Play control shaman, run Perpetual Flame and laugh as you clear their entire board and half their hand for 1 mana (Overload isn't real).
Haha, I've been on the receiving end of a few full-board clears from Perpetual Flame and can vouch for how salty that can make an opponent feel! I think I might need to experience this satisfaction against DR DH myself; is there a list you've been having fun with or would recommend?
If you're playing control, and aren't priest, then sadly there's very little you can do but hope they don't get their curve for Skull of Gul'dan, [Hearthstone Card (deathspeaker blackthorn) Not Found], and Illidari Inquisitor. After that, pray that they don't discover Felosophy or are playing the late game deathrattle deck. Basically, you're playing a very bad matchup is what I'm trying to say.
On the question of whether to crack the boars or to leave them be, that will depend very much on the number of cards your opponent has in hand, but in most cases its better to simply kill the boar because nearly all outcomes will result in you taking 3 damage anyway. But if you're playing for tempo its pretty much a guessing game, very much dependent on your handreading skills.
Thanks for your analysis dapperdog! I agree that it's an unfavored match-up and you're right that it can become unwinnable if they curve out well so it may not be worth over-analyzing.
As for the boars, you're spot on in saying that there are many factors that play into that decision so there probably isn't a one-size-fits-all strategy. My general approach has been to treat them like Secrets, only playing into them if I have an answer ready for the minion summoned, but I should give the killing off immediately strategy a go more often and see how it works out. The situation I find myself in most frequently is:
And then my choice is between spending a spell to clear the boar or trying to develop something like Wandmaker if it's my Turn 2 or Mankrik if it's my Turn 3
So if they go first they'll have 3 cards in hand and if they go 2nd they'll have 4 cards, but in both cases they'll have an extra DR card drawn from Tuskpiercer.
If they don't get Tuskpiercer in the mulligan, it's often Hero Power on Turn 1 so they'd have 4 or 5 cards in hand after T2 depending on if they went 1st or 2nd. In this case I don't know for sure that they have a DR in hand, but the odds seem likely given the kept rate of Razorfen Beastmaster and Sneaky Delinquent.
But you're right that whether I pop or not I'm almost always looking at a 3-damage threat so the only really bad outcome is when Beastmaster gets summoned as that can let them cheat out even more mana on their next turn. On the flip side, waiting allows them to play their 2/3-mana DR minion of choice from hand and then target something else with the boar's DR.
Thanks again for your analysis; it's been great food-for-thought!
I just wanted to pick the community's brain on how y'all approach playing against DR DH as a Control or Midrange deck. I find this match-up awkward to navigate and could use some help.
At first I tried to constantly keep the board clear, but my current strategy has been to ignore their summoning minions like Razorboar and Razorfen Beastmaster while playing my early small minions and going face. At the same time I save my removal for a bigger swing turn later. My rationale has been:
I'd rather they kill off their own minions so that I can deal with the stuff they summon on the following turn instead of allowing them to attack with slightly larger threats
They don't usually run much healing so early dmg can help set up lethal later as even when you survive the initial waves of DR minions there's always Illidari Inquisitor lurking to kill you on Turn 8 and again on Turn 9 via N'Zoth
Ugh, after some bad beats from a few of the cards listed below I wanted to pour out some pent-up Standard mode salt. However, I know nothing about game balance so this is more of a cursing into the void than trying to start a discussion (hence the salt thread).
Cards that make me salty whenever I see them because I've felt they're too strong for the mana cost from Day 1:
Similarly, there are cards I've felt are mistakes not because of their inherent strength, but because they limit the design space/are always on the verge of causing a salt storm:
Nice one! Gonna try this out as soon as I can, I love me some Kael'thas decks :)
Thanks for giving it a shot! :D
Would definitely be interested to hear what tweaks work best for folks. I'm currently questioning running 2 copies of both Serpentbloom and Resizing Pouch and have had a mixed experience with Archdruid Naralex (although the refill is nice given Hunter's struggles with draw).
I love this idea! Pulling off the combo as early as turn 8 is super cool, but realistically that won't happen often. How about adding a Primordial Protector? This can give us significant board presence on turn 8, and ensure Nagrand Slam is in hand for the combo later on.
Thanks for checking out the deck!
I made some significant changes to the build to survive the early game better while retaining the T8 combo, but I think you're right that the most viable version of this will abandon that completely in favor of a more reliable T9 swing turn.
I was excited to see this card simply for the Kael'thas Sunstrider activator potential :D
In reality, I think we'll see this most common as a result of Wandmaker generating Resizing Pouch which can then guarantee Serpentbloom when played on 1-mana.
A good read as always and the comedy nuggets are much appreciated!
I admit that I haven't tried out Vol'jin since early in the expansion, but I could see him being pretty useful in the current meta even as a defensive option and that versatility is appealing. I've been kinda tempted to give a DR DH with N'Zoth a go, so I might throw him in this list and see what happens!
I check the site a few times a day while procrastinating on work for news updates on HS mostly. ~80% of my HS consumption is here and the rest is on the Competitive HS Reddit page so I can learn how the enemy thinks ;D
I really enjoy the articles here and leave a comment once in awhile if I feel like someone hasn't already said it better (in which case I just upvote). The same goes for the forums which I check pretty regularly.
My favorite part of the game is theorycrafting and refining off-meta (Hunter) decks through trial-and-error. As such I try to avoid viewing other decks early in an expansion and then start looking through ones with guides later for ideas I might've missed. I try to post a couple successful(?) archetypes with guides each expansion.
I used to avoid the ladder, but the old deck building challenge on HP got me motivated to reach Rank 10 each season so I could participate. I've stuck with that goal ever since and meme to D10 in the current system with the occasional grind to D5 if I feel bad playing something in Casual. (Got there this season with a Primordial Hunter, but at the cost of hating Paladin ;P )
My nostalgia for the old game thread led me to try to create a version here, but I quickly learned how hard it was to keep up with even a weekly post and closed shop. This makes me especially appreciative of the mods who write weekly articles because I know they put a lot of work into them and I'm sure there are plenty of weeks they really don't have the time but still come up with something for us.
Overall, I really like the atmosphere here and try to contribute to it in small ways when I can. A big thank you to Flux, the mods, and all of the users for making this a nice place to visit.
I did all three Hunter, Druid and Warrior, but now I´m stuck at Rogue, cause I didn´t check the cards first and now I´ve found out that I´m missing two key epics: Potion of Illusion and Bamboozle. Now I´m having a dilemma - is it worth to craft them in order to complete the puzzle and get the cardback? I don´t play the Rogue class at all, Potion of Illusion might be worth a craft, but I´m not really convinced to use 400 dust for Bamboozle. I was thinking about putting dicovering cards in the quest deck to find them, but it could take ages to get them that way. Might as well wait if I open them in packs? Does anyone know it I could possibly open the two in recent Year of the Phoenix packs? :/
Edit - Sorry for some of the duplicate info; I was too slow looking up cards, haha XD
Both cards are from sets released in the Year of the Phoenix so you should have a chance at them. However, IIRC, an epic is only guaranteed every 10 packs so the odds probably aren't in your favor.
Personally, I'd go the Discover route depending on your collection. Keep in mind that you can build a Wild deck so you have quite a few options.
In the rare case you have Keywarden Ivory, your odds of getting Potion of Illusion are pretty good. You could also roll the dice with a bunch of secrets if you have Shadowjeweler Hanar. There are a number of cards that will generate random Legendary minions which would give you a shot at these two, but they're probably not worth it if you have some of the cards listed below...
As you suspected, the typical method is by learning the current meta and making an educated guess based on the most popular Tier 1 and Tier 2 archetypes for a given class.
This applies even moreso to the Ladder as the higher you climb the more likely you are to run into exact copies of the top lists you see on sites like HSReplay. Combo is no different in this regard except that it isn't popular for many classes at the moment (though not too long ago I'd mulligan for a combo battle whenever I'd face Demon Hunter expecting an Il'gynoth OTK deck).
Personally, I keep in mind the "pocket meta" of where I'm at in terms of Ladder Rank/Casual MMR, but I'll also mulligan for cards based on what match-up I fear more (or what archetype(s) I'm "weaker" against in the parlance of this article). For example, let's say I'm playing a slower deck against Druid and Ramp Druids are popular at the moment. In this scenario I'll often still keep a wide-board removal option during the mulligan in the off-chance they're running Token Druid just because I can quickly lose against that match-up otherwise. Not claiming this is the optimal strategy from an expected win-rate POV, just my own preference for the mulligan.
Very cool idea! I didn't pay much attention to the Quilboar tag coming to constructed so I appreciate you highlighting it here. I don't have Plaguemaw atm, but if unpack him I'll defintely give this list a go. I also liked the changes to the article's format; keep up the great work!
Thanks for uploading this list and including your thoughts dapperdog!
I've been working on something similar all season and totally missed the Kindling Elemental synergy! I also liked your inclusion of Carrion Studies and have been enjoying the increased flexibility in lieu of running Death's Head Cultist and Taelan Fordring in every match-up :)
FWIW, over time I've cut Nagrand Slam from my list as the 10-mana minion pool felt weaker than the 8-mana pool with exception of Scrapyard Colossus. I feel like I'm winning about the same without senior Slam vs. Control, but I do run Yogg and Zixor so I still have a couple late-game options.
My goal has been to get to Diamond 10 with a meme Control Hunter (deck in signature) and Mage is obviously a rough match-up.
I'm at Platinum 4 after a losing streak and queue into a Mage who doesn't get the nut draw so I actually have a chance. I have him on the ropes at 6 HP with no board while I have 16 HP, mankrik's wife with 5 health left, a 1/1, and two 5/5 golems with Lifesteal.
He plays the hail mary Solarian Prime and the first 4 spells are just some minor board damage and a secret, but the last one is Potion of Illusion which allows him to play another Solarian Prime with his 1 leftover mana crystal. Naturally, the second Prime casts Refreshing Spring Water as well as another copy of Potion of Illusion which allows him to play two more copies of the Prime card and a whole bunch of bullshit ensues.
At the end of it all I'm left with a 3/5 on board and he's still at 6 HP so I figure I got a chance so long as one of his 3 randomly generated secrets isn't Ice Barrier. I push face and luck out as there's no barrier and he's down to 3 HP. I still have 2 copies of Quick Shot in my deck as well as Tracking and Barak Kodobane in hand. However, my hopes are for naught as both fail to find Quick Shot and I lose to a Mask of C'Thun the next turn...fucking Mage man...fucking Mage.
Update: After purging my salt here I went on a 3-game win streak and got to D10...thank you lucky salt thread, thank you!
Regarding Rush Warrior guides, I was reminded of this recent discussion where the OP included a bunch of helpful links in the post as well as the comments. For example, this guide outlines one player's experience navigating it to Legend with individual match-up breakdowns.
And then the OP linked to a bunch of YouTube guides you might find helpful too:
Old Guardian's Guide
And 3 guides from NohandsGamer, including one on the Priest match-up in particular.
For me, it didn't play like a true OTK deck but rather a chip them down early and then do 16 - 20 damage via Leoroxx deck (or the reverse with Leoroxx setting up a Piercing Shot and Quick Shot finish the next turn). It didn't feel overly strong, but still might be worth trying out as a change of pace.
As with any deck, there was a learning curve in deciding when/what to discover and how to prioritize the mulligan (definitely want Freezing Trap vs Rush Warrior and Pack Runner vs Paladin). I also wasn't sold on Zixor or the remaining copy of Ingenuity so there's room to personalize and someone in the comments suggested 2x Imprisoned Felmaw which makes sense based on my experience with the deck.
I'm not a fan of grinding the ladder, but if I play any more I'll be trying out this Legend Egg Hunter list that looks pretty fun. However, I'm cautiously optimistic about its competitive viability as it looks like the OP farmed Warlocks during his climb and those have been less common for me atm (would've loved to run into it more as OTK Hunter farmed them too!).
Seems like a really fun deck! I can't wait to try it once I get my second Primordial Protector from the rewards track that I'm still missing.
Thanks for taking the time to check this out!
I think the original list was a little more fun, but I tried to optimize it today after some more playtesting so that you have a better chance of making it to Turn 10 to praise Yogg (see the new notes at the top of the guide).
The biggest change was dropping Nagrand Slam as the 10-mana minion pool often results in a large pile of stats that the enemy can ignore, while the 8-mana pool offers the same but with more proactive options (and then you can play Jewel of N'Zoth immediately on the next turn whether you coin out Primordial Protector or not).
I hope you have fun with it and feel free to drop a comment with any changes you make!
Thanks a lot! I had to replace 2 cards but even still it's a super fun deck :D
Haha, I've been on the receiving end of a few full-board clears from Perpetual Flame and can vouch for how salty that can make an opponent feel! I think I might need to experience this satisfaction against DR DH myself; is there a list you've been having fun with or would recommend?
Thanks for your analysis dapperdog! I agree that it's an unfavored match-up and you're right that it can become unwinnable if they curve out well so it may not be worth over-analyzing.
As for the boars, you're spot on in saying that there are many factors that play into that decision so there probably isn't a one-size-fits-all strategy. My general approach has been to treat them like Secrets, only playing into them if I have an answer ready for the minion summoned, but I should give the killing off immediately strategy a go more often and see how it works out. The situation I find myself in most frequently is:
So if they go first they'll have 3 cards in hand and if they go 2nd they'll have 4 cards, but in both cases they'll have an extra DR card drawn from Tuskpiercer.
If they don't get Tuskpiercer in the mulligan, it's often Hero Power on Turn 1 so they'd have 4 or 5 cards in hand after T2 depending on if they went 1st or 2nd. In this case I don't know for sure that they have a DR in hand, but the odds seem likely given the kept rate of Razorfen Beastmaster and Sneaky Delinquent.
But you're right that whether I pop or not I'm almost always looking at a 3-damage threat so the only really bad outcome is when Beastmaster gets summoned as that can let them cheat out even more mana on their next turn. On the flip side, waiting allows them to play their 2/3-mana DR minion of choice from hand and then target something else with the boar's DR.
Thanks again for your analysis; it's been great food-for-thought!
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to pick the community's brain on how y'all approach playing against DR DH as a Control or Midrange deck. I find this match-up awkward to navigate and could use some help.
At first I tried to constantly keep the board clear, but my current strategy has been to ignore their summoning minions like Razorboar and Razorfen Beastmaster while playing my early small minions and going face. At the same time I save my removal for a bigger swing turn later. My rationale has been:
However, this obviously allows them to make favorable trades against my board early and it can be tough to clear everything later if they have taunts up from Renowned Performer/Death's Head Cultist or refill via Death Speaker Blackthorn.
Have you had success with a different strategy? Or, if you play DR DH, what sorts of control/midrange strategies give you the most trouble?
Thanks!
Ugh, after some bad beats from a few of the cards listed below I wanted to pour out some pent-up Standard mode salt. However, I know nothing about game balance so this is more of a cursing into the void than trying to start a discussion (hence the salt thread).
Cards that make me salty whenever I see them because I've felt they're too strong for the mana cost from Day 1:
Similarly, there are cards I've felt are mistakes not because of their inherent strength, but because they limit the design space/are always on the verge of causing a salt storm:
In contrast there are cards that raise my sodium when I face them but still feel fair for the mana cost:
Lastly there are cards that make me salty because I wanted them to rotate out of the core set/was tired of seeing them:
I would like to take the mothers of all of these cards out for a nice seafood dinner and then never call them again.
Thanks for giving it a shot! :D
Would definitely be interested to hear what tweaks work best for folks. I'm currently questioning running 2 copies of both Serpentbloom and Resizing Pouch and have had a mixed experience with Archdruid Naralex (although the refill is nice given Hunter's struggles with draw).
Thanks for checking out the deck!
I made some significant changes to the build to survive the early game better while retaining the T8 combo, but I think you're right that the most viable version of this will abandon that completely in favor of a more reliable T9 swing turn.
To accomplish this, I really like the suggestion of running Protector! So far I've played 5 games running the current list but swapping out Scavenger's Ingenuity + Jungle Panther for Kindling Elemental + Primordial Protector and have been really enjoying it :D
I was excited to see this card simply for the Kael'thas Sunstrider activator potential :D
In reality, I think we'll see this most common as a result of Wandmaker generating Resizing Pouch which can then guarantee Serpentbloom when played on 1-mana.
Jokes per minute: high
Potassium per card: higher
Opponent's cramps: low
Opponent's bowel movements: slow
Building around Clockwork Giant: unheard of
All of which combines to make probably my favorite article in the series! Great stuff sule :D
A good read as always and the comedy nuggets are much appreciated!
I admit that I haven't tried out Vol'jin since early in the expansion, but I could see him being pretty useful in the current meta even as a defensive option and that versatility is appealing. I've been kinda tempted to give a DR DH with N'Zoth a go, so I might throw him in this list and see what happens!
I'm similar to a lot of folks here:
Overall, I really like the atmosphere here and try to contribute to it in small ways when I can. A big thank you to Flux, the mods, and all of the users for making this a nice place to visit.
Edit - Sorry for some of the duplicate info; I was too slow looking up cards, haha XD
Both cards are from sets released in the Year of the Phoenix so you should have a chance at them. However, IIRC, an epic is only guaranteed every 10 packs so the odds probably aren't in your favor.
Personally, I'd go the Discover route depending on your collection. Keep in mind that you can build a Wild deck so you have quite a few options.
As you suspected, the typical method is by learning the current meta and making an educated guess based on the most popular Tier 1 and Tier 2 archetypes for a given class.
This applies even moreso to the Ladder as the higher you climb the more likely you are to run into exact copies of the top lists you see on sites like HSReplay. Combo is no different in this regard except that it isn't popular for many classes at the moment (though not too long ago I'd mulligan for a combo battle whenever I'd face Demon Hunter expecting an Il'gynoth OTK deck).
Personally, I keep in mind the "pocket meta" of where I'm at in terms of Ladder Rank/Casual MMR, but I'll also mulligan for cards based on what match-up I fear more (or what archetype(s) I'm "weaker" against in the parlance of this article). For example, let's say I'm playing a slower deck against Druid and Ramp Druids are popular at the moment. In this scenario I'll often still keep a wide-board removal option during the mulligan in the off-chance they're running Token Druid just because I can quickly lose against that match-up otherwise. Not claiming this is the optimal strategy from an expected win-rate POV, just my own preference for the mulligan.
Very cool idea! I didn't pay much attention to the Quilboar tag coming to constructed so I appreciate you highlighting it here. I don't have Plaguemaw atm, but if unpack him I'll defintely give this list a go. I also liked the changes to the article's format; keep up the great work!
Makes sense! I do miss running the big fella for the card itself, especially for that rare game where I run into a Celestial Alignment Druid :D
Thanks for uploading this list and including your thoughts dapperdog!
I've been working on something similar all season and totally missed the Kindling Elemental synergy! I also liked your inclusion of Carrion Studies and have been enjoying the increased flexibility in lieu of running Death's Head Cultist and Taelan Fordring in every match-up :)
FWIW, over time I've cut Nagrand Slam from my list as the 10-mana minion pool felt weaker than the 8-mana pool with exception of Scrapyard Colossus. I feel like I'm winning about the same without senior Slam vs. Control, but I do run Yogg and Zixor so I still have a couple late-game options.
Thanks again for the upload!
Just another case of Mage rage...
My goal has been to get to Diamond 10 with a meme Control Hunter (deck in signature) and Mage is obviously a rough match-up.
I'm at Platinum 4 after a losing streak and queue into a Mage who doesn't get the nut draw so I actually have a chance. I have him on the ropes at 6 HP with no board while I have 16 HP, mankrik's wife with 5 health left, a 1/1, and two 5/5 golems with Lifesteal.
He plays the hail mary Solarian Prime and the first 4 spells are just some minor board damage and a secret, but the last one is Potion of Illusion which allows him to play another Solarian Prime with his 1 leftover mana crystal. Naturally, the second Prime casts Refreshing Spring Water as well as another copy of Potion of Illusion which allows him to play two more copies of the Prime card and a whole bunch of bullshit ensues.
At the end of it all I'm left with a 3/5 on board and he's still at 6 HP so I figure I got a chance so long as one of his 3 randomly generated secrets isn't Ice Barrier. I push face and luck out as there's no barrier and he's down to 3 HP. I still have 2 copies of Quick Shot in my deck as well as Tracking and Barak Kodobane in hand. However, my hopes are for naught as both fail to find Quick Shot and I lose to a Mask of C'Thun the next turn...fucking Mage man...fucking Mage.
Update: After purging my salt here I went on a 3-game win streak and got to D10...thank you lucky salt thread, thank you!
Regarding Rush Warrior guides, I was reminded of this recent discussion where the OP included a bunch of helpful links in the post as well as the comments. For example, this guide outlines one player's experience navigating it to Legend with individual match-up breakdowns.
And then the OP linked to a bunch of YouTube guides you might find helpful too:
Old Guardian's Guide
I finally gave OTK Hunter a try and piloted it from D10 to D5 using this list and making the recommended changes - subbed Scrap Shot and 1 Scavenger's Ingenuity for 2 copies of Kolkar Pack Runner.
For me, it didn't play like a true OTK deck but rather a chip them down early and then do 16 - 20 damage via Leoroxx deck (or the reverse with Leoroxx setting up a Piercing Shot and Quick Shot finish the next turn). It didn't feel overly strong, but still might be worth trying out as a change of pace.
As with any deck, there was a learning curve in deciding when/what to discover and how to prioritize the mulligan (definitely want Freezing Trap vs Rush Warrior and Pack Runner vs Paladin). I also wasn't sold on Zixor or the remaining copy of Ingenuity so there's room to personalize and someone in the comments suggested 2x Imprisoned Felmaw which makes sense based on my experience with the deck.
I'm not a fan of grinding the ladder, but if I play any more I'll be trying out this Legend Egg Hunter list that looks pretty fun. However, I'm cautiously optimistic about its competitive viability as it looks like the OP farmed Warlocks during his climb and those have been less common for me atm (would've loved to run into it more as OTK Hunter farmed them too!).
Thanks for taking the time to check this out!
I think the original list was a little more fun, but I tried to optimize it today after some more playtesting so that you have a better chance of making it to Turn 10 to praise Yogg (see the new notes at the top of the guide).
The biggest change was dropping Nagrand Slam as the 10-mana minion pool often results in a large pile of stats that the enemy can ignore, while the 8-mana pool offers the same but with more proactive options (and then you can play Jewel of N'Zoth immediately on the next turn whether you coin out Primordial Protector or not).
I hope you have fun with it and feel free to drop a comment with any changes you make!