I see how Elusive is a mechanic that can be uninteractive, as it bypasses normal unit combat, but I don't think that can be fixed by changing the elusive keyword to only work on one strike/round. Instead, I think it would make more sense to change the most powerful elusive cards to have interesting conditions (making elusive a keyword that is rarely permanently put on a unit). For example:
1. Zap Sprayfin and Wiggly Burblefish elusive changed to "when you cast a spell, give me elusive this round" or maybe "when you Attune, give me elusive this round"
2. Sparklefly changed to "when you play a Celestial, give me Elusive this round."
Although I do think that these specific changes would be good for the game (the elusives I listed above are a bit too good and boring to play), I think that elusive sort of has to stay the way it is in order for a lot of champions to make sense. Off of the top of my head, all of these cards would need to be reworked if Elusive were changed:
1. Sumpworks Map
2. Teemo
3. Zoe
4. Ezreal
5. Young Witch
6. Lounging Lizard
7. Fae Guide
8. Sumpsnipe Scavenger
9. Subpurrsible
10. Nyandriod
11. Abyssal Eye
All of these cards rely on have permanent elusive to either get consistent Nexus Strikes or act as a win condition for the deck. One great example of this is Nyandriod. Without permanent elusive, it doesn't work as a win condition to try to slow buff up your Nyandriod over time. Although this strategy isn't very interactive, it still adds something new to the game that is different to play and play against. Against a devoted elusive deck, you know that you won't be able to stop them from damaging you by playing units without Challenger, so you play differently. Ultimately, what makes card games replayable is the vast variety of different-feeling games that you can play depending on the cards drawn and the decks that you face. By removing the elusive strategy, the game would lose one of these unique play patterns. It is because of this reason that I don't hate the idea of archetypes like Burn Aggro or TF Go Hard, because even though they can feel annoying to play against, as long as they keep a low playrate they ultimately add more to the game than they take away. Because of this, although I think that certain elusives are too good and deserve nerfs, I don't think that elusive as a mechanic should be reworked or removed from the game.
yes now that is how open for fair discussion by offering different solutions that either side can try to agree to. re initiating an elusive status by certain conditions is a fair and more meaningful play condition which i can agree is way better than an innate permanent status. as i mention before fizz and flight are more well designed cards to do so that devs should of done with most in the first place.
one thing you seem to misunderstand though is that im not asking for a removal of the mechanic im asking for it to have actual in depth plays rather than its only purpose is to hide all game which as you stated something to actually feel like im playing against something. when you mention champions that require to nexus hit by removing that elusive in permanent i think allow for new support cards in those decks like how darius has apprehend or nautilus has riptide (except actual good cards that ppl would use) or cards such as "if you control an elusive card deal 5 to an enemy" or a single combat version for cards that had elusive that game being able to nexus strike then grant + stats or even something like remove elusive off a card to capture and enemy to gain either their stat or keyword (these are random not to taken seriously but the idea is new ways to use elusives for more impactful plays). i never asked for elusives to be nerfed or removed i want them to be an actual more interactive meaningful mechanic but i think what holds it back from ever being able to do so is what i find a current lazy concept on only staying invisible just to be a random beater.
what you make a fair point is that sure maybe changing all at once will cause too much chaos that a few definitely need a tweak at a time but id atleast hope the devs even begin thinking about it at all because i think alot of it is wasted potential.
Why would wait until you draw staple cards? You can still play and attack with you own unit that would force the elusive player to either take the damage or sacrifice their own units. If you wait your just playing badly. Oh and waiting to draw specific cards is still not staling
Some one disagreeing with you is not white knighting, you say that you want to see a specific mechanic change, I do not, that not the same as me saying that the game is perfect and that nothing should change.
Runneterra is nothing like Anthem. Anthem was released in buggy near unplayable state and the devs didn't ad much content after the release. Runneterra's release was successful, we already got two expansions and a third one is coming, the reason I said that you can't compare it to Heartstone and league is that those games had much more time to improve their gameplay and build a player base. So no I am not making excuse.
Anyway this conversation isn't going anywhere. Bye for now.
i call it stall because you are basically stuck not able to do anything to it which is why they had to create cards like sharpsight which is basically a must have card for demacia all just for factor elusive exist. its poorly design because its a mechanic create not for any synergy, not to made for a deck type, not to outplay your opponent, its a lazy beater design just there to be there.
you had obviously not been in any looter shooter, anthem bugs werent the nails in the coffin all the other looter shooters had some bad bugs. anthem repeated and even made some mistakes worse, their loot system was horrible, their story was poorly done, but especially the combat was made stale because enemies were in such a lazy design that increasing numbers and stats were all they thought about for gameplay like an old mmo rather than actual mechanics that made the game feel active. also games like tft did exceptionally well first release not just cause of league brand name but because they made everything well designed.
im not saying this game needs to be perfect NOW im saying this is something that should be reviewed, its a ground work idea that league has already done over and over that its not new territory to them. they had even reworked several champions in that game because it became an obvious some champs were falling out of design and played in a too simple/lazy playstyle. champions like warwick, pantheon, nunu, etc became champions that took more skill and became more active playstyle wise, they dint care that they had a perfect 50% winrate they cared how they made the game feel, they made changes to items, camps, and jungles several times the same way. this is me wanting to see runeterra improve but you say the other had time to do it but are against runeterra doing this concept entirely for this topic. like i said cursedparrot did a much better job trying to open for a discussion against or for elusive not a full outright denial, disagreeing with me had none of the notion why im calling you a white knight its you as a person.
Do you even understand what stall means? It's means to delay something, stun is a stall, elusive is about dealing damage directly to the nexus. Also I never said that game doesn't need to improve and be better your just talking nonsense there.
And that fact that you call me a white knight after I mad it clear that everyone has the right to criticize and dislike the game is hilarious.
Finally don't compare the game that have been out for one year to games that been around for 9 and 12 years that just not smart.
i call it stall because all you do is wait until you draw forced staple card just because elusive exist, stun atleast synergy and support cards to build a deck around and they dont last more than a single turn, elusives DO.
i call a white knight as it is because i had to give and repeat several reasoning on depth ears
dont compare an old game? youre joking right you know how many games are successful under a single year span or even on release? the fact these games existed so long should make it more obvious on what mistakes not to make. look at what happened to anthem because ppl made the excuse "oh it just released" compared to every looter shooter, the player base dwindled and the game completely crumbled. youre just make excuses at this point.
What criticism are you even talking about? Your argument boil down to "me and some people don't like it so the devs got to change it", sorry buddy but it doesn't work that way.
What I have been trying to say is that as long as a mechanic is not overpowered there is no need for it to change even if some players don't find it fun. because everyone have a mechanic that they don't like and there is no realistic way to cater to everyone whim.
Then you say a lot a people bash the game and say it's bland. So what ? Do have any idea how many people bash Heartstone or league of legends since you mentioned them? Did that stop any of them from enjoying success and having an active player base.
Look you got every right to dislike and criticize something, but in the end of the day that's just your opinion not facts, saying something like "a lot of ppl" is not statistics.
i swear having to repeat myself is like talking to a wall. i suggesting changing it to a an actual active mechanic not a stall card, make it actually fun to use and go against via example cards like fizz or flight THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE AND UNDERSTAND, support cards that make it feel like like an actual arktype like they been doing to other decks in exchange they just make 1 simple change that it isnt a permanent status. also you are only helping prove my point by bringing up league and hearthstone because those game constantly made changes alot of the times they werent anything to do with balance issues, alot of them broke the game over and over but they kept it fun, do you even actually play league at all? those games are several times more successful than runeterra that could had been alot better but ended a disappointment for alot of ppl thats why hearthstone is several times bigger with more active player base despite how much ppl hate blizzard and their cashing because the game is good and in those communities they will always say the game need to do better to improve, not white knight a game like a celebrity that wont care for you. if change isnt accepted then lets revert every card back to beta, lets cancel every expansion because its change thatll ruin the meta and balance for sure, you dont "need" expansions so why bother.
Also if you find Hearthstone to be more fun than Runeterra then you should played it instead, I mean the whole point of these online card games is to have fun, no one is gonna force to play a game that frustrates you.
It only become frustrating when the community can only hard defend all the time like with go hard or alot of other cards. I atleast liked cursedparrot explaining in depth why atleast cards like witch need to stay invisible that'll open for conversation what i think that can even change that for the better, not "uh no" conversations. I left my criticism because I thought the game could do better, i atleast give a explanation what else i would like to see because again its a bland mechanic and ppl saying its a bland game is not just a "few" ppl, alot of ppl bashed the game despite the brand name of league of legends and went back to hearthstone.
You said it yourself fun is a subjective criteria, balance isn't, as long as the mechanic or card doesn't dominate the game there is no need for a rework. I for myself don't find burn decks fun to play with or against but as long as they exist in a balance stat I am fine with them being in the game.
But I also said if there is enough vocal output then it shouldn't be ignored. The topic of elusives isn't new and after on and off from this game I always find atleast a few ppl wanting a change to it. Balance and fun are BOTH important to a game. I say it fair criticism and whether the devs decide to listen to it or not is on them but I still say hearthstone stealth or even shadowverse ambush mechanic is a much better design than elusive. It stall the game, it make it im forced certain staple cards, other mechanics actually feel like part of a deck but elusive is there for the sake of being elusive. w/e tho ill just jump back to hearthstone then like everyone else.
Minuano like i said before it doesnt matter if there is or not any answers to them, its how they function that makes it feel un fun to play with or against. balance is important but so many developers keep forgetting to ask is it fun (yes i get its subjective but if a decent chunk of ppl are vocal about then there is an obvious need to review). i said cards like the flight or fizz is exactly how they should function, 1 time use like other card games did but similar mechanics were already hated but now its worse feeling now that it can last the whole game. im not asking for a nerf im asking for a rework, again stat boost, bonus mechanic, new support cards, ANYTHING ELSE but the factor they stay invisible. its the one single mechanic that makes me question playing at all, ive been lenient with some broken cards before but alot of them gave funny moments and eventual fixes but elusives need a whole in depth look.
2. for them to stop strong arming me to play expeditions by quests
3. REWORK ELUSIVES PLEASE
i can agree that it doesnt even matter if they have answers or no answers to them because the way they functions just feel like stall out. i wish they made cards with proper depth instead of one way play. stuff like fizz and the flight are how they should function, 1 time use like barrier basically. give them stat boost or bonus effects or even support cards thatll let you deal extra dmg with a card or draw one by controlling a elusive on the board but for goodness sake i wish they would not make it where it last all game.
yes now that is how open for fair discussion by offering different solutions that either side can try to agree to. re initiating an elusive status by certain conditions is a fair and more meaningful play condition which i can agree is way better than an innate permanent status. as i mention before fizz and flight are more well designed cards to do so that devs should of done with most in the first place.
one thing you seem to misunderstand though is that im not asking for a removal of the mechanic im asking for it to have actual in depth plays rather than its only purpose is to hide all game which as you stated something to actually feel like im playing against something. when you mention champions that require to nexus hit by removing that elusive in permanent i think allow for new support cards in those decks like how darius has apprehend or nautilus has riptide (except actual good cards that ppl would use) or cards such as "if you control an elusive card deal 5 to an enemy" or a single combat version for cards that had elusive that game being able to nexus strike then grant + stats or even something like remove elusive off a card to capture and enemy to gain either their stat or keyword (these are random not to taken seriously but the idea is new ways to use elusives for more impactful plays). i never asked for elusives to be nerfed or removed i want them to be an actual more interactive meaningful mechanic but i think what holds it back from ever being able to do so is what i find a current lazy concept on only staying invisible just to be a random beater.
what you make a fair point is that sure maybe changing all at once will cause too much chaos that a few definitely need a tweak at a time but id atleast hope the devs even begin thinking about it at all because i think alot of it is wasted potential.
i call it stall because you are basically stuck not able to do anything to it which is why they had to create cards like sharpsight which is basically a must have card for demacia all just for factor elusive exist. its poorly design because its a mechanic create not for any synergy, not to made for a deck type, not to outplay your opponent, its a lazy beater design just there to be there.
you had obviously not been in any looter shooter, anthem bugs werent the nails in the coffin all the other looter shooters had some bad bugs. anthem repeated and even made some mistakes worse, their loot system was horrible, their story was poorly done, but especially the combat was made stale because enemies were in such a lazy design that increasing numbers and stats were all they thought about for gameplay like an old mmo rather than actual mechanics that made the game feel active. also games like tft did exceptionally well first release not just cause of league brand name but because they made everything well designed.
im not saying this game needs to be perfect NOW im saying this is something that should be reviewed, its a ground work idea that league has already done over and over that its not new territory to them. they had even reworked several champions in that game because it became an obvious some champs were falling out of design and played in a too simple/lazy playstyle. champions like warwick, pantheon, nunu, etc became champions that took more skill and became more active playstyle wise, they dint care that they had a perfect 50% winrate they cared how they made the game feel, they made changes to items, camps, and jungles several times the same way. this is me wanting to see runeterra improve but you say the other had time to do it but are against runeterra doing this concept entirely for this topic. like i said cursedparrot did a much better job trying to open for a discussion against or for elusive not a full outright denial, disagreeing with me had none of the notion why im calling you a white knight its you as a person.
i call it stall because all you do is wait until you draw forced staple card just because elusive exist, stun atleast synergy and support cards to build a deck around and they dont last more than a single turn, elusives DO.
i call a white knight as it is because i had to give and repeat several reasoning on depth ears
dont compare an old game? youre joking right you know how many games are successful under a single year span or even on release? the fact these games existed so long should make it more obvious on what mistakes not to make. look at what happened to anthem because ppl made the excuse "oh it just released" compared to every looter shooter, the player base dwindled and the game completely crumbled. youre just make excuses at this point.
i swear having to repeat myself is like talking to a wall. i suggesting changing it to a an actual active mechanic not a stall card, make it actually fun to use and go against via example cards like fizz or flight THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE AND UNDERSTAND, support cards that make it feel like like an actual arktype like they been doing to other decks in exchange they just make 1 simple change that it isnt a permanent status. also you are only helping prove my point by bringing up league and hearthstone because those game constantly made changes alot of the times they werent anything to do with balance issues, alot of them broke the game over and over but they kept it fun, do you even actually play league at all? those games are several times more successful than runeterra that could had been alot better but ended a disappointment for alot of ppl thats why hearthstone is several times bigger with more active player base despite how much ppl hate blizzard and their cashing because the game is good and in those communities they will always say the game need to do better to improve, not white knight a game like a celebrity that wont care for you. if change isnt accepted then lets revert every card back to beta, lets cancel every expansion because its change thatll ruin the meta and balance for sure, you dont "need" expansions so why bother.
But I also said if there is enough vocal output then it shouldn't be ignored. The topic of elusives isn't new and after on and off from this game I always find atleast a few ppl wanting a change to it. Balance and fun are BOTH important to a game. I say it fair criticism and whether the devs decide to listen to it or not is on them but I still say hearthstone stealth or even shadowverse ambush mechanic is a much better design than elusive. It stall the game, it make it im forced certain staple cards, other mechanics actually feel like part of a deck but elusive is there for the sake of being elusive. w/e tho ill just jump back to hearthstone then like everyone else.
Minuano like i said before it doesnt matter if there is or not any answers to them, its how they function that makes it feel un fun to play with or against. balance is important but so many developers keep forgetting to ask is it fun (yes i get its subjective but if a decent chunk of ppl are vocal about then there is an obvious need to review). i said cards like the flight or fizz is exactly how they should function, 1 time use like other card games did but similar mechanics were already hated but now its worse feeling now that it can last the whole game. im not asking for a nerf im asking for a rework, again stat boost, bonus mechanic, new support cards, ANYTHING ELSE but the factor they stay invisible. its the one single mechanic that makes me question playing at all, ive been lenient with some broken cards before but alot of them gave funny moments and eventual fixes but elusives need a whole in depth look.
There are 3 main things i would like in this game
1. cards skins from league of legends
2. for them to stop strong arming me to play expeditions by quests
3. REWORK ELUSIVES PLEASE
i can agree that it doesnt even matter if they have answers or no answers to them because the way they functions just feel like stall out. i wish they made cards with proper depth instead of one way play. stuff like fizz and the flight are how they should function, 1 time use like barrier basically. give them stat boost or bonus effects or even support cards thatll let you deal extra dmg with a card or draw one by controlling a elusive on the board but for goodness sake i wish they would not make it where it last all game.