One downside of Highlander decks is that they've generally been really expensive.
Moreover, Year of the Dragon's decks haven't been really cheap for most of the part (except stuff like RoS Mech and Midrange Hunter, DoD Face Hunter and literally a couple more).
That Highlander Rogue got me to Legend this season. Very fun yet incredibly consistent, even though it condenses so many different packages (Highlander, Galakrond, Lackey, Burgle, Deathrattle and OG Tempo).
I highly recommend it if you have most of the cards.
Quote From BystekhilcarIt's not like we had Kraken, Mammoth or Raven decks previously (although now I come to think of it... why didn't we get Kraken tribals? That'd be way more interesting than dragons...).
I agree with literally anything except this: every time I've seen this argument I got really annoyed cause it doesn't make any sense at all.
"Kraken" and "Raven" are not tribal tags, whereas "Dragon" is and, to be honest, it's one of the community's favorites too. It was legitimate for us to think about lots of minions with that tribe coming in this year, exactly for this reason.
I've been playing with Galakrond Rogue: unfortunately I don't have a really good winrate (52% or so), but I'm slowly grinding my way out. I should get to rank 3 by the end of the day and then who knows.
I'd like to craft Heistbaron Togwaggle since I miss it, but that card is awful in Wild, so...
Just as Jesse Alexander said (for those who don't him, he's a dude that plays just Rogue and has more than 16000 wins with the class) , Deathrattle Rogue with Mechanical Whelp performs better than the version with Anubisath Warbringer, despite the second one being more flashy and giving a much worse game experience to the opponent.
Pro tip for whoever has been brave enough to come here: if your opponent has 8 or more cards in his hand and you play Zephrys the Great with 3 mana left, he'll almost always offer you King Mukla for some milling shenanigans.
Kind of a neat interaction that has won me a game or two.
Zephrys is very strong but not the Swiss Army knife everyone would like him to be.
If you highlander players face too many DR rogues, tech in a silence card like the rest of us. This will work like a charm.
Exactly ! Lot of players think he will always give you the best thing ever - but that's not the case - you also only wish for the perfect card - doesn't mean you will alway get it - sure in some situations he will give you the "Perfect" Card in other he will give you good options but not the perfect one
Wtf does that even mean? Lol
It means that in some situations he will give you the perfect card but in others only a good outcome but just not the perfect one!
Don't know how someone can missunderstand that :)
It's simple: you made it sound like Zephrys the Great's effect is RNG based. Zephrys is supposed to give you the best thing ever (obviously within his pool of cards) in every situation you use it. Will it always give you what you want? No, because sometimes you didn't give him enough info or simply there are better cards. Even if you do, will it always fulfill your expectations? No, not always, and that's where there's room for future updates.
Since its release, Zephrys the Great has periodically received updates given some non optimal choices offered in different scenarios (Silence for Frozen minions for lethal, Shadow Madness being an actual useful choice, deathrattle and reborn being taken in consideration more seriously,...).
This meta shows that Zephrys does not evaluate Silence (and Secrets dare to add) as much as he should: is that a problem? Yeah, it could be since you'd plan your turn expecting a precise card to be offered and, if that doesn't happen, it may be game losing. Will it last forever? Fortunately no: like I said before, Zephrys either gives you what you should be wanting or will learn to do in the future.
Zephrys is very strong but not the Swiss Army knife everyone would like him to be.
If you highlander players face too many DR rogues, tech in a silence card like the rest of us. This will work like a charm.
Exactly ! Lot of players think he will always give you the best thing ever - but that's not the case - you also only wish for the perfect card - doesn't mean you will alway get it - sure in some situations he will give you the "Perfect" Card in other he will give you good options but not the perfect one
I'm actually going to be updating the crafting guide for standard this week! I had been waiting for nerfs to hit before creating a post for it. I was going to focus on Legendaries, but is the consensus that knowing good Epics is important too?
Yes please! It was one of my favorite threads back in the day, and I'd really be glad to see it again.
as you might have heard, Mogu Fleshshaper will be changed soon (in less than 24 hours to be precise), moving its cost from 7 up to 9. To be honest I was ok with this balance change, but I've read more than one person saying that this should be a buff instead of a nerf. It is true?
Show Spoiler
No, it's not.
Let's look at it closely.
I'll now list every single 8 and 10 drops currently available in Standard, dividing them in 3 categories: potentially game ending (you definitely highballed), good (nice upgrade) and bad (worse or not much better). In order to give this rates I'll take in consideration a scenario in which the game isn't already decided. Consider also that some minions are in the middle ground between two tiers, so you may not agree about some decisions, but you should be able to see the logic behind all. Let's start with the 8 drops: POTENTIALLY GAME ENDING (8): Al'Akir the Windlord, Deathwing, Mad Aspect, Mosh'Ogg Enforcer, Tirion Fordring, Walking Fountain, Zzeraku the Warped, Grommash Hellscream, Batterhead.
In the end we have 8 really good outcomes, 20 decent ones and 8 bad ones, with the average result being a 5,5/7, with an 11% chance to have Rush (4/36), a 6% chance to have Charge or Windfury (2/36 in both cases), a 19,4% chance to have Taunt (7/36), an 11% chance to have a somewhat useful deathrattle (again 4/36) and finally a 61% chance to get more than a simple vanilla minion (22/36).
This time we have 4 really good outcomes, 8 good ones and just a bad one, with a 1/12 chance to get taunt and roughly a 50% chance (5/12) to get something more than a vanilla minion, with an average result of a 7,8/8,9.
Now, from what gathered here we can draw these conclusions:
none of the two pools is bad (no shit Sherlock).
while the 10 drops pool has a higher chance to get a really good minion, the 8 drops pool will get you something that will immediately affect the board with a much higher frequency.
the average minion you'll get from the 10 drops pool has +2/+2 compared to the one you'd get from the 8 drops pool, which is fair if you consider the vanilla test.
That being said, why and when do you play Mogu Fleshshaper (followed by and evolve card, of course)? The answer is simple: the faster the better. You want to get the most possible out of you mana cheating effect. That's why even Murloc builds used to run him since they didn't want to play for value/control.
Imagine this average scenario: 1 drop + totem + enemy minion + other minion (second totem, second enemy minion, lackey, Faceless Lackey shenanigans,...) will discount Mogu for 4 and thus you'll be able to play it on turn 3, with (like I said before) 28 in 36 chances to get a well statted 8 drop that your opponent will have to answer in one or two turns.
What about 9 mana Mogu? In these case, you'll have to wait at least two more turns, in order to
play more minions in order to get more discount
keep the board spread out against your opponent's trades
get more mana in order to be able to actually play the card
Given these premises, the surprise/game breaking effect of Mogu would be less impacting on the board, to the point where a +2/+2 couldn't be enough to compensate the turns spent in order to set up an appropriate table. I'll say it again: the Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate combo's main goal is not to put as much stats as possible on the board, but do it the fastest you can, in order to have more chances for your big drop to stick. Therefore, I can affirm that Mogu Fleshshaper's balance change is meant to be a nerf and not a buff.
TLDR: answering an 8 drop on turn 4 is much more difficult than dealing with a 10 drop on turn 6/7 - it's a nerf, not a buff.
Thanks for reading, I hope you've found this post interesting and insightful. I'm really looking forward to read your own opinions!
I guess you can see it that way as well. It's just that the timing isn't appropriate at all, and we can agree on that: in the past (April-August, the golden age of these times' Control Warrior) Eternium Rover has been far more problematic than Sludge Slurper has ever been, but no nerfs. Same can be said for stuff like Northshire Cleric (but Priest can't be discussed here since it's in a situation of its own and should be addressed according to that).
In the end, now it's just a 1/1 overload (1) that generates a Lackey, so an EVIL Cable Rat that can come down one turn earlier, which is not bad but doesn't thrill me at all.
It's probably me that I thought there was no way Dragon's Pack wasn't getting nerfed, and against my own convictions I found Sludge Slurper to be the one hit.
I wasn't expecting the nerfs to be so...mild. I thought the usual rule of thumb for nerfs in hearthstone was to nuke cards off the screen.
Agree with the first sentence; disagree with the second one.
I feel that the problems we were complaining about are still there and aren't significantly changed. What feels bad to play against will still feel bad. It looks like they did this patch just because of "yes: there go you, nerfs; now shut up and go back playing".
On the other hand, nerfing cards shouldn't erase them from the game unless their existence is a threat to the game itself (see Naga Sea Witch): I in fact applaud team 5 for not nuking Faceless Corruptor but keeping it playable.
Oh yeah, they finally decided to get rid of the fearsome and oppressive Sludge Slurper! I was so sick of seeing it being abused in every single Shaman deck. Let's be honest folks, it was clearly one of the biggest problems out there: I'm glad the devs decided to straight halve its attack, since it is was so good it often decided most of the matches it's been played in.
On a serious note: excuse me sir what the fuck? Yeah, what the fuck? First of all, the "dangerous" part of Sludge Slurper is the card generation in combination with Corrupt the Waters' Heart of Vir'naal; secondly, what the fuck?
I get that now with 6 mana Corrupt ElementalistDragon's Pack won't be as effective as it's been in the last week, but I don't think the situation will change so much. I really hope to be wrong.
One downside of Highlander decks is that they've generally been really expensive.
Moreover, Year of the Dragon's decks haven't been really cheap for most of the part (except stuff like RoS Mech and Midrange Hunter, DoD Face Hunter and literally a couple more).
That Highlander Rogue got me to Legend this season. Very fun yet incredibly consistent, even though it condenses so many different packages (Highlander, Galakrond, Lackey, Burgle, Deathrattle and OG Tempo).
I highly recommend it if you have most of the cards.
Are you on EU? Wanna go for a try
Merry Christmas to everyone folks! <3
I agree with literally anything except this: every time I've seen this argument I got really annoyed cause it doesn't make any sense at all.
"Kraken" and "Raven" are not tribal tags, whereas "Dragon" is and, to be honest, it's one of the community's favorites too. It was legitimate for us to think about lots of minions with that tribe coming in this year, exactly for this reason.
I've been playing with Galakrond Rogue: unfortunately I don't have a really good winrate (52% or so), but I'm slowly grinding my way out. I should get to rank 3 by the end of the day and then who knows.
I'd like to craft Heistbaron Togwaggle since I miss it, but that card is awful in Wild, so...
Just as Jesse Alexander said (for those who don't him, he's a dude that plays just Rogue and has more than 16000 wins with the class) , Deathrattle Rogue with Mechanical Whelp performs better than the version with Anubisath Warbringer, despite the second one being more flashy and giving a much worse game experience to the opponent.
I can confirm it's really good
Pro tip for whoever has been brave enough to come here: if your opponent has 8 or more cards in his hand and you play Zephrys the Great with 3 mana left, he'll almost always offer you King Mukla for some milling shenanigans.
Kind of a neat interaction that has won me a game or two.
King Mukla in an actual deck: you earned my attention sir
It's simple: you made it sound like Zephrys the Great's effect is RNG based. Zephrys is supposed to give you the best thing ever (obviously within his pool of cards) in every situation you use it.
Will it always give you what you want? No, because sometimes you didn't give him enough info or simply there are better cards. Even if you do, will it always fulfill your expectations? No, not always, and that's where there's room for future updates.
Since its release, Zephrys the Great has periodically received updates given some non optimal choices offered in different scenarios (Silence for Frozen minions for lethal, Shadow Madness being an actual useful choice, deathrattle and reborn being taken in consideration more seriously,...).
This meta shows that Zephrys does not evaluate Silence (and Secrets dare to add) as much as he should: is that a problem? Yeah, it could be since you'd plan your turn expecting a precise card to be offered and, if that doesn't happen, it may be game losing. Will it last forever? Fortunately no: like I said before, Zephrys either gives you what you should be wanting or will learn to do in the future.
Wtf does that even mean? Lol
"My bite is worse than my bark"
The old lady has some good bars
Yes please! It was one of my favorite threads back in the day, and I'd really be glad to see it again.
So you'd wait like two more turns (with all the bad consequences I wrote) only to get rid of a 1 in 36 chance?
I don't know man...
Hello everyone,
as you might have heard, Mogu Fleshshaper will be changed soon (in less than 24 hours to be precise), moving its cost from 7 up to 9.
To be honest I was ok with this balance change, but I've read more than one person saying that this should be a buff instead of a nerf. It is true?
Let's look at it closely.
I'll now list every single 8 and 10 drops currently available in Standard, dividing them in 3 categories: potentially game ending (you definitely highballed), good (nice upgrade) and bad (worse or not much better). In order to give this rates I'll take in consideration a scenario in which the game isn't already decided. Consider also that some minions are in the middle ground between two tiers, so you may not agree about some decisions, but you should be able to see the logic behind all.
Let's start with the 8 drops:
POTENTIALLY GAME ENDING (8): Al'Akir the Windlord, Deathwing, Mad Aspect, Mosh'Ogg Enforcer, Tirion Fordring, Walking Fountain, Zzeraku the Warped, Grommash Hellscream, Batterhead.
GOOD (20): Akali, the Rhino (it would be in a lower tier if not for the effect), Catrina Muerte, Deranged Doctor, Fel Lord Betrug, Gruul, Da Undatakah, Gilnean Royal Guard, Ironbark Protector (maybe higher), Jepetto Joybuzz, Lucentbark, Mana Giant, Murozond the Infinite, Octosari (double edged blade but still an 8/8), Princess Talanji, Splintergraft, Tess Greymane (on the edge of being lower), Tomb Warden (not lower just for the taunt), Twin Tyrant, Whirlwind Tempest (see Tess), Cauldron Elemental.
BAD (8): Arcane Devourer, Captain Hooktusk, Heroic Innkeeper, Hex Lord Malacrass, Hir'eek, the Bat, Pit Crocolisk, Splitting Festeroot (maybe higher), Tortollan Pilgrim.
In the end we have 8 really good outcomes, 20 decent ones and 8 bad ones, with the average result being a 5,5/7, with an 11% chance to have Rush (4/36), a 6% chance to have Charge or Windfury (2/36 in both cases), a 19,4% chance to have Taunt (7/36), an 11% chance to have a somewhat useful deathrattle (again 4/36) and finally a 61% chance to get more than a simple vanilla minion (22/36).
Let's do the same thing for the 10 drops too
POTENTIALLY GAME ENDING (4): Colossus of the Moon, Big Bad Archmage, Kalecgos, Deathwing.
GOOD (8): Emeriss, Jumbo Imp, Hakkar, the Soulflayer, Sea Giant, Nozari, The Boom Reaver, Living Monument, Mecha'thun.
BAD (1): King Phaoris.
This time we have 4 really good outcomes, 8 good ones and just a bad one, with a 1/12 chance to get taunt and roughly a 50% chance (5/12) to get something more than a vanilla minion, with an average result of a 7,8/8,9.
Now, from what gathered here we can draw these conclusions:
That being said, why and when do you play Mogu Fleshshaper (followed by and evolve card, of course)? The answer is simple: the faster the better. You want to get the most possible out of you mana cheating effect. That's why even Murloc builds used to run him since they didn't want to play for value/control.
Imagine this average scenario: 1 drop + totem + enemy minion + other minion (second totem, second enemy minion, lackey, Faceless Lackey shenanigans,...) will discount Mogu for 4 and thus you'll be able to play it on turn 3, with (like I said before) 28 in 36 chances to get a well statted 8 drop that your opponent will have to answer in one or two turns.
What about 9 mana Mogu? In these case, you'll have to wait at least two more turns, in order to
Given these premises, the surprise/game breaking effect of Mogu would be less impacting on the board, to the point where a +2/+2 couldn't be enough to compensate the turns spent in order to set up an appropriate table.
I'll say it again: the Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate combo's main goal is not to put as much stats as possible on the board, but do it the fastest you can, in order to have more chances for your big drop to stick.
Therefore, I can affirm that Mogu Fleshshaper's balance change is meant to be a nerf and not a buff.
TLDR: answering an 8 drop on turn 4 is much more difficult than dealing with a 10 drop on turn 6/7 - it's a nerf, not a buff.
Thanks for reading, I hope you've found this post interesting and insightful.
I'm really looking forward to read your own opinions!
I guess you can see it that way as well.
It's just that the timing isn't appropriate at all, and we can agree on that: in the past (April-August, the golden age of these times' Control Warrior) Eternium Rover has been far more problematic than Sludge Slurper has ever been, but no nerfs. Same can be said for stuff like Northshire Cleric (but Priest can't be discussed here since it's in a situation of its own and should be addressed according to that).
In the end, now it's just a 1/1 overload (1) that generates a Lackey, so an EVIL Cable Rat that can come down one turn earlier, which is not bad but doesn't thrill me at all.
It's probably me that I thought there was no way Dragon's Pack wasn't getting nerfed, and against my own convictions I found Sludge Slurper to be the one hit.
Agree with the first sentence; disagree with the second one.
I feel that the problems we were complaining about are still there and aren't significantly changed. What feels bad to play against will still feel bad. It looks like they did this patch just because of "yes: there go you, nerfs; now shut up and go back playing".
On the other hand, nerfing cards shouldn't erase them from the game unless their existence is a threat to the game itself (see Naga Sea Witch): I in fact applaud team 5 for not nuking Faceless Corruptor but keeping it playable.
This is how I see it: Mogu's strength was not the chance to turn it into a big minion, but rather the timing you were able to do it in the game.
I honestly think that dealing with a 10 drop on turn 7/8 is much more manageable than killing an 8 mana on turn 3/4.
Therefore, given that Mogu has seen play mostly because you could abuse its cost reduction, it will see much less play.
Oh yeah, they finally decided to get rid of the fearsome and oppressive Sludge Slurper!
I was so sick of seeing it being abused in every single Shaman deck. Let's be honest folks, it was clearly one of the biggest problems out there: I'm glad the devs decided to straight halve its attack, since it is was so good it often decided most of the matches it's been played in.
On a serious note: excuse me sir what the fuck? Yeah, what the fuck? First of all, the "dangerous" part of Sludge Slurper is the card generation in combination with Corrupt the Waters' Heart of Vir'naal; secondly, what the fuck?
I get that now with 6 mana Corrupt Elementalist Dragon's Pack won't be as effective as it's been in the last week, but I don't think the situation will change so much. I really hope to be wrong.
Farewell Mogu Fleshshaper: rot in whatever there is in hell.
Faceless Corruptor will still be good: it won't be an autoinclude in like every single deck anymore, but will surely see decent amounts of play.
I guess it's time to craft the second copy of Necrium Apothecary...