I am in favor of reverting to when she couldn't generate herself, but I completely forgot that it would be a non-issue with the 18.0.1 patch; nice catch!
I think a better question is which cards should NOT be un-nerfed. Many of the cards received nerfs because they were dominating the meta, but significantly fewer received nerfs because they were over-tuned initially (which means they are still seeing play in their current iteration). The cards that were over-tuned in the first place are the cards I think are more interesting to discuss--generally, these over-tuned cards are still seeing play in their current form.
Cards I don't think should be un-nerfed:
EVIL Miscreant - This card is a staple in Rogue, and it still sees play in wild; reverting its health seems completely unnecessary since it is so efficient in its current form.
Tortollan Pilgrim - They nerfed this card due to the potential degeneracy of the Potion of Illusion combo, and, while I loved the genius of the deck, I don't think the combo is healthy for Hearthstone (especially with cards like Ice Block).
Faceless Corruptor - At 5 attack, this card was incredibly difficult to manage, and it sees a healthy amount of play as is.
Ancharrr - Still a very strong card with 2 durability, and the extra durability doesn't seem necessary unless they want to increase the power level going back into wild.
Original Dragonqueen Alexstrasza - Being able to generate herself was absurd and ridiculously overpowered; being able to generate 0-mana dragons in wild is strong, but not absurd.EDIT: "Original" Dragonqueen is a non-issue thanks to patch 18.0.1 as pointed out by Skorpionex; as such, no need for Dragonqueen to be on this "don't un-nerf" list anymore.
Eye Beam - No need for this to cost 0 in the outcast position seeing as it still sees just as much play as before.
Battlefiend - a 1-mana 2/2 with an infinite upside? No thank you.
Altruis the Outcast - Demon Hunter is already so fast, and Altruis enabled absurd "enemy" damage that was too efficient for 3-mana; additionally, Odd-Demon Hunter doesn't need this card as a finisher/board clear in addition to everything it already has in my opinion.
On the fence about un-nerfing:
Mogu Fleshshaper - Too easy to play at 7 mana, but not that great (in wild) at 9 mana, so I think this deserves the Giggling Inventor treatment to make it 8 mana.
Corrupt Elementalist/Dragon's Pack - I think nerfing both was overkill but un-nerfing both might be too good... I think one or the other should be un-nerfed, but I'm not sure both should be simultaneously (I am assuming Invocation of Frost is un-nerfed for this scenario).EDIT: The more I think about these cards, the more I think that un-nerfing all Galakrond, the Tempest cards is fine in the wild meta. Galakrond, the Tempest has potential to be a competitive deck in wild, so it would be nice to give Shaman something other than Even to be competitive with.
Bad Luck Albatross - Definitely too slow at 4 mana for wild, but 3 mana makes it almost auto-include due to how overpowered and prevalent highlander decks are because the worst case scenario is you have a 3-mana 4/3 that gives 2 bad draws to your opponent. I think the card should be un-nerfed somehow to help the highlander epidemic, but I'm not sure the best way to un-nerf it so it isn't an auto-include card.
Galakrond, the Nightmare - Four 0-mana cards was ridiculously strong, and, while wild is hyper-aggro, the high-rolls off of four 0-mana cards is absolutely absurd. I'm concerned that un-nerfing this card might allow Rogue to slaughter any non-hyper-aggro decks in wild simply because of the existence of Lorekeeper Polkelt. There are already highlander Rogue lists that use Spectral Pillager OTKs with the nerfed version of this card, so I fear for a Raza Priest version of Galakrond Rogue.
Anything I didn't mention could safely be un-nerfed in my opinion. The only card I didn't discuss that might still cause problems if un-nerfed is Necrium Apothecary, but I don't think the extreme high-roll of the card's potential is too ridiculous for wild (maybe someone could prove otherwise if the card is reverted).
These are just my opinions, so feel free to disagree!
Lightforged is one of my go-to's for Paladin, especially since the Pure archetype popped up. It just feels right every time, and I'm glad others will be able to acquire it if they want it.
Spellbreaker would definitely help tone down the Libram package. For whatever reason, they decided Spellbreaker should be HOF'd, and so we just have to deal with a post-Spellbreaker standard meta.
I respect that DH is an attacking and not just weapon class, but nerfing the card to 4 mana seems like it will banish it to Shadowflame/[Hearthstone Card (Blade Furry) Not Found] tier of uselessness. Regardless, the card needs some kind of alteration, but I don't know what exactly.
As for Overgrowth, I meant that, at 10 mana, perhaps the card should draw 2 cards instead of only 1 if the mana cost of Overgrowth is changed to 5. The card definitely should not be 5 mana that says "Gain two empty Mana Crystals. Draw two cards." Instead, I meant Excess Mana should draw 2 cards for a 5 mana Overgrowth specifically. If a 5-mana Overgrowth only draws 1 card off of Excess Mana, that might be what prevents the card from being playable; the decks would likely be super high-roll-y and your winrate would likely go hand-in-hand with whether or not you played a 5-mana Overgrowth on curve. Whereas, even if you didn't draw Overgrowth before turn 10, you could at least draw 2 cards for 5 mana.
I don't think aggro DH is the problem specifically, but aggro cards in general. 1-mana cards are unhealthy for a game because they incentivize fast play. Team 5 clearly likes the idea of pushing cheap, fast cards, so Hearthstone is only going to become more aggro-oriented over time. Cards like Acrobatics and Stiltstepper aren't necessarily the problem; rather, the fact that the cards that you can and want to play that have synergy with those cards is ultimately the problem. If you are happy to draw two 1-mana cards on turn 5+, that indicates that the game is rewarding low-cost cards too much. This problem is more about game design preference, and Team 5 clearly prefers aggro to be strong.
As I said, I don't necessarily think Libram Paladin is broken, but I do think it needs to be adjusted in some way. It's too strong for its versatility in my opinion. Personally, I wish the package were more defense oriented, removing the incessant buffs from Libram of Wisdom; unfortunately, I don't know how to change Libram of Wisdom to match that style of play. Librams have counterplay, but their strength and the lack of solid Silence mechanics makes it really difficult for half of the other classes to deal with them. I think it just forces the meta's hand too much because of its strength and infinite capabilities.
Twin Slice is going to be good as long as it is a cheap Twinspell; I think making it give only +1 attack for each slice keeps it playable but not auto-include in every DH list.
Blade Dance is one of the egregious cards to me for DH because there are so many ways to get ridiculously high attack for DH. I like the idea of changing it to be "Deal damage equal to your hero's Weapon to 3 random enemy minions." while keeping the mana cost the same. This change keeps the card as cheap removal, but requires weapon usage; moreover, it lets Team 5 experiment with a large attack "control" weapon at some point to have synergy with the card.
Shardshatter Mystic is definitely very strong, and I don't see why they power-crept on Duskbreaker, so it seems appropriate to make it a 4-mana 3/3, especially considering cards like Arcanosaur and, more recently, Fire Breather exist, which are obviously way worse than Shardshatter Mystic.
Mana-cheating only has potential to break the game, so I think nerfing Overgrowth to 5-mana is appropriate; it also gains new synergies in the process which would be cool and probably prevent the card from becoming unplayable. Maybe it should also draw 2 cards if you have 10 mana crystals?
I don't think Boggspine Knuckles is the problem, but rather the way the transform/evolve mechanic works. As many have suggested in the past, I think the evolve mechanic should be based on the mana-cost of the minion when it is played rather than what the card text is. Obviously, this method can complicate the coding of the game or in-game understanding, but it seems like using the green/redmodifiers for text that they already use for when a card's stats change would work in this context. I think this change makes transform/evolve higher skill while feeling less high-roll-y.
Bladestorm is definitely good, but not sure it warrants a nerf. It doesn't feel nearly as strong as other versatile board clears that have existed (e.g. Defile, Warpath), and it also doesn't feel horrible to play against.
As for Risky Skipper, I think changing its mana cost or its health makes the card unplayable. At 2 mana, it can't stop aggro and probably acts only as a weird combo card for armor. At 2 health, it can only stop the smallest of aggro boards and likely turns exclusively into a combo card similar to what happened with Bloodsworn Mercenary after its nerf. I believe the best change to the card that doesn't kill it is simply removing the Pirate tag. From a flavor standpoint, I hate this change, but from a competitive standpoint, it removes the abundant Pirate synergies in Warrior--specifically the targeted card draw--all while keeping the power of the card on the board.
In addition to these changes, I also think Libram Paladin is in dire need of changes. The problem with the package is not that it's strong, but that it is oppressive, infinite, versatile, and excessive. The package supports aggro, tempo, mid-range, control, and combo! If you want constant board buffs, Librams have you covered. If you want board clears, Librams have you covered. If you want defense, Librams have you covered. If you want tempo curve plays, Librams have you covered. The package desperately needs some kind of re-work, but I don't suspect we'll ever get it.
I don't have any plans to alter this list based on Darkmoon Faire's cards because I don't think many of the new cards fit into the game plan of this particular version of even Warlock. There is one card that might be worth experimenting with: Deck of Chaos. I think Deck of Chaos will be too slow for this list (6-mana do nothing spell); however, dropping a 0-mana 20/8 Molten Giant or 0-mana 12/8 Mountain Giant or a 2-mana Abyssal Summoner or a... (you get the point)... could be really strong for this archetype. If you have Deck of Chaos, I think it might sub into this list pretty well over Mojomaster Zihi.
The new set definitely brought some interesting even cost cards that could be implemented in a list that has a different game plan or tries to be a little more high-roll-y. As mentioned above, Deck of Chaos is definitely one of the cards that might be worth experimenting with--especially if we add in cards like Faceless Shambler, Enhanced Dreadlord, Zzeraku the Warped, etc.
The new set might also enable a control-oriented even Warlock thanks to cards like C'Thun, the Shattered, Cascading Disaster, and Fire Breather. It would certainly be easy to cycle through the deck to draw all of C'Thun's pieces with the 1-mana Life Tap. The win condition might then be focused around C'Thun instead of Giants.
Lastly, "Corrupt" even Warlock could work as well--either as a control list or as burn list. Tickatus and Cascading Disaster would work really well in a control-focused list (maybe even Highlander?). On the other hand, Circus Medic and Y'Shaarj, the Defiler have already shown their potential, so I don't see why they couldn't work in even Warlock too! Knife Vendor could possibly fit into a burn list as well.
This question has me inspired, and I might just experiment with a new list. However, I don't think I'll change this list unless my experimentation shows that this list could benefit from some new cards.
This card should fit into the current soul fragment list really well as a double damage finisher with Aldrachi Warblades, right?
Even on turn 10 if you have the weapon already equipped, then play Il'gynoth-> Soulshard Lapidary -> Twin Slice would be 18 damage to face potentially... Yikes!
I haven't tried out anything in particular, but I agree that Preparation is probably the first to go in this list. I think running Depth Charge is probably the best replacement as it will give a smooth curve to counter hyper aggro if we hit it (Depth Charge -> Doomsayer -> Deathlord).
Many old lists use Glacial Shard as it acts as a body and a freeze, but I'm not sure if it would be better or worse than Depth Charge.
I also considered Mistress of Mixtures, so she might be worth adding for the body and the heal in the early game. Additionally, Wax Elemental and even Shieldbearer might be worth adding to slow down the opponent for a turn or two.
"Ever since Ashes of Outlands came along, he's now one away from a full set"
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I thought it would be related to Illidan or Xavius, but neither of those turned out to be the answer from what I can tell. I frankly don't know where to go from here.
Delightful!
via GIPHY
This looks like it will be a lot of fun!
Thanks, OutofCards team!
I am in favor of reverting to when she couldn't generate herself, but I completely forgot that it would be a non-issue with the 18.0.1 patch; nice catch!
I think a better question is which cards should NOT be un-nerfed. Many of the cards received nerfs because they were dominating the meta, but significantly fewer received nerfs because they were over-tuned initially (which means they are still seeing play in their current iteration). The cards that were over-tuned in the first place are the cards I think are more interesting to discuss--generally, these over-tuned cards are still seeing play in their current form.
Cards I don't think should be un-nerfed:
On the fence about un-nerfing:
Anything I didn't mention could safely be un-nerfed in my opinion. The only card I didn't discuss that might still cause problems if un-nerfed is Necrium Apothecary, but I don't think the extreme high-roll of the card's potential is too ridiculous for wild (maybe someone could prove otherwise if the card is reverted).
These are just my opinions, so feel free to disagree!
Lightforged is one of my go-to's for Paladin, especially since the Pure archetype popped up. It just feels right every time, and I'm glad others will be able to acquire it if they want it.
We can only hope for the classic rework to come; until then who... who.
Spellbreaker would definitely help tone down the Libram package. For whatever reason, they decided Spellbreaker should be HOF'd, and so we just have to deal with a post-Spellbreaker standard meta.
I respect that DH is an attacking and not just weapon class, but nerfing the card to 4 mana seems like it will banish it to Shadowflame/[Hearthstone Card (Blade Furry) Not Found] tier of uselessness. Regardless, the card needs some kind of alteration, but I don't know what exactly.
As for Overgrowth, I meant that, at 10 mana, perhaps the card should draw 2 cards instead of only 1 if the mana cost of Overgrowth is changed to 5. The card definitely should not be 5 mana that says "Gain two empty Mana Crystals. Draw two cards." Instead, I meant Excess Mana should draw 2 cards for a 5 mana Overgrowth specifically. If a 5-mana Overgrowth only draws 1 card off of Excess Mana, that might be what prevents the card from being playable; the decks would likely be super high-roll-y and your winrate would likely go hand-in-hand with whether or not you played a 5-mana Overgrowth on curve. Whereas, even if you didn't draw Overgrowth before turn 10, you could at least draw 2 cards for 5 mana.
I don't think aggro DH is the problem specifically, but aggro cards in general. 1-mana cards are unhealthy for a game because they incentivize fast play. Team 5 clearly likes the idea of pushing cheap, fast cards, so Hearthstone is only going to become more aggro-oriented over time. Cards like Acrobatics and Stiltstepper aren't necessarily the problem; rather, the fact that the cards that you can and want to play that have synergy with those cards is ultimately the problem. If you are happy to draw two 1-mana cards on turn 5+, that indicates that the game is rewarding low-cost cards too much. This problem is more about game design preference, and Team 5 clearly prefers aggro to be strong.
As I said, I don't necessarily think Libram Paladin is broken, but I do think it needs to be adjusted in some way. It's too strong for its versatility in my opinion. Personally, I wish the package were more defense oriented, removing the incessant buffs from Libram of Wisdom; unfortunately, I don't know how to change Libram of Wisdom to match that style of play. Librams have counterplay, but their strength and the lack of solid Silence mechanics makes it really difficult for half of the other classes to deal with them. I think it just forces the meta's hand too much because of its strength and infinite capabilities.
Twin Slice is going to be good as long as it is a cheap Twinspell; I think making it give only +1 attack for each slice keeps it playable but not auto-include in every DH list.
Blade Dance is one of the egregious cards to me for DH because there are so many ways to get ridiculously high attack for DH. I like the idea of changing it to be "Deal damage equal to your hero's Weapon to 3 random enemy minions." while keeping the mana cost the same. This change keeps the card as cheap removal, but requires weapon usage; moreover, it lets Team 5 experiment with a large attack "control" weapon at some point to have synergy with the card.
Shardshatter Mystic is definitely very strong, and I don't see why they power-crept on Duskbreaker, so it seems appropriate to make it a 4-mana 3/3, especially considering cards like Arcanosaur and, more recently, Fire Breather exist, which are obviously way worse than Shardshatter Mystic.
Mana-cheating only has potential to break the game, so I think nerfing Overgrowth to 5-mana is appropriate; it also gains new synergies in the process which would be cool and probably prevent the card from becoming unplayable. Maybe it should also draw 2 cards if you have 10 mana crystals?
I don't think Boggspine Knuckles is the problem, but rather the way the transform/evolve mechanic works. As many have suggested in the past, I think the evolve mechanic should be based on the mana-cost of the minion when it is played rather than what the card text is. Obviously, this method can complicate the coding of the game or in-game understanding, but it seems like using the green/red modifiers for text that they already use for when a card's stats change would work in this context. I think this change makes transform/evolve higher skill while feeling less high-roll-y.
Bladestorm is definitely good, but not sure it warrants a nerf. It doesn't feel nearly as strong as other versatile board clears that have existed (e.g. Defile, Warpath), and it also doesn't feel horrible to play against.
As for Risky Skipper, I think changing its mana cost or its health makes the card unplayable. At 2 mana, it can't stop aggro and probably acts only as a weird combo card for armor. At 2 health, it can only stop the smallest of aggro boards and likely turns exclusively into a combo card similar to what happened with Bloodsworn Mercenary after its nerf. I believe the best change to the card that doesn't kill it is simply removing the Pirate tag. From a flavor standpoint, I hate this change, but from a competitive standpoint, it removes the abundant Pirate synergies in Warrior--specifically the targeted card draw--all while keeping the power of the card on the board.
In addition to these changes, I also think Libram Paladin is in dire need of changes. The problem with the package is not that it's strong, but that it is oppressive, infinite, versatile, and excessive. The package supports aggro, tempo, mid-range, control, and combo! If you want constant board buffs, Librams have you covered. If you want board clears, Librams have you covered. If you want defense, Librams have you covered. If you want tempo curve plays, Librams have you covered. The package desperately needs some kind of re-work, but I don't suspect we'll ever get it.
I don't have any plans to alter this list based on Darkmoon Faire's cards because I don't think many of the new cards fit into the game plan of this particular version of even Warlock. There is one card that might be worth experimenting with: Deck of Chaos. I think Deck of Chaos will be too slow for this list (6-mana do nothing spell); however, dropping a 0-mana 20/8 Molten Giant or 0-mana 12/8 Mountain Giant or a 2-mana Abyssal Summoner or a... (you get the point)... could be really strong for this archetype. If you have Deck of Chaos, I think it might sub into this list pretty well over Mojomaster Zihi.
The new set definitely brought some interesting even cost cards that could be implemented in a list that has a different game plan or tries to be a little more high-roll-y. As mentioned above, Deck of Chaos is definitely one of the cards that might be worth experimenting with--especially if we add in cards like Faceless Shambler, Enhanced Dreadlord, Zzeraku the Warped, etc.
The new set might also enable a control-oriented even Warlock thanks to cards like C'Thun, the Shattered, Cascading Disaster, and Fire Breather. It would certainly be easy to cycle through the deck to draw all of C'Thun's pieces with the 1-mana Life Tap. The win condition might then be focused around C'Thun instead of Giants.
Lastly, "Corrupt" even Warlock could work as well--either as a control list or as burn list. Tickatus and Cascading Disaster would work really well in a control-focused list (maybe even Highlander?). On the other hand, Circus Medic and Y'Shaarj, the Defiler have already shown their potential, so I don't see why they couldn't work in even Warlock too! Knife Vendor could possibly fit into a burn list as well.
This question has me inspired, and I might just experiment with a new list. However, I don't think I'll change this list unless my experimentation shows that this list could benefit from some new cards.
Akali, the Rhino is looking big sad when compared to Claw Machine.
Obviously, Akali has a stronger effect overall, but at the cost of being unplayable.
Thanks for the feature! I love browsing through these and finding a list I made.
I hope even more people get to enjoy seeing the tentacles ripping their opponent's deck apart!
AWESOME flavor.... but probably not going to make the cut in any legitimate decks.
This card should fit into the current soul fragment list really well as a double damage finisher with Aldrachi Warblades, right?
Even on turn 10 if you have the weapon already equipped, then play Il'gynoth -> Soulshard Lapidary -> Twin Slice would be 18 damage to face potentially... Yikes!
I haven't tried out anything in particular, but I agree that Preparation is probably the first to go in this list. I think running Depth Charge is probably the best replacement as it will give a smooth curve to counter hyper aggro if we hit it (Depth Charge -> Doomsayer -> Deathlord).
Many old lists use Glacial Shard as it acts as a body and a freeze, but I'm not sure if it would be better or worse than Depth Charge.
I also considered Mistress of Mixtures, so she might be worth adding for the body and the heal in the early game. Additionally, Wax Elemental and even Shieldbearer might be worth adding to slow down the opponent for a turn or two.
After thinking about it more, if you're looking for a better counter to aggro/tempo, cutting Preparation, Flik Skyshiv, and N'Zoth, the Corruptor for some combination of Depth Charge, Glacial Shard, and/or Mistress of Mixtures/Wax Elemental/Shieldbearer might be just what the deck needs.
When I get a chance to test it out, I'll report back if there is anything useful I found.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked the deck, and I hope you get to see many tentacles activate on your opponent's side of the board!
I seem to be the only one struggling with these 2; can anyone help?
"Beware of witches handing out free apples."
"Ever since Ashes of Outlands came along, he's now one away from a full set"