Agreed. Prior to Legion, Guldan was just a generic cartoon villain being evil for the sake of being evil. Then the Harbingers and Chronicles fleshed out his tragic backstory. I like that there is still an ambiguity as to why he was shunned by his clan. Was it something he did, was it because he has cluster B disorders, or was it gratuitous because he is a cripple? Was Evil Guldan born or made? Likely a mix of both.
The puzzles were a nice change compared to other adventures. Too bad I had to concede the Malfurion one (stuck at Ragnaros) to do this one.
I'm dead set on trying a BG card for this theme. For science.
Still not sure at which tier I should put it.
I must also add that the meal gives +3/+3 to ANY minion. When you play Cookie, you're definitely NOT playing murloc. Also, one precision: If you buy the 3rd copy of a murloc it will still become golden and not turn into a meal since the text on Cookie says "after".
I think this is a really funny card, but I am quite concerned about how mixing Battlegrounds cards with Constructed cards is going to affect your score. I think it's probably best if you avoid making Battlegrounds cards in competitions that aren't specifically designed for people to make them.
I am willing to take the risk. I almost exclusively play BG nowadays and I think many voters would be happy to see a BG card.
This is a murlocization of an idea of mine that made it into hearthcards' gallery. I have some doubts about stats and balance though. (golden version would give two meals)
I'm currently at work and imgur is blocked so here's feedback for people who didn't post on imgur:
@Lundy: Tirion is great for memes and the effect is very decent. It will perform well and I will def give it 5 stars.
@anchor4m: Lilidan is the best card but the stats should be changed. I'd make it a 2/4 for balance. I'd also change the name because I'm fed up with every DH card name being a variation of "Illidan"
Welcome back to Uldum, adventurers! This place has been really calm since the League of Explorers left, but people here still need my services! By the way, do you remember the plagues Rafaam unleashed? It turns out they are very nice when you take the time to know them! Hey, why don't you take a seat? Are you interested by this camel? Come on! I really struggle to sell it.
Agreed. Stormwind has so many good characters that would make perfect rogues heroes like Mathias Shaw or Elling Trias (who appears twice in the trailer!) and instead we get Katrana Prestor who should obviously have been a Legendary instead. And as a mage hero on top of what. Just...why?
* Lady Katrana Prestor (AKA Onyxia's human form for those not into WoW lore) featured prominently since she's been teased at the end of the Xyrella campaign
I agree with others that Overload isn't the problem in and of itself. The problem is Overload within the Shaman class, whose true issue lies in its class identity. Overload right now can be useful in 2 ways:
Early game snowballing. The problem is, if your opponent still manages to clear your early board, you have overloaded for nothing and you're screwed
Combo/Burst damage. Except shaman isn't a combo class since it doesn't have good tutor/card draw. The direct damage Shaman can leverage, especially since the loss of Bloodlust and Lava Burst, isn't lethal enough. Also Blizzard understandably doesn't want to push this mechanic too much.
Paladin and Shaman are the worst designed classes of Hearthstone*. If you look at HS history, those two classes are most often found at the extreme of a meta. Either completely OP or unplayable, but rarely just balanced. Right now, Paladin is on top and Shaman sucks, however back in MSoG in 2016 it was the other way around. The core set revamp could have fixed both classes, but it didn't. That's because the problem lies in the two classes fundamental mechanics.
Focusing on Shaman specifically to stay on topic, its main issue is its reliance on snowballing and permanent board control to win. If shaman loses board control, it loses. It has no comeback mechanics.
Its second main issue is the weakness of totems, which is linked to the first one because totems have powerful ongoing effects but do nothing on their own. Basic totems in particular are an issue. Not only is shaman HP badly designed from a new player POV ("what's a basic totem? Why are all other hero powers explicit but this one isn't? Why are the totems so complex?") but its fundamental randomness makes it useless. I'm in favor of changing it so you can choose which totem you summon (and making the upgraded version summon 2 totems). I'm also in favor of simplifying by removing one totem, preferably one of the two "complicated" ones (Healing Totem or [Hearthstone Card (Strength of Earth Totem) Not Found]).
Apart from that, well, I don't know what devs can do to make the shaman class more viable and stable. Perhaps the new spell schools will bring something to the table? Shaman has synergies with 3 spells schools (fire, frost, nature) so perhaps there is something there.
* Also Warlock, however Guldan's issues are of a different nature so I won't focus on them here.
Personnaly I'd still like to see your kobold tribe. I doubt theyre 100% identical to the new quilboar tribe, are they?
As for nagas, I like the concept of attack thresholds, but it is paradoxical that the threshold is higher on golden versions. It means it's a straight up downgrade. Also I too "bgfied" Zola the Gorgon in the past and I've been told it'd be too OP in BGs due to "golden" having a huge gameplay impact.
Everyone, get in here and welcome to the Grim Guzzler! I'm Plugger Spazzing, the boss of this place, and from now on I'll be your host. Our beloved Bob unfortunately had to take a break for reasons totally unrelated to me (just ask my laywer). Six years ago, a horde of adventurers paying a children's card game ransacked my bar just for fun. But now, we're back in business! If you like beer, brawls, literal hot chicks, brawls, and getting in here, this is the place for you! Did I say brawls already? 'Cause that's important! Here's what we have in store today:
30 new minions!
4 new heroes!
Frenzy : Something good came out of the Barrens after all! Patrons LOVE to hurt each other!
Pints : What would the Grim Guzzler be without its Dark Iron Ale? For the very affordable price of 1 Coin, you can give a minion +3 Health!
Dark Iron dwarfs : A brand new minion type! Dark Irons like three things: taking damage, having high Health, and BEER!
(Note: I started this before Quilboars were revealed, I didn't expect they would have such a similar mechanic)
THE SET
4 New heroes
Emperor Thaurissan
Coren Direbrew
(only available when Dark Irons are present)
High Justice Grimstone
War Master Voone
30 New cards
★ Tier I (4 minions)
★★ Tier II (5 minions)
★★★ Tier III (6 minions)
★★★★ Tier IV (6 minions)
Do note that Nagmara's availability is tied to the Demon tag and not the Dark Iron tag, due to the fact that she generates Pints herself so her effect isn't useless when DI are absent.
★★★★★ Tier V (5 minions)
Do note that Nagmara's availability is tied to the Dark Iron tag and not the Elemental tag. Unlike Nagmara, Alemental would be useless without DIs.
Soul Juggler gains the Dark Iron tag. Do note that ot will still only appear when Demons are present.
The Rat King gains a King of Dark Iron Dwarves HP.
PLUGGER SPAZZRING'S LINES
The new bartender isn't as nice as Bob...
Spazzring Lines
Start of game
Welcome to the Grim Guzzler. Please remember that we disclaim all liability if you get killed, maimed, poisoned, vaporized, corrupted, frozen, hexed, mind-controlled, banished into the Twisting Nether, or if your clothes get stained.
Random during preparation phase
There is NO evil elemental lord under the Grim Guzzler! Any contrary statement constitutes libel and will be challenged into court!
The arena? Ha! The Guzzler is where the REAL fighting happens!
Yesterday there was this pyromancer chick here. She was freaking hot! Like, hotter than Ragnaros!
Why hire any personnel when I can just summon it from the Twisting Nether and not pay them?
A dwarf, an orc, and a tuskarr go into a bar...I forgot the rest of the joke.
If you're looking for your 'Hand of Justice' or 'Savage Gladiator Chain' you're at the wrong place.
I hope you're not like that Windsor guy who was here last week and completely ransacked the place for no reason at all!
I swear, if I hear 'Everyone get in here' one more time, I'll set Phalanx on BERSERK mode!
Our drinks are home-made! No conjured stuff!
I asked Nagmara out yesterday. She told me 'I only see you as a master'. I got warlockzoned again!
I really struggle to find new patrons. I'm starting to think that opening the bar inside an active volcano full of monsters might have something to do with it...
I'm working on a brand new beer recipe whose main ingredient is LAVA! It will ROCK the entire beer industry!
Toilets are on the left. Please leave them at least as dirty as when you found them.
Today is a peaceful day at the bar. Only 10 people died....so far.
If you think this place is shady, you've never been to Lion Pride's Inn in Goldshire...*shudders*
Random when buying minion
That's the dumbest move I've ever seen.
Are you seriously recruiting THAT idiot?
What the...is there any logic behind that?
I've met gnolls who take smarter decisions than you!
Goldenize a minion
Ooh shiny!
Hey, as the owner of this bar I'm entitled to a share of the benefit!
Why does this Patron have a blue arrow on him? Huh.
Upgrade Tavern
The VIP lounge is this way, <Sir/Madam>! [based on hero's gender]
Freeze minions
How did you manage to freeze them?! We're literally inside of an active volcano! With lava everywhere!
Alright, who messed up with the air conditioning again? We're freezing here!
Before fight
BARFIGHT!
Alright, try to not get killed.
I don't want to look. Tell me when it's over!
You're gonna get CRUSHED!
Try to not destroy too much stuff please.
[If 1st position] You're the king of the mountain! Beware of the envious!
[If 1st position] You got them all! By any chance do you want to become my personal bodyguard?
After fight (win)
Oh come on! I bet ten bucks on the other guy. Why did you do this to me?!
Damn, you're violent! Did you just get out of jail or something?
BTW we're hiring bouncers. Just sayin'.
After fight (lose)
Damn, you really suck.
Hahahaha! you're a loser!
Don't try to blame bad RNG. You're just bad.
After game (promoting Tavern Ticket)
*whispers* Hey! Psst! If you want to upgrade your performance, I've got stuff for you!
The solution is to lean into the whole left/right thing, but not have it attached to the outcast keyword so often. They are already starting to do this with Zai, the Incredible and Kurtrus Ashfallen (yes, Kurtrus has outcast, but he attacks the left- and right-most minions even without it). This way you can play DH with the unique aspect of being mindful of the positions of cards (both in hand and on board), without feeling like you have to ignore a huge part of the class to do it.
Also, differentiate left-most and right-most synergies.
The left-most card in your hand is the one you've been hoarding the longest. It is likely an expensive and/or situational card. "Left-most" synergies need to push a combo or control playstyle
The right-most card in your hand is always a card you drew or generated this turn. "Right-most" synergies need to push a miracle or zoo playstyle.
Personally, I think Hearthstone should have established a lot more division between the classes even prior to Demon Hunter. That doesn't necessarily mean that each class should have only been good at one thing, but I would have liked to see each have a defined profile. Consider the current "color chart":
Mage is great at AoE spells, single-target spell removal, over-the-top damage, & card draw; they are good at disruption (secrets) & value generation; they are weak at healing & units; they have no rush or weapons
Shaman is OK at AoE spells, single-target spell removal, healing, over-the-top damage, token units, rush units, and weapons; they are poor at card draw & value generation; no disruption
Hunter is great at over-the-top damage, units, rush, spell-based unit removal, disruption, & weapons; they are poor at card draw & value generation; no healing & no AoE besides explosive trap
Warrior is great at weapons, rush, units, single-target spell removal, AoE spells (brawl, bladestorm); they are good at value generation & healing; they are weak at card draw; no disruption besides taunt
...and so on. Those descriptions are based largely around this developer insight article from 2 years ago, and already I'm sure people's inner voices are screaming. "How can you say warriors are weak at card draw when Cutting Class exists? Or that hunter is bad at value generation with cards like Warsong Wrangler & Adorable Infestation?" And that's BEFORE accounting for neutral cards filling in gaps (e.g., Voracious Reader to fix bad draw; Armor Vendor for healing; etc). In my eyes, the Venn diagram of even the original 9 classes is this giant blob that says everyone is way more alike then they are distinct. So from there, it's no surprise at all that Demon Hunter would have trouble distinguishing itself. That's my $0.02.
I remember a bluepost from Brode who compared Hs classes to MTG colors. He concluded that the ideal number of classes for HS to have...would actually be lower than 9, but they went with the 9 wow classes anyway for obvious flavor reasons.
Quote From Author
So I'm asking, for them to not screw again, How should they implement Monks in Hearthstone to make it feels unique ?
I'm not sure they should consider adding another one at this point. Or they could do temporary yearly classes that rotate alongside the sets that introduce them. For now they should focus on DH... and Paladin + Shaman, so that those two classes have stable identities that don't make them either uberbroken or completely unplayable with no in-between.
When DH was leaked 1 day before the actual reveal (iirc), my guess was that DH would be a 1-rotation-only class, then it would rotate out like the rest of the year of the Phoenix. It would be the theme of the year kinda like lackeys the year before. I thought that because, in WoW, DH is a very restrictive class both gameplay-wise and flavor-wise.
My guess turned out to be wrong. DH is here to say, then my first thought was "but how are they going to keep innovating on a class with such restrictive themes? Is every card in DH going to be some elf with glowing tattoos?"
Gameplay-wise for a start. Yes, game mechanics being shared between classes isn't a problem per se. However other classes (except maybe hunter) also have their own central unique or near-unique mechanics. Ramp for Druid; Overload & Totems for Shaman; Freeze for Mage; etc...DH's central theme is hero attack, a theme it shares with Druid, Warrior, and now Shaman as well. Hero attack is also a theme that is restrictive and therefore difficult to build on as class identity. I really fear this theme will run out of steam soon...DH lacks a central theme.
Flavor-wise, as mentioned above, half of DH cards are elves with glowing tattoos. It's not surprising. The thing is, all 9 base classes are general D&D/fantasy archetypes and therefore broad enough in their flavor to fit in plenty of themes (Dragonmaw Overseer being a priest card is BS though). DH on the other hand is specific to the warcraft universe, it has no other representation in pop culture, and is a class restricted to night/blood elves. Ofc DH is going to be full of elves with green tattoos...
I'm not like Brode and am not opposed to new classes entirely (heck, I made custom ones), but DH is the worst class they could have picked out of the 3 expansion classes from WoW. DK and Monk would have been better. DK in particular has already been toyed with in KFT on top of being a fan favorite, and Monk is an internally diverse class like Druid. But I guess that, hey, it's Illidan so it attracts fangirls and emo kids to HS?
I'm not entirely pessimistic though. If you look at HS history, the 9 base classes also took time to be fully refined. Burgle Rogue and Evolve Shaman didn't exist before the namesake cards were released. Hunter was entirely one-dimensional ("SMorc and/or play big stuff on curve") before 2017 (unfortunately Barrens made it one-dimensional again). Maybe Team 5 is actively working on refining DH too? Sigils can be promising if they expand on them. Soul Fragments are nice too even if they're dual-class.
Agreed. Prior to Legion, Guldan was just a generic cartoon villain being evil for the sake of being evil. Then the Harbingers and Chronicles fleshed out his tragic backstory. I like that there is still an ambiguity as to why he was shunned by his clan. Was it something he did, was it because he has cluster B disorders, or was it gratuitous because he is a cripple? Was Evil Guldan born or made? Likely a mix of both.
The puzzles were a nice change compared to other adventures. Too bad I had to concede the Malfurion one (stuck at Ragnaros) to do this one.
You VS the guy she tells you not to worry about.
I'm dead set on trying a BG card for this theme. For science.
Still not sure at which tier I should put it.
I must also add that the meal gives +3/+3 to ANY minion. When you play Cookie, you're definitely NOT playing murloc. Also, one precision: If you buy the 3rd copy of a murloc it will still become golden and not turn into a meal since the text on Cookie says "after".
I am willing to take the risk. I almost exclusively play BG nowadays and I think many voters would be happy to see a BG card.
This is a murlocization of an idea of mine that made it into hearthcards' gallery. I have some doubts about stats and balance though. (golden version would give two meals)
I'm currently at work and imgur is blocked so here's feedback for people who didn't post on imgur:
@Lundy: Tirion is great for memes and the effect is very decent. It will perform well and I will def give it 5 stars.
@anchor4m: Lilidan is the best card but the stats should be changed. I'd make it a 2/4 for balance. I'd also change the name because I'm fed up with every DH card name being a variation of "Illidan"
BACK TO ULDUM
A Hearthstone Battlegrounds expansion
Welcome back to Uldum, adventurers! This place has been really calm since the League of Explorers left, but people here still need my services! By the way, do you remember the plagues Rafaam unleashed? It turns out they are very nice when you take the time to know them! Hey, why don't you take a seat? Are you interested by this camel? Come on! I really struggle to sell it.
THE SET
Vesh
K'zrath
Xatma
Icarax
Tekhan
Regular
Golden
Regular
Golden
Regular
Golden
Regular
Golden
Regular
Tokens
Regular
Golden
I feel like posting.
Agreed. Stormwind has so many good characters that would make perfect rogues heroes like Mathias Shaw or Elling Trias (who appears twice in the trailer!) and instead we get Katrana Prestor who should obviously have been a Legendary instead. And as a mage hero on top of what. Just...why?
To me it looks like the set's inconspicuously broken neutral common. Many decks can't ping on turn 1, or only at a cost.
"More work?"
No rogue hero for a SW-based expansion?
Mathias Shaw, Eiling Trias, Renzik all crying alone in a corner.
Blizz pls.
My predictions:
* Lady Katrana Prestor (AKA Onyxia's human form for those not into WoW lore) featured prominently since she's been teased at the end of the Xyrella campaign
* Mathias Shaw hero portrait for the bundle
* Gnoll tribe in BGs
Bad timing. TBC Classic just released so odds are that we'll struggle to play.
I agree with others that Overload isn't the problem in and of itself. The problem is Overload within the Shaman class, whose true issue lies in its class identity. Overload right now can be useful in 2 ways:
Paladin and Shaman are the worst designed classes of Hearthstone*. If you look at HS history, those two classes are most often found at the extreme of a meta. Either completely OP or unplayable, but rarely just balanced. Right now, Paladin is on top and Shaman sucks, however back in MSoG in 2016 it was the other way around. The core set revamp could have fixed both classes, but it didn't. That's because the problem lies in the two classes fundamental mechanics.
Focusing on Shaman specifically to stay on topic, its main issue is its reliance on snowballing and permanent board control to win. If shaman loses board control, it loses. It has no comeback mechanics.
Its second main issue is the weakness of totems, which is linked to the first one because totems have powerful ongoing effects but do nothing on their own. Basic totems in particular are an issue. Not only is shaman HP badly designed from a new player POV ("what's a basic totem? Why are all other hero powers explicit but this one isn't? Why are the totems so complex?") but its fundamental randomness makes it useless. I'm in favor of changing it so you can choose which totem you summon (and making the upgraded version summon 2 totems). I'm also in favor of simplifying by removing one totem, preferably one of the two "complicated" ones (Healing Totem or [Hearthstone Card (Strength of Earth Totem) Not Found]).
Apart from that, well, I don't know what devs can do to make the shaman class more viable and stable. Perhaps the new spell schools will bring something to the table? Shaman has synergies with 3 spells schools (fire, frost, nature) so perhaps there is something there.
* Also Warlock, however Guldan's issues are of a different nature so I won't focus on them here.
Personnaly I'd still like to see your kobold tribe. I doubt theyre 100% identical to the new quilboar tribe, are they?
As for nagas, I like the concept of attack thresholds, but it is paradoxical that the threshold is higher on golden versions. It means it's a straight up downgrade. Also I too "bgfied" Zola the Gorgon in the past and I've been told it'd be too OP in BGs due to "golden" having a huge gameplay impact.
GRIM ENCOUNTERS
A Hearthstone Battlegrounds expansion
Everyone, get in here and welcome to the Grim Guzzler! I'm Plugger Spazzing, the boss of this place, and from now on I'll be your host. Our beloved Bob unfortunately had to take a break for reasons totally unrelated to me (just ask my laywer). Six years ago, a horde of adventurers paying a children's card game ransacked my bar just for fun. But now, we're back in business! If you like beer, brawls, literal hot chicks, brawls, and getting in here, this is the place for you! Did I say brawls already? 'Cause that's important! Here's what we have in store today:
(Note: I started this before Quilboars were revealed, I didn't expect they would have such a similar mechanic)
THE SET
Emperor Thaurissan
Coren Direbrew
(only available when Dark Irons are present)
High Justice Grimstone
War Master Voone
Do note that Nagmara's availability is tied to the Demon tag and not the Dark Iron tag, due to the fact that she generates Pints herself so her effect isn't useless when DI are absent.
Do note that Nagmara's availability is tied to the Dark Iron tag and not the Elemental tag. Unlike Nagmara, Alemental would be useless without DIs.
PLUGGER SPAZZRING'S LINES
The new bartender isn't as nice as Bob...
Start of game
Random during preparation phase
Random when buying minion
Goldenize a minion
Upgrade Tavern
Freeze minions
Before fight
After fight (win)
After fight (lose)
After game (promoting Tavern Ticket)
Also, differentiate left-most and right-most synergies.
I remember a bluepost from Brode who compared Hs classes to MTG colors. He concluded that the ideal number of classes for HS to have...would actually be lower than 9, but they went with the 9 wow classes anyway for obvious flavor reasons.
I'm not sure they should consider adding another one at this point. Or they could do temporary yearly classes that rotate alongside the sets that introduce them. For now they should focus on DH... and Paladin + Shaman, so that those two classes have stable identities that don't make them either uberbroken or completely unplayable with no in-between.
I completely agree with OP.
When DH was leaked 1 day before the actual reveal (iirc), my guess was that DH would be a 1-rotation-only class, then it would rotate out like the rest of the year of the Phoenix. It would be the theme of the year kinda like lackeys the year before. I thought that because, in WoW, DH is a very restrictive class both gameplay-wise and flavor-wise.
My guess turned out to be wrong. DH is here to say, then my first thought was "but how are they going to keep innovating on a class with such restrictive themes? Is every card in DH going to be some elf with glowing tattoos?"
Gameplay-wise for a start. Yes, game mechanics being shared between classes isn't a problem per se. However other classes (except maybe hunter) also have their own central unique or near-unique mechanics. Ramp for Druid; Overload & Totems for Shaman; Freeze for Mage; etc...DH's central theme is hero attack, a theme it shares with Druid, Warrior, and now Shaman as well. Hero attack is also a theme that is restrictive and therefore difficult to build on as class identity. I really fear this theme will run out of steam soon...DH lacks a central theme.
Flavor-wise, as mentioned above, half of DH cards are elves with glowing tattoos. It's not surprising. The thing is, all 9 base classes are general D&D/fantasy archetypes and therefore broad enough in their flavor to fit in plenty of themes (Dragonmaw Overseer being a priest card is BS though). DH on the other hand is specific to the warcraft universe, it has no other representation in pop culture, and is a class restricted to night/blood elves. Ofc DH is going to be full of elves with green tattoos...
I'm not like Brode and am not opposed to new classes entirely (heck, I made custom ones), but DH is the worst class they could have picked out of the 3 expansion classes from WoW. DK and Monk would have been better. DK in particular has already been toyed with in KFT on top of being a fan favorite, and Monk is an internally diverse class like Druid. But I guess that, hey, it's Illidan so it attracts fangirls and emo kids to HS?
I'm not entirely pessimistic though. If you look at HS history, the 9 base classes also took time to be fully refined. Burgle Rogue and Evolve Shaman didn't exist before the namesake cards were released. Hunter was entirely one-dimensional ("SMorc and/or play big stuff on curve") before 2017 (unfortunately Barrens made it one-dimensional again). Maybe Team 5 is actively working on refining DH too? Sigils can be promising if they expand on them. Soul Fragments are nice too even if they're dual-class.
You too?! I am working on a Battlegrounds expansion based on the Grim Guzzler, with the Dark Iron tribe and Pints that give +3 Health!
Procrastinating too much as usual :(