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ShadowsOfSense

Joined 10/23/2018 Achieve Points 1500 Posts 1111

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  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Thanks for all the thoughts!

    • I really don't think Meeting of Minds is busted as-is, but since it is intended to be a weaker card that simply introduces the mechanic, I could see it being increased to 3, or even 4. I think it'd be straight up unplayable at 4, but whatever.

    • Prosper in Peace is definitely one I was having a hard time balancing. Thinking more about it, 5 mana may be where it should sit - 2 undamaged minions and an undamaged hero is reasonable, right? Putting it at about a draw 3? I was too blinded by the comparison to Battle Rage to consider how they differ.

    • You got me; I'm the filthy Ice Block lover =P I'm fine with restricting the Barrier mechanic to just minions, though I think I'd lower Power Word: Barrier to 6 mana in that case. Doing that also opens up the idea of a Legendary in the future which specifically allows the mechanic on your hero, as a powerful example of it.

    • Prophet Velen is removed because I don't think the style of gameplay he encourages fits with my vision for the class. In a world where I kept him, I would restrict Holy Fire to minions only; I don't want Priest to be encouraged to throw spells at face. All their damaging spells would be restricted to minions from then on, because that style of combo gameplay isn't something I'd want to encourage.

    • I never considered keeping Divine Spirit, but I suppose I could see a different version of a Health buff making the cut instead. Perhaps an AoE Health increase, in place of maybe Shadow Madness?

    • Mass Hysteria is in because the only other option of existing AoE was Lightbomb, and I felt Mass Hysteria was the better choice of the two. Every other AoE was either not mid-game or used a mechanic I didn't feel belonged (Psychic Scream and Dragonfire Potion, for example).

    I'll get working on some revisions of the cards.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Hello!

    Recently, over on our Discord we had a discussion about the Priest class, and how its Basic and Classic sets just kind of suck. It's even been mentioned by the Devs before that 'fixing' the Priest class may involve an overhaul of their Basic and Classic sets, rather than just some balance tweaks.

    This is my take on that overhaul.

    I wasn't sure how to format this at first, but I think I'll tackle this in three parts: first, I'll show you the cards that I'll be removing completely from the Basic and Classic sets, with reasoning; second, I'll show off my revised Basic set and walk you through the changes; third, I'll show you my revised Classic set, also walking you through the changes.

    For some card replacements, I created entirely new cards; some cards have instead been plucked from previous expansions.

    Part 1: Those We Left Behind

    Cards Removed From The Priest's Basic and Classic Sets

    Radiance Card Image Northshire Cleric Card Image Mind Vision Card Image Holy Smite Card Image

    Divine Spirit Card Image Holy Nova Card Image Inner Fire Card Image Lightspawn Card Image

    Lightwell Card Image Auchenai Soulpriest Card Image Shadowform Card Image Mindgames Card Image

    Prophet Velen Card Image

    Now, a lot of people are going to look at that list and scream "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?" - which, first of all, rude, and second of all, fair. There's a lot of tried and true Priest cards on that list, many of which people don't really complain about. I'll go through them one by one.

    Radiance - This is a bad card. An aggressively bad card. Priests do not need this aggressively bad card. They need a better card.

    Northshire Cleric - The Cleric is a strong, strong card. It's one of the last unnerfed powerful 1-drops from the early days of Hearthstone. I don't want to take this card away from Wild players by nerfing it, which is what I would do were I to keep it. I'm introducing a different kind of draw card that plays more into the style of gameplay I want to encourage from Priest - a style of gameplay that I fear would allow an unnerfed Cleric to be too strong.

    Mind Vision - I'm replacing this with a different card that I think can be expanded upon better. This is a fairly bad card - and to be honest, so is the replacement - but that's ok. I just want a different bad card in its place.

    Holy Smite - Not a fan of positioning Priest as a spell-burst combo class. Play with that in Wild; this Priest is doing something different.

    Divine Spirit - Haha this would be kind of nuts with some of the stuff I'm giving them. As one half of one of the most tired combos in the game, this card can go.

    Holy Nova - This is a bad board clear. They deserve a better one, and they don't need this one sitting there looking ass.

    Inner Fire - Oh hey, the other half of the combo! This card can also leave, thank you. Attack buffing is not something I think Priest should have - I'd rather they just get minions with some more Attack than rely on cards like this.

    Lightspawn - It just doesn't really fit the theme much anymore. I could honestly have kept it, and it was touch and go for a while, but in the end I decided to include more changes.

    Lightwell - Bad card, didn't want it in my set, simple as that.

    Auchenai Soulpriest - I don't like that this is a permanent shift as long as she remains on the board. I've replaced it with a different card which grants the effect for a turn, so the combo with Circle of Healing remains, but I just prefer it not be on a body like this.

    Shadowform - It's just a bad card. I'm sorry. I want it to work too, but I'm not buffing it or putting synergy for it in Basic or Classic, so it can leave.

    Mindgames - Bad, weird card. We have plenty of representation of their thieving abilities, we can do better than this.

    Prophet Velen - Hot take: I removed a bunch of the direct face damaging cards (and Blizzard already started this by chucking Mind Blast) so the original point of Velen is kind of lost in this new redesign. Tear up Wild with your combo decks, but he's not needed here anymore.

    Part 2: Back to Basics

    The New and Improved Basic Set

    While you look at that, I suppose I should explain my vision for the Priest Class. I imagine a Priest Class who is the king of the board - they have big minions which they can beef up or protect, which they then use to knock out your minions and slowly chip away at your health. They can also get tricksy, stealing or outright destroying their enemy's minions. This is not a class of waiting to draw into your combo pieces - it's a class of outliving and outlasting the opponent, of answering their threats and whittling them down.

    Now, some card explanations!

    Holy Alignment - Oh look! A replacement for Holy Smite! This one doesn't do face damage, but offers the versatility of healing a friendly minion by a small amount if that is needed to help a favourable trade.

    Power Word: Shield - Strong card, follows what I want from the class. I see this as an absolute win.

    Battle Medic - A Vanilla 2/4 for (2)? Blasphemy! This is the sort of card I think Priest can safely have when they're not hampered by silly things like Divine Spirit or Inner Fire. Is this strictly better than Nat, the Darkfisher? Yes. Do I care? No.

    Meeting of Minds - Remember that Mind Vision replacement I talked about? Uh… here. I don't think this is particularly good, but it shows a mechanical idea - of gaining knowledge from the opponent directly, of choosing cards to take - that I'd quite like to see more of.

    Shadow Word: Pain - Good card. Solid stay.

    Prosper in Peace - It's Reverse Battle Rage! Priest needed some more card draw since I denied them Northshire Cleric, and this feels appropriate for what I want their gameplan to be. Stay healthy, get wealthy!

    Shadow Word: Death - Good card. Solid stay.

    Power Word: Barrier - Ah, a new(ish) mechanic! Being able to reduce the damage dealt to their minions (and even themselves) feels very appropriately Priest. In some cases, it might simply work like a single-turn Immunity for the characters that it covers, which is why this is costed so conservatively - it could save a large board for you to swing with.

    Soul Survivor - Another reliable minion that Priest can get when not hampered by the dreaded combo. This is actually weaker than Ancient of War, but I think given the class tools available to Priest, and of course the rarity difference, the difference in mana costs is appropriate.

    Mind Control - It's Mind Control. It's iconic. It's not always very good, but it sets the stage for similar effects.

    EDITOR'S NOTE: Balance changes - Meeting of Minds increased to (3), from (2); Prosper in Peace increased to (5), from (3); Power Word: Barrier decreased to (6), from (7), and now only affects friendly minions instead of characters. 

    Part 3: Classical Conditioning

    The New and Improved Classic Set

    Circle of Healing - A strong card by itself which also has combo potential. Works well with the plan to overwhelm on board by sheer bulk.

    Silence - Strong tech card on occasion. Leads into later silence-related gameplay well.

    Penance - Our first borrowed card. This is a simple, strong piece of minion control that I think would be well-suited to the Classic set. Not much more to say, beyond mentioning that I think including things like Lifesteal or Discover in the Classic set is fine - we already have Poisonous.

    Thoughtsteal - Is it good? Not really. Does it represent a mechanic I like and would enjoy seeing more of in future expansions? Absolutely. Not every card needs to be a 10/10 hit.

    Darkshire Alchemist - Strong single target heal. Again, it can be comboed to deal damage, but in general it just works with my outlasting gameplay I want to encourage.

    Temple Enforcer - Simple health buff. Not too strong, but reliable and emblematic of something I want to see.

    Barrier Priest - An expansion on the Barrier concept. Can be used to potentially save a single minion for a turn; to defend your hero in a pinch; or to hide behind a Taunt in the hopes of no targeted removal. I even let it target enemy characters for some sort of nonsense - make 'em overdraw a ton with their Acolyte of Pain or something =P

    Mass Dispel - Solid area silence. Little bit of additional draw. Nothing fancy, but a solid card.

    Shadow Madness - An expansion on the stealing concept that works quite nicely, I feel. Didn't see a need to remove it, but not one I'm particularly attached to either.

    Mass Hysteria - The replacement for Holy Nova, so that Priest doesn't need to keep getting strong board clear after strong board clear. Plays well with the idea that you would have high Health minions. I changed the art because it felt quite expansion-specific, but really it doesn't need it.

    Holy Fire - Technically a small buff here, but I figured if we were adding Penance we may as well. A little bit of reach or some more minion damage, as needed.

    Embrace the Shadow - Combo time! This feels much better as a Classic card than Auchenai Soulpriest to me. It's more obviously a combo piece, rather than a weird inbetween, and its lower cost allows you more flexibility in how you play afterwards.

    Holy Guardian - Strong Health gaining target, like a reverse Holy Champion. As I said, I prefer Health buffs than Attack buffs in Priest, which is why I made this card instead of just taking Champion in. Could maybe use a numbers tweak, but the overall design is one I'm pleased with.

    Cabal Shadow Priest - More stealing, more fun! Solid card with an interesting effect to get players excited to pull of a weird play with it.

    Alonsus Faol - I thought long and hard about the Legendary to include in the Classic set. It needed to be something that was 'game-ending' - something that represented a power-spike when it entered, rather than a combo piece or simple good card. I almost went with Catrina Muerte, to give Resurrect some representation in basically its most balanced card, but the flavour isn't quite right. No other existing cards felt right, so I had to make one up; using a prominent lore character, we get an extremely strong heal which can allow you to wipe a board favourably and then remain completely healthy afterwards. Not your traditional game-ender, but then, Priest isn't trying to win in a traditional way.

    EDITOR'S NOTE: Balance changes - Barrier Priest can now only target minions instead of characters.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    To be fair to them, the reason they gave wasn't that people would be confused by frequent changes, but that someone having their favourite deck nerfed frequently wouldn't want to play the game anymore.

    Thankfully, they seem to have concluded that the number of people who would leave over frequent changes is far smaller than those who would be happy to see them, even if it means seeing their favourite deck nerfed.

    I do appreciate them being more candid with their reasoning - it feels like a lot of the 'too confusing' answers previously were PR talk trying to dance around why or why not they were actually doing something.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    3/7 of the nerfs this time weren't Mana increases. 2/4 nerfs last time weren't Mana increases. They've actually been doing less Mana increases recently than previously. Mana increases tended to be the most common way they nerfed a card (and there's a reason for that) but it's far from the only way.

    Mana increases are the most efficient way of nerfing cards; it's an important stat to hit while still maintaining the card's effect. One of the most famous 'nuke-from-orbit' nerfs, Warsong Commander, was so poorly received in part because the card doesn't function in the same way at all anymore. That it's now a garbage tier card as well is just icing on top.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Yeah, this article was actually finished shortly before the nerfs were announced - still, since it has no nerfed cards in it you can take it for a spin pre or post nerfs, and see how it fares in the new meta too!

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    We'd be waiting another two weeks to see what effect those cards would have, which feels too long, especially with how many cards they nerfed.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Dragonqueen Alexstrasza is having its effect changed so that it can no longer generate itself in a patch later this week.

    How do you feel about this change?

    Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Necrium Apothecary is having its mana cost increased to 5, from 4, in a patch later this week.

    How do you feel about this change?

    Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Invocation of Frost is having its mana cost increased to 2, from 1, in a patch later this week.

    How do you feel about this change?

    Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Dragon's Pack is having the buff it gives reduced to +2/+2, from +3/+3, in a patch later this week.

    How do you feel about this change?

    Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Ancharrr is having its durability reduced to 2, from 3, in a patch later this week.

    How do you feel about this change?

    Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.

    In reply to Card Nerf - Ancharrr
  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Scion of Ruin is having its mana cost increased to 4, from 3, in a patch later this week.

    How do you feel about this change?

    Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Fiendish Rites is having its mana cost increased to 4, from 3, in a patch later this week.

    How do you feel about this change?

    Once these changes are live, players will be able to disenchant the adjusted cards for their full Arcane Dust value for two weeks.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    Love a good Seb McKinnon art piece. Like Matt Dixon for Hearthstone, you can just tell when something is by him, and I've yet to see a piece I haven't adored.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
    Quote From KANSAS
    Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

    I tried the Nozdormu + Ysera Unleashed combo, where you could skip your opponent's turn by having the dream portal animations use all their time.

    Wait, how does that work? Do you play Ysera unleashed and then hope your opponent plays nozdormu? Or do you try and get both Nozdormu and Ysera off of random effects and then do some weird something or other with Treachery as a warlock? Or . . .?

    Nah you dicount either Ysera or NOz with Dreampetal, have an Innervate ready and then play them when your deck is empty. Then you wait until the rope is almost done and play Excess Mana that you got from Wild Growth at 10 mana. The ensuing 9 portals will skip your opponent's turn.

    I'd be wary of doing that. Intentionally abusing animation issues like that is a surefire way to get the ban hammer from Blizz.

    As for the OP, that is one of the stranger bugs I've heard of.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago
    Quote From Rippy
    Quote From ArngrimUndying

    Show Spoiler

    I'm not sure you can do this kind of "analytics" with the methodology you briefly describe. Mainly because cards aren't created in a vacuum and the stronger cards tend to be highly synergistic with strong decks and/or in relations to standing/future "counter-cards", regardless of their overall "face strength".

    To use your example:

    Dragon's Pack is a spell, so can be stopped entirely by Counterspell. Scion of Ruin has no such "total" counter.

    Additionally, Scion being a dragon means you have an innate tribal synergy (think of all the "if you're holding a dragon" cards or War Master Voone for examples) that you don't account for in your "EV." Also, Dragon Pack synergizes with the Evoke mechanic ONLY, whereas Scion can also synergize with the playing of Galakrond itself - i.e. be drawn/given +4/+4 so then you get three 7/6s with rush for 3 mana.

    So to say that the Pack is "1.5 EV stronger" is based on an incomplete methodology.

    You're right, but I'm considering the cards as standalones. I'm not taking in consideration synergies or counters.

    I've compared 2 cards with the same condition to make a comparasion of their "vanilla" value. I would like to put the focus on the card itself and not on the possible interaction between other cards.

    If you're comparing their "vanilla" value, Dragon's Pack costs (1) more than Saronite Chain Gang for the same stats, and is clearly the worse card.

    You can't consider the Invoke cards for Dragon's Pack and not the myriad synergies for the other cards; I'm sure you'll still find that Dragon's Pack is overtuned, but it's a disingenuous comparison as it stands.

    Even just between Dragon's Pack and Scion of Ruin, you have to consider the other variables surrounding them - cards in a vacuum mean nothing. Dragon's Pack is in the class with the strongest Invoke effect and Invokers, but Scion of Ruin gives you Dragon synergies, Handbuff synergies, Rush synergies etc. Even just Rush vs Taunt is important.

    In reply to The Balance in HS
  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    They definitely recently added a new sorting method in the bottom left - where you can sort by sets - that let you see recently changed cards, but it doesn't seem to have been activated for these changes.

    I don't remember when it was last there for changes, just that it was a thing at some point. They should bring that back.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 4 months ago

    I'm convinced that the only reason they even managed to fit this patch in is because they were going to do a small Battlegrounds update to coincide with the release of Dame Hazelbark to the store.

    They just added in these nerfs to that patch, which is why they're so tentative - they can't go screwing around too much, because if they fuck up badly they're literally not working over the holidays and won't be able to fix it.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 5 months ago

    I love this take on an alternate ending. I too was expecting something more Old Gods related, because right now Lazul's motivations seem more random than Hagatha's are.

    Hopefully the final adventure gives us some better insight into what she was thinking.

  • ShadowsOfSense's Avatar
    1500 1111 Posts Joined 10/23/2018
    Posted 4 years, 5 months ago

    The game is built and balanced around having a 30 card deck. Just like having 30 life, it's one of the foundations of the game that can't be tweaked without throwing everything out of balance.

    As an additional for-fun side thing? Sure, we can try it out and see if people like it. As a fundamental change to the way the game functions? Absolutely not.

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