Fixing Lee - The Low Winrate Problem

  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Everybody knows that Lee Sin is a top tier card along with the new bastion but for whatever reason the decks all have a below 50 percent winrate currently, indicating that A these lists are super hard to pilot or B the lists are not properly optimized.

    Either way there are solutions that can fix both of these issues.

    The first is tempo Lee/Zed similar to the old stand alone lists, you essentially present a big impossible to remove body that swings for lethal.

    https://lor.mobalytics.gg/decks/code/CIBQCAICBEBAEAQBAYDQGCITDMRSSM2WLQBAEAICBQ3QEAYJGBKQEAIBAISQCAYJMA

    It runs tools like goat and mentor, and it's a list that was popularized by Swim

    Only issue is that it also has a 47 percent winrate due to either being unoptimized or too big brained for the average player

    But nobody has explored Lee's control potential, what if instead of being all in on tempo in Targon, a region that's really bad at tempo

    We went the opposite direction, we went control. Well what are good control cards in Targon/Ionia

    You have Karma or you have Asol.

    I think control Lee hasn't really been explored and I'd like everyone to post their ideas down bellow.

    Here's one to get started

    pure cancer
    A Runeterra Deck created by Nifty129. Last updated 2 years, 2 months ago
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  • CursedParrot's Avatar 635 698 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Interesting! From the way that the community has been saying "Lee Sin OP, it's Tier 0" I had assumed that it was an extremely powerful and easy to pilot deck. 

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  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    It feels op to play against. It's a combo deck that creates a lot of no win situations.

    It's like aww geeze a 4/5 zed with overwhelm that will never be removed I auto win for sure

    Or it's aww geeze my zed just got mystic shotted into a thermo which was enough to get rid of spell shield now I can't win.

    Or it's aww geeze I literally didn't draw any combo pieces after a muligan and now I just loose, but I won't count that.

    It's called statistical variance vs. perception and it's very hard to account for without looking at the bigger picture

    Also stuff like frostbite decks are a great counter, even if lee has barrier if you frosbite him into a rimefang wolf he auto dies

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  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    So people have found out that invoking was the key to fixing Lee.

    While Sol might have been overkill

    Instead they are just running behold the infinite, so you can jam a big dude if your primary game plan doesn't work out.

    This has upped the winrate of the list to 53 percent so not bad.

    Once again right idea wrong card inclusion

    meta lee
    A Runeterra Deck created by Nifty129. Last updated 2 years, 2 months ago
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    This combines the best elements of Lee Zed and solo Lee and is my own take on it

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1175 1803 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    The decreased win rate has nothing to do with the card's power level, which is still absurd.

    It has everything to do with the fact that Lee Sin exploded in popularity when he was buffed, and again when Bastion was buffed. When a card becomes so popular that it represents 30% to 40% of your matchups, it makes sense that people will start to choose decks to counter it. So now everyone is running anti-Lee Sin decks, which is naturally going to cause that card's win rate to drop below 50 percent.

    This is called "warping the meta," by the way, and it's a sign that the card in question isn't particularly healthy for the game. This is especially true when you're dealing with a polarizing "feels bad" card like Lee Sin.

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  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Typically the strongest decks have no counter and represent a 59 percent winrate.

    Which we have seen with every bilgewater noxious deck.

    Let's see what cards get released in 2 weeks before we just gut Ionia all over again

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  • FortyDust's Avatar Pumpkin 1175 1803 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago
    Quote From Nifty129

    Typically the strongest decks have no counter and represent a 59 percent winrate.

    Which we have seen with every bilgewater noxious deck.

    Let's see what cards get released in 2 weeks before we just gut Ionia all over again

    Reverting the Lee Sin buff would not "gut Ionia." If it does, the problem is the rest of Ionia. The entire region should not have to be carried by one Champion.

    But that's not really the case. Karma remains extremely strong, even though no one has bothered making her a new deck since her sidekick Ezreal got nerfed. Yasuo is still great with both Swain and Leona, and Shen and Lulu have been seeing a lot of play lately (both together and separately) as people explore Support possibilities.

    In fact, Shen and Lulu are being held back by Lee Sin because they both get murdered by him, so yeah, it would be better for Ionia to revert the buff. He was always fine at 6 mana, and there was absolutely no reason to make him a faster card.

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  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Like I agree that I like those champs I just don't think they are goooood per say.

    I would see Lee landing at 5 mana ultimately but then they would buff his stats so it's hard to say if that would help.

    Statistically speaking, Ionia was the worst region in terms of win rate, that's just math.

    They nerfed Karma hard and she never fully recovered.

    They nerfed Ezreal he's not going to be the go to combo champ anymore

    So right now we have Lee, or we just go back to the control/aggro meta before the buff, and that was a little boring.

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  • CursedParrot's Avatar 635 698 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    I feel like Lee Sin just needs to be nerfed because he's overplayed, just like how Deep was nerfed even when it wasn't very good.

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  • Nifty129's Avatar 390 643 Posts Joined 05/29/2020
    Posted 2 years, 2 months ago

    Possible, the number 1 consideration for Riot should always be the playability of of their games. If everyone hates Ionia/Targon as an archetype that's a good enough reason to kill it.

    People like pirates and bilgewater so it's champs haven't been touched since launch.

    but then you can't really be surprised when you end up in aggro or control heavy situations when that's what you are asking for.

    I was kinda over the whole play ramp or play bilgewater thing so I liked a change of pace.

    But sure we can go back, hopefully the new cards will be enough to change things up on their own.

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  • Lionel136's Avatar 60 4 Posts Joined 09/21/2020
    Posted 2 years, 1 month ago

    He's overplayed because he's incredibly strong for a 4 mana champ, and on top of that he's so easy to enable that even a toddler could do it. If he gets nerfed, which he probably will, it'll be because he's unhealthy to the game, which he currently is as the majority of decks right now are anti-lee sin. When a single champion causes the meta to warp this much, you know there's something wrong with them. He requires some tuning down.

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