It's because Warlock has too much healing. I've been saying this since Barrens.
One of the main points of Warlock is that it uses Health as a resource. That's all well and good, and makes for interesting decisions ... until you give the class so much healing that there are no more decisions. Just go ahead and spend that Health willy-nilly in full confidence that you'll have no trouble getting it back.
When you're trying to draw through your entire deck, life tapping and cards like Backfire are not the least bit scary because you are guaranteed to get 12 points of healing from quilboars and two 1-mana 6/6 taunts, not to mention all the lifesteal removal you'll draw along the way, some of which may be doubled by Tamsin.
Warlock may not technically have more healing than Priest, but it definitely has far more efficient healing, and a lot of it.
The problems go hand-in-hand, but I do think the latest "OwlTK" Warlock decks shows that card draw is the biggest issue. It's true that decks that care about self-harm (i.e. Questline Handlock) use Barrens Scavenger and Blood Shard Bristleback to recover, but they're only enabled by drawing your whole deck really fast. Meanwhile the "OwlTK" Warlock doesn't use either of those cards to stabalize, instead getting by with cheap AOE like Grimoire of Sacrifice along with extra card draw like Bloodmage Thalnos and the Tour Guide/Manafeeder Panthara combo.
I see what you're saying, but accelerated card draw is supposed to be part of the Warlock class identity. It wouldn't make sense to take that away from them. Healing, on the other hand, should be present but minimal.
I agree card draw is their identity. (hell it's built into their hero power) but they have so much also besides that. In fact I'd argue that the warlock class itself should have almost NO card draw in their class cards simply because their hero power is so central to it.
For the last year, if not two years, warlock has continually proven to be a problem because of it's core design (hero power, self-damage, and now lifesteal). I think this is a clear indication the class needs to be reworked from the ground up, similar to how Priest was. I know we are coming up on another core rotation next year so maybe that will help tone down the class. But I have to agree. Warlock has TOO much lifesteal/life gain. It has TOO much card draw.
I opened Shadowcrafter Scabbs and Cera'thine Fleetrunner on the first day of the expansion, and was really excited to try out Burgle Rogue too. And it's certainly a cool deck that does some powerful stuff. The early tempo you can get from Double Agent and Wildpaw Gnoll thanks to how they interact with Maestra of the Masquerade is awesome, and Contraband Stash is a great payoff card that benefits from smart playing (e.g. by picking spells from Wand Thief that will always target enemies, picking high-value deathrattles from Reconnaissance, or maybe holding back a bit when playing Shadowjeweler Hanar to avoid losing out on the tempo value you might otherwise get from the Contraband Stash).
It's a sweet deck, and when it goes off it's incredibly fun. I played a game where, between Reconnaissance and Contraband Stash, I generated a full board of Greyboughs and become untouchable. A part of me feels the same way you do about wanting to see it be more competitive so that I can win more and enjoy these sweet moments.
The reality, though, is that cards and archetypes are intentionally not created equal. Thesearticlesby Mark Rosewater back in 2009 speak to how MTG goes about designing for different players. Together I think they paint a good picture of how cards and archetypes will naturally vary in strength because they're basically serving different constituencies. As I see it, Burgle Rogue is likely always going to occupy some Timmy/Johnny design space, and probably won't be terribly competitive. That's not to say that every individual player can't find success with it (e.g. Rogue has some nice disruption tools that can really mess with OwlTK Warlock), but it's naturally going to be weaker because it's built to serve a set of players who care more than the average player about the "how" of winning.
To the broader point about issues with the metagame, I think you're right that it's in an unhealthy place right now. You need only tune in to one of Kibler's streams to see a player who is famous for winning with "Timmy decks" frustrated at every turn by the efficiency of the top tier decks.
The efficiency of top tier decks continually seems to be born from "overwhelming" turns, usually due to some form of mana cheating. I think the most restrictive thing is that the hearthstone team constantly seems to turn to mana cheating as their "wow this card is so cool" as some sort of design crutch instead of creating other interesting mechanics or ways to interact on the board.
I've read the MTG articles before, and while I understand the premise, I also think it's highly outdated. Why can't fun and competitive be the same thing? (yes I know that "fun" is subjective but the underlying point still stands)
Timmy will play card "A" if its a powerful and aesthetic card, Johnny will play card "A" if it's a way to get a complicated flashy win, Spike will play card "A" only if it improves the efficacy of his deck and makes him win % more games.
Those are the fundamental (in a nutshell) differences between the players. If we want to give them "real names". Why does Timmy's control deck seem to never have the tools necessary to allow him a chance at reaching end game? Why does Spike's aggro/otk deck always seem to have a plethora of ways to easily win? People are fine with everyone having different playstyles. What they aren't fine with is more tools being available to the Spike players. Control players holistically have to "survive" an onslaught of cards and hope that they luck out. Meanwhile aggro players (and in this meta OTK decks) simply just draw their their deck spamming minions, or tutors, until they get their win condition.
It's a disparity in the way that cards are designed that fundamentally means that control players are always left feeling like they are on the back foot. Never being able to do anything except clear/taunt/survive until something hopefully breaks their way.
And to be honest, it's a problem with the way HS was designed. Other games such as MTG and even LoR have far better systems designed to allow control opponents flexibility. LoR allows control players to bank mana to use on later turns as "spell mana" which lets them access more expensive spells to summon stronger units or stronger board clears naturally because the aggro player isn't going to bank mana, they are going to spend their mana summoning a bunch of smaller units. The only way HS allows this is through mana cheating. Except mana cheating is universal. It can be used by any archetype (see Incanters flow)
What HS needs is either way more restrictive deck building decisions (similar to vandar or drek actually) that force players to build their decks in specific ways if they want some sort of bonus. Or they need to fundamentally change how the game works (which let's be honest, will probably never happen).
I'll also point out that with so much card draw, player hand management/resource management is next to nothing. If card draw wasn't so universally available or at least as "easily" available to use without restrictions, you'd see more careful play and more mid-range decks pop up.
If I personally had to boil down the two biggest issues in Hearthstone it would be "too much card draw" and "too much easy/non-restrictive mana cheating".
As title says, has anyone here purchased the BG board skin and do you think it's worth it? Is it neat? Does it have interactables? etc. I haven't seen any videos reviewing it anywhere so wanted to see if I could get any feedback on if it makes the experience worth it or not.
Yes, because nerfing owl in some way (deathrattle proc, only targeting minions and not ALL characters) only nerfs that specific combo. Part of the 'problem' of OwlTK is that it enables the deck to do an obscene amount of lethal damage from hand. You could argue that Rune Mithril Rod is the worst part of the combo (and in some ways it is, cost reduction effects have been proving for awhile now to be the most egregious parts of any combo that is gamebreaking) but it didn't exist before. The primary method of preventing this OTK is to nerf Owl in some way that prevents the combo from existing, and then seeing if further tweaking is necessary.
Personally I plan on making a Rustwix version of the deck for funsies.
That's a fair assessment. I just find the demon seed as a whole to be a rather un-fun part of hearthstone, regardless of the mode it's played in. I can deal with the other quests to some degree and don't mind their strength now that most have been tuned. (mage is still kinda nuts but at least slow enough to give you a chance). But the demon seed just circumvents mechanics entirely which...makes me extremely frustrated with the meta.
Am I just undervalueing something or is Shield Vault the only actually viable card out of these 4 cards?
Like Pantheon really doesn't impress me especially because he levels pretty late and will just get minimorphed in the majority of cases and the rest of the cards just look... underwhelming to me
It's not that other cards are bad, it's that Bandlewood cards are just too good. They are all super effective, have bonus conditions, can usually cantrip or replace themselves in some ways. I honestly just think that the game got turned on it's side with the original Targon release. Targon changed the game from resource management into value management (with the Invoke keyword) and the game has been exacerbated ever since. Bandlewood naturally has more value and efficiency because it's the newest expansion. I could go on and on, but suffice to say in a single word what is occurring: Powercreep.
Has there been any mention of removing Diablo from Duels similar to how Diablo was removed from BG's in the recent patch?
Honestly he would be a perfectly balanced and interesting hero if it weren't for the existance of the Demon Seed. Considering it's duels I doubt we'll see Demon Seed removed/banned from that mode, so my only other hope is that he is removed.
Diablo w/ Demon Seed quest is about as annoying as facing a Mind Tether Priest with Fire Shaping. It's just an overall 'unfun' experience that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
I'd argue twinspell is better than echo for being made evergreen because it isn't limited to 1-3 mana cards and hence has much larger design space worth exploring over a long period of time. While echo has popped up a few times outside Witchwood, its too narrow to really be common.
That being said, I'd expect either inspire or magnetic to be the one being made evergreen. Inspire is open-ended enough to make sense in the game when there is a lot more support for hero powers than back in TGT, while magnetic is the only thing that distinguishes mechs from other tribes, so they probably should have it long term.
Inspire's issue is that at the time (and even now) hero powering is usually a sign of a "bad turn". And often the card would have a weak inspire effect. Take for example take Recruiter.
A 5 mana 5/4 by today's standards is horrible. Hell, we have 5 mana 5/6's that do something and still don't play them. Secondly. Requires you to use your hero power so it's "really" a turn 7 play. And on top of everything, it's a 1 mana 2/2 "inspire reward". (effectively making it a 3 mana 2/2 that is "free").
Inspire is a great idea mechanically, its just that it needed to have better effects attached to it. Or have inspire minions have lower stats and cost to have stronger inspire effects.
If the "Recruiter" card were printed today. I would make it a 3 mana 3/4, add a 1 mana 2/2 to your hand. This way it's used as a tempo play, and can then be inspired the next turn, or it can played on turn 5 to generate hand value.
Alternatively It could be printed as a 4 mana 3/4 with the keyword "Inspire: *Summon* a 2/2 squire" (that way you aren't paying for any costs from hand, but you are paying for an understatted body with a stronger inspire effect.
@Nova, they already do this in Legends of Runeterra. (each players half of the board shows their own cosmetics) and I agree with Suchti, it's really disjointed and looks....wack.
I'd rather it just be a coinflip who's board "is the board" for that battle then have every person's half a board showing.
It would be weird if one person's board is blackrock mountain and the other half is murlocs on a beach, would it not?
Thanks for the video. It helped explain things even more. I found it amusing that it boils down to the adage: "It's not a problem, until it is (and affects me)"
But such a well put video that bleeding edge efficiency and stockpiles can only go so far to impress shareholders, and that America has mimicked the original "well tuned machine" that was Toyota, but not in the right ways.
I agree card draw is their identity. (hell it's built into their hero power) but they have so much also besides that. In fact I'd argue that the warlock class itself should have almost NO card draw in their class cards simply because their hero power is so central to it.
For the last year, if not two years, warlock has continually proven to be a problem because of it's core design (hero power, self-damage, and now lifesteal). I think this is a clear indication the class needs to be reworked from the ground up, similar to how Priest was. I know we are coming up on another core rotation next year so maybe that will help tone down the class. But I have to agree. Warlock has TOO much lifesteal/life gain. It has TOO much card draw.
The efficiency of top tier decks continually seems to be born from "overwhelming" turns, usually due to some form of mana cheating. I think the most restrictive thing is that the hearthstone team constantly seems to turn to mana cheating as their "wow this card is so cool" as some sort of design crutch instead of creating other interesting mechanics or ways to interact on the board.
I've read the MTG articles before, and while I understand the premise, I also think it's highly outdated. Why can't fun and competitive be the same thing? (yes I know that "fun" is subjective but the underlying point still stands)
Timmy will play card "A" if its a powerful and aesthetic card, Johnny will play card "A" if it's a way to get a complicated flashy win, Spike will play card "A" only if it improves the efficacy of his deck and makes him win % more games.
Those are the fundamental (in a nutshell) differences between the players. If we want to give them "real names". Why does Timmy's control deck seem to never have the tools necessary to allow him a chance at reaching end game? Why does Spike's aggro/otk deck always seem to have a plethora of ways to easily win? People are fine with everyone having different playstyles. What they aren't fine with is more tools being available to the Spike players. Control players holistically have to "survive" an onslaught of cards and hope that they luck out. Meanwhile aggro players (and in this meta OTK decks) simply just draw their their deck spamming minions, or tutors, until they get their win condition.
It's a disparity in the way that cards are designed that fundamentally means that control players are always left feeling like they are on the back foot. Never being able to do anything except clear/taunt/survive until something hopefully breaks their way.
And to be honest, it's a problem with the way HS was designed. Other games such as MTG and even LoR have far better systems designed to allow control opponents flexibility. LoR allows control players to bank mana to use on later turns as "spell mana" which lets them access more expensive spells to summon stronger units or stronger board clears naturally because the aggro player isn't going to bank mana, they are going to spend their mana summoning a bunch of smaller units. The only way HS allows this is through mana cheating. Except mana cheating is universal. It can be used by any archetype (see Incanters flow)
What HS needs is either way more restrictive deck building decisions (similar to vandar or drek actually) that force players to build their decks in specific ways if they want some sort of bonus. Or they need to fundamentally change how the game works (which let's be honest, will probably never happen).
I'll also point out that with so much card draw, player hand management/resource management is next to nothing. If card draw wasn't so universally available or at least as "easily" available to use without restrictions, you'd see more careful play and more mid-range decks pop up.
If I personally had to boil down the two biggest issues in Hearthstone it would be "too much card draw" and "too much easy/non-restrictive mana cheating".
As title says, has anyone here purchased the BG board skin and do you think it's worth it? Is it neat? Does it have interactables? etc. I haven't seen any videos reviewing it anywhere so wanted to see if I could get any feedback on if it makes the experience worth it or not.
Thanks!
Yes, because nerfing owl in some way (deathrattle proc, only targeting minions and not ALL characters) only nerfs that specific combo. Part of the 'problem' of OwlTK is that it enables the deck to do an obscene amount of lethal damage from hand. You could argue that Rune Mithril Rod is the worst part of the combo (and in some ways it is, cost reduction effects have been proving for awhile now to be the most egregious parts of any combo that is gamebreaking) but it didn't exist before. The primary method of preventing this OTK is to nerf Owl in some way that prevents the combo from existing, and then seeing if further tweaking is necessary.
Personally I plan on making a Rustwix version of the deck for funsies.
That's a fair assessment. I just find the demon seed as a whole to be a rather un-fun part of hearthstone, regardless of the mode it's played in. I can deal with the other quests to some degree and don't mind their strength now that most have been tuned. (mage is still kinda nuts but at least slow enough to give you a chance). But the demon seed just circumvents mechanics entirely which...makes me extremely frustrated with the meta.
It's not that other cards are bad, it's that Bandlewood cards are just too good. They are all super effective, have bonus conditions, can usually cantrip or replace themselves in some ways. I honestly just think that the game got turned on it's side with the original Targon release. Targon changed the game from resource management into value management (with the Invoke keyword) and the game has been exacerbated ever since. Bandlewood naturally has more value and efficiency because it's the newest expansion. I could go on and on, but suffice to say in a single word what is occurring: Powercreep.
Has there been any mention of removing Diablo from Duels similar to how Diablo was removed from BG's in the recent patch?
Honestly he would be a perfectly balanced and interesting hero if it weren't for the existance of the Demon Seed. Considering it's duels I doubt we'll see Demon Seed removed/banned from that mode, so my only other hope is that he is removed.
Diablo w/ Demon Seed quest is about as annoying as facing a Mind Tether Priest with Fire Shaping. It's just an overall 'unfun' experience that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Inspire's issue is that at the time (and even now) hero powering is usually a sign of a "bad turn". And often the card would have a weak inspire effect. Take for example take Recruiter.
A 5 mana 5/4 by today's standards is horrible. Hell, we have 5 mana 5/6's that do something and still don't play them. Secondly. Requires you to use your hero power so it's "really" a turn 7 play. And on top of everything, it's a 1 mana 2/2 "inspire reward". (effectively making it a 3 mana 2/2 that is "free").
Inspire is a great idea mechanically, its just that it needed to have better effects attached to it. Or have inspire minions have lower stats and cost to have stronger inspire effects.
If the "Recruiter" card were printed today. I would make it a 3 mana 3/4, add a 1 mana 2/2 to your hand. This way it's used as a tempo play, and can then be inspired the next turn, or it can played on turn 5 to generate hand value.
Alternatively It could be printed as a 4 mana 3/4 with the keyword "Inspire: *Summon* a 2/2 squire" (that way you aren't paying for any costs from hand, but you are paying for an understatted body with a stronger inspire effect.
Yea I saw kennan's requirements and was like "oh look, below the caverns...
Ah so it's just like Classic WoW where random server rollbacks during the launch of it/AV caused issues. :
@Nova, they already do this in Legends of Runeterra. (each players half of the board shows their own cosmetics) and I agree with Suchti, it's really disjointed and looks....wack.
I'd rather it just be a coinflip who's board "is the board" for that battle then have every person's half a board showing.
It would be weird if one person's board is blackrock mountain and the other half is murlocs on a beach, would it not?
Thanks for the video. It helped explain things even more. I found it amusing that it boils down to the adage: "It's not a problem, until it is (and affects me)"
But such a well put video that bleeding edge efficiency and stockpiles can only go so far to impress shareholders, and that America has mimicked the original "well tuned machine" that was Toyota, but not in the right ways.
I prefer Leona, but Diana's theme from LoL is still one of the most hauntingly beautiful ones ever...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-U2JdiHBsc
I prefer Leona, but Diana's theme from LoL is still one of the most hauntingly beautiful ones ever...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-U2JdiHBsc
A new dawn has arrived!
To shine like the sun you must burn like it!
One of my favorite cards.
Still my favorite card.
This is insane in arena. Not sure about standard though. And there's stronger stuff in wild.
This is insane as a secret tutor goes. Not looking forward to secret hunters at all.