hard in my opinion and I don't see any strong deck variant around the corner right now. There are way too many cards pointing in different deck directions (only spell, tempo, highlander control, minion generators)

    -1
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