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Commander Ledros ought to round down

  • meisterz39's Avatar 405 572 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago

    Title says it all. If you can manage to defend yourself despite having your life total halved (perhaps more than once), you've earned the win. Having Commander Ledros deal lethal damage at 1 HP means that if you don't have something to meaningfully diffuse his effect (e.g. Mageseeker Investigator), or if you're not already way in the lead, you're screwed.

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  • OldManSanns's Avatar Explorer of Dragons 435 553 Posts Joined 08/05/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago

    I dunno, man.  Late game epics are suppose to have a huge effect.  And honestly, its pretty slow: if you are at 10 HP when your opponent plays it the first time, assuming no other damage or healing, that's 10 -> 5 -> 2 -> 1 so 4 times I have to replay him.  Compare this with a She Who Wanders, Warmother's Call, Captain Farron, or The Harrowing: those will all probably end the game a lot quicker than Ledros.

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  • DoubleSummon's Avatar 910 1712 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago

    I agree with oldManSanns, but I think riot will increase his mana cost to 9 or 10 to make it harder to play, or remove fearsome to make it so you can block it with tokens. (the card should stay as a finisher, but reduce his power level..)

    I am ok with such card existing.. it costs a lot and it should be impactful.

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Swamp 965 2047 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago

    He has to be nerfed either in stats or in cost.

    It's a ridiculous endgame win condition that's barely counterable. Outside of purifying or freeze/stun stalling you can't really deal with him.

    And ofc he has fearsome so you can't even chump block him.

    He's basically a champion with an epic tag

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • GerritDeMan's Avatar 245 179 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago

    I think I would remove fearsome from him. Right now you're totally screwed if you don't have high attack minions because all your opponent has to do is play Ledros and attack with him to deal a minimum of 18 damage in a minority of situations (your nexus has 18+ health) or just kill you in all the rest. That is just too much for one epic card. And then there's the combo with Atrocity which you can only prevent with Deny or by killing Ledros with fast and/or burst spells.

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  • meisterz39's Avatar 405 572 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago
    Quote From DoubleSummon

    I agree with oldManSanns, but I think riot will increase his mana cost to 9 or 10 to make it harder to play, or remove fearsome to make it so you can block it with tokens. (the card should stay as a finisher, but reduce his power level..)

    I am ok with such card existing.. it costs a lot and it should be impactful.

    For what it's worth, I think cutting your life total in half is already a pretty huge impact, particularly since you max out at 20 HP and Ledros is an 8/6 that keeps coming back. If you only have token minions, his Fearsome will kill you, and if you have large minions, you'll be stuck trading your board away while your opponent gets to drop Ledros each round.

    Now, perhaps my suggestion that he should round down is not the right fix, but there's a whole host of ways he could be changed to make the effect more reasonable. I saw one suggestion on Reddit that changes his last breath effect to shuffle him into the deck rather than returning to hand, and having him lose Fearsome or changing his stats and/or cost because right now he's mostly an uncounterable win condition.

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  • Bystekhilcar's Avatar 230 334 Posts Joined 09/02/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    He has to be nerfed either in stats or in cost.

    It's a ridiculous endgame win condition that's barely counterable. Outside of purifying or freeze/stun stalling you can't really deal with him.

    And ofc he has fearsome so you can't even chump block him.

    He's basically a champion with an epic tag

    The counter, at that point, is that your opponent is spending eight mana on a burn effect and an 8/6 fearsome. 

    If you're still losing the board when they're doing that with their turns, you'd be losing either way. 6+ mana effects are phenomenally powerful in this game, and this one is entirely a burn win condition. As to the thread title - as above, really. If you're at 1 HP, literally any burn will kill you. Who cares if it's an 8-drop, you're dead to a stiff breeze. 

    Honestly, in a meta where aggression and Elusive are strong, to be complaining about a phenomenally slow, inefficient burn mechanism is endlessly confusing to me.

    I see you when you're sleeping; I'm gone before you wake

    I'm not as good as turn 4 Barnes; But I'm at least a Twilight Drake

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  • YourPrivateNightmare's Avatar Swamp 965 2047 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago
    Quote From Bystekhilcar
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    He has to be nerfed either in stats or in cost.

    It's a ridiculous endgame win condition that's barely counterable. Outside of purifying or freeze/stun stalling you can't really deal with him.

    And ofc he has fearsome so you can't even chump block him.

    He's basically a champion with an epic tag

    The counter, at that point, is that your opponent is spending eight mana on a burn effect and an 8/6 fearsome. 

    If you're still losing the board when they're doing that with their turns, you'd be losing either way. 6+ mana effects are phenomenally powerful in this game, and this one is entirely a burn win condition. As to the thread title - as above, really. If you're at 1 HP, literally any burn will kill you. Who cares if it's an 8-drop, you're dead to a stiff breeze. 

    Honestly, in a meta where aggression and Elusive are strong, to be complaining about a phenomenally slow, inefficient burn mechanism is endlessly confusing to me.

    except if you could actually remove him you wouldn't be in that situation. By the time you get to 8-mana most decks are usually running on topdecks, even the control ones, so being faced with an 8/6 that you can't get rid of is kind of ridiculous. His win condition should be his effect not the absurd amount of stats he brings for the cost.

    Right now you can put that thing in a spider aggro deck and he works fine as a lategame out against slower decks

    I tried having fun once.

    It was awful.

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  • Bystekhilcar's Avatar 230 334 Posts Joined 09/02/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago

    I'm not suggesting you remove him. I'm suggesting that when your opponent is running an extremely inefficient 8-drop onto the board, your corresponding board play should be stronger. If it isn't, the burn effect is doing little beyond clocking you one turn faster - you're still going to lose to the board. Similarly, if you're losing because you're both down to topdecks and he can bounce Ledros as well as play off his deck, you're again not losing to the burn - you're losing to the bounce. In either circumstance, the burn is entirely incidental - it's the other parts of the follower that are causing you problems, but you're targeting the burn as the part to be concerned about.

    I see you when you're sleeping; I'm gone before you wake

    I'm not as good as turn 4 Barnes; But I'm at least a Twilight Drake

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  • meisterz39's Avatar 405 572 Posts Joined 06/03/2019
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago
    Quote From Bystekhilcar

    I'm suggesting that when your opponent is running an extremely inefficient 8-drop onto the board, your corresponding board play should be stronger

    The idea that this 8 drop is an inefficient follower is simply wrong. The average stats for an 8-drop in LoR is about 7/6. So, Ledros is slight above average in terms of stats, he can't be chump blocked, his play effect is very powerful, and he bounces on death. There are certainly faster plays you can make with 8 mana (such as Battle Fury or Progress Day!), but that doesn't make Ledros inefficient.

    Quote From Bystekhilcar
    Similarly, if you're losing because you're both down to topdecks and he can bounce Ledros as well as play off his deck, you're again not losing to the burn - you're losing to the bounce.

    This is kind of a ridiculous argument, as the bounce enables the burn that your opponent might not otherwise be topdecking.

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  • franky's Avatar 50 15 Posts Joined 02/03/2020
    Posted 5 months, 4 weeks ago
    Quote From Bystekhilcar

    I'm not suggesting you remove him. I'm suggesting that when your opponent is running an extremely inefficient 8-drop onto the board, your corresponding board play should be stronger. If it isn't, the burn effect is doing little beyond clocking you one turn faster - you're still going to lose to the board. Similarly, if you're losing because you're both down to topdecks and he can bounce Ledros as well as play off his deck, you're again not losing to the burn - you're losing to the bounce. In either circumstance, the burn is entirely incidental - it's the other parts of the follower that are causing you problems, but you're targeting the burn as the part to be concerned about.

    Quote From Bystekhilcar

    The counter, at that point, is that your opponent is spending eight mana on a burn effect and an 8/6 fearsome. 

    If you're still losing the board when they're doing that with their turns, you'd be losing either way. 6+ mana effects are phenomenally powerful in this game, and this one is entirely a burn win condition. As to the thread title - as above, really. If you're at 1 HP, literally any burn will kill you. Who cares if it's an 8-drop, you're dead to a stiff breeze. 

    Honestly, in a meta where aggression and Elusive are strong, to be complaining about a phenomenally slow, inefficient burn mechanism is endlessly confusing to me.

    I'll give you a practical example why this card needs some changes.
    I had a game where opponent was with a full board of tokens/creatures max power 2.
    He was at 15 health, I was at 5 and I only had 1 unit on my board.
    I was gonna lose, as simple as that.
    I dropped Ledros, I attacked, I won.
    It's kinda not fair.

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  • Lightspoon's Avatar Merfolk 450 405 Posts Joined 04/01/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    Commander Ledros is an healthy card by an anti-control point of view, but it also has too many other extras: bounces back in hand as Last Breath, has pretty decent stats and has Fearsome.

    Since it's role has tech card is perfect, they should lower its statistics or at last remove Fearsome (so that it may be blocked even by little creeps) in order to limit its flexibility.

    "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world, and loses his own soul?"

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  • FortyDust's Avatar 165 283 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From franky

    I'll give you a practical example why this card needs some changes.
    I had a game where opponent was with a full board of tokens/creatures max power 2.
    He was at 15 health, I was at 5 and I only had 1 unit on my board.
    I was gonna lose, as simple as that.
    I dropped Ledros, I attacked, I won.
    It's kinda not fair.

    There are plenty of ways you could have won that game with other cards if your opponent didn't have removal or purify. it's perfectly fair.

    Board presence is not the only win condition, nor should it be.

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  • franky's Avatar 50 15 Posts Joined 02/03/2020
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From FortyDust

    There are plenty of ways you could have won that game with other cards if your opponent didn't have removal or purify. it's perfectly fair.

    Board presence is not the only win condition, nor should it be.

    Of course there were plenty of ways I could have won that match, but I didn't have those cards in hand, nor did my opponent had cards to counter my Ledros, as it happens in many matches.

    Ppl lose matches because they don't have the right answers to win at the right time, or else, by your logic, everyone could win every match and every card is good as it is.... as long as you have the answers at the right time...

    I never said that board presence should be the only winning condition, or else there was no use for burn spells to the Nexus, nor would Riot print burn spells targeting "anything", they would just target units (if board presence was the only winning condition).

    Don't get me wrong, I understand your logic, but sometimes a Ruination saves your day.... but only if you draw it... if you don't... you can lose.

    When I said "it's kinda not fair", it was what I felt, as the winning player, when dropping that card, it was way to powerfull on it's own... but obviously, that doesn't mean that there aren't cards to counter it, they exist... but you gotta have them in your hand, that's obvious.

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  • OldManSanns's Avatar Explorer of Dragons 435 553 Posts Joined 08/05/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From franky
    I'll give you a practical example why this card needs some changes.
    I had a game where opponent was with a full board of tokens/creatures max power 2.
    He was at 15 health, I was at 5 and I only had 1 unit on my board.
    I was gonna lose, as simple as that.
    I dropped Ledros, I attacked, I won.
    It's kinda not fair.

    She Who Wanders would have basically had the same effect, no?  :-)  Perhaps it would have taken a few additional rounds, but I'm guessing it still he had no way to recover from that play effect.

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  • Thonson's Avatar Devoted Academic 655 792 Posts Joined 03/24/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    As a Hearthstone player, this card makes me think if Anub'arak was a good card, what would it's effect be?  Granted the effect can be very effective in the right situation, in HS the 9 mana minion slow is often one where you either 1) have a powerful effect with an immediate impact or 2) use it as some sort of combo piece.  Otherwise, it's usually too slow.

    In essence, Ledros is kind of like this.  The low health means it can die easily, but it has been given a very powerful effect!  I have played him some for this effect alone, but have yet to play him with my opponent at 1 HP.  Didn't know that was the result.  However, now that I know that I'm not really sure how I feel about it.  Going from 1 to zero isn't really cutting in half, it's dealing 1 damage.  Perhaps the solution is just to specify "cut the enemy Nexus health in half, but not less than 1."  So ultimately you get the same effect, rounding down UNTIL the opponent is at 1 HP.

    But also, unless this becomes a very common strategy with people abusing the power of Ledros to win games at an impressively high win rate, or unless the entire meta of the game is forming around stopping Ledros, I'd say leave it.  The Runterra team seems set on frequent balance patches and will likely make a change when, or if it's ever needed.

    I never lose, I just win at having fun.

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  • franky's Avatar 50 15 Posts Joined 02/03/2020
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From OldManSanns
    Quote From franky
    I'll give you a practical example why this card needs some changes.
    I had a game where opponent was with a full board of tokens/creatures max power 2.
    He was at 15 health, I was at 5 and I only had 1 unit on my board.
    I was gonna lose, as simple as that.
    I dropped Ledros, I attacked, I won.
    It's kinda not fair.

    She Who Wanders would have basically had the same effect, no?  :-)  Perhaps it would have taken a few additional rounds, but I'm guessing it still he had no way to recover from that play effect.

    Indeed, but that would have to be 2 turns later, where I would be dead already. And that would be 2 more cards to draw, where he could draw Decimate and Blade's Edge and in that case he didn't even need to attack or a board at all.

    That's why I gave a practical example, and not an assuming one. Because when we enter the realm of assumptions, everything is possible ;)

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  • FortyDust's Avatar 165 283 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago

    While I don't agree with some of the reasoning in this thread, I have to concur with the overall sentiment.

    If you look at all the 8-mana followers in the game, it's very obvious that Ledros is just plain super-crazy. As in, I can't believe they printed this crazy garbage crazy.

    • Roughly the same stats as other 8-drops
    • Immediately deals direct damage to enemy nexus (up to 10 damage!)
    • Returns to hand and can be resummoned for infinite value, infinite direct damage (expensive, but infinite nonetheless)
    • Fearsome, so impossible to chump block
    • Very few ways in the entire game to keep him from coming back

    Even if he cost 10 mana, I might still consider him problematic.

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  • DoubleSummon's Avatar 910 1712 Posts Joined 03/25/2019
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From Thonson

    As a Hearthstone player, this card makes me think if Anub'arak was a good card, what would it's effect be?  Granted the effect can be very effective in the right situation, in HS the 9 mana minion slow is often one where you either 1) have a powerful effect with an immediate impact or 2) use it as some sort of combo piece.  Otherwise, it's usually too slow.

    In essence, Ledros is kind of like this.  The low health means it can die easily, but it has been given a very powerful effect!  I have played him some for this effect alone, but have yet to play him with my opponent at 1 HP.  Didn't know that was the result.  However, now that I know that I'm not really sure how I feel about it.  Going from 1 to zero isn't really cutting in half, it's dealing 1 damage.  Perhaps the solution is just to specify "cut the enemy Nexus health in half, but not less than 1."  So ultimately you get the same effect, rounding down UNTIL the opponent is at 1 HP.

    But also, unless this becomes a very common strategy with people abusing the power of Ledros to win games at an impressively high win rate, or unless the entire meta of the game is forming around stopping Ledros, I'd say leave it.  The Runterra team seems set on frequent balance patches and will likely make a change when, or if it's ever needed.

    If Anub'arak would cut the enemy hp in half, and had taunt(every unit that can block in runetterra has essentially taunt)  be sure he would see play in Rogue.

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  • BlueSpark's Avatar 140 193 Posts Joined 01/27/2020
    Posted 5 months, 3 weeks ago
    Quote From FortyDust

    If you look at all the 8-mana followers in the game, it's very obvious that Ledros is just plain super-crazy. As in, I can't believe they printed this crazy garbage crazy.

    While I have to disclaim that I've never played Ledros or had him played against me, from a theoretical standpoint, I'm definitely with you. Strong burn effect + strong statline with Fearsome + auto-recycle on death seems very overbearing.

    Honestly, he'd probably be fine if they ditched his Last Breath effect entirely. Or at least have him halve his own stats every time he dies and returns to hand.

    Another crazy idea: Upon summoning, after burning the enemy nexus, let him deal the same amount of damage to himself.

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