Quote: "C. crystal arrow should cost more, shouldn't draw an extra card (That's just gratuitous) and it shouldn't be created instantly in hand"
Ashe Creates the crystal arrow on top of your deck and therefore it is fine that it draws a card since it would otherwise replace your next draw entirely
That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.
I think this is exactly right. It may have been rare, but it's clearly pretty popular right now - it's considered an S Tier meta deck on Mobalytics. It looks like Riot realized this deck would be a problem after the other nerfs they made, and changed Iceborn Legacy so that it would really fit better into the clone decks they want it to go into, and not the Spiders deck it would be going into today. This represents the broader philosophy Riot has espoused for this game - each card should be playable, and should fit into at least one particular deck, even if that deck isn't very powerful.
I suspect also Brood Awakening forced them to nerf Iceborn Legacy too or should i say a rework instead of nerf ? because, after you use Brood Awakening, if there is not bunch of removals/pings or an AOE spell in your opponent's hand, it is easier to use Iceborn Legacy on a spiderling.
That wasn't the case before because the list i have mentioned before did not use Brood Awakening just because old Iceborn Legacy was just enough to carry you to mid-late game. After Brood Awakening buff, probably Iceborn Legacy is way too powerful for what it does.
I DONT CARE ABOUT STREAMERS OPPINIONS OR THEIR DECKS I CAN THINK, PLAY BUILD DECKS AND EVALUATE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS ON MY OWN AND I DO NOT TOLERATE IF ANYBODY ASSUMES THAT I JUST COPYPASTE SOME STREAMERS OPPINION AS MINE
PS: that last Statement just had to be to stress my standpoint
I did not say that you are part of the crowd. People in forums, people who shares their thoughts on forums are already mostly players who plays the games with their own way. We forum people tend to discover the game with our own style and share our experiences in forums. That's why we are part of the forum and opening threads about the game and our ideas/experiences.
I know you don't copypaste some streamer's opinions as yours. That's why i started as "you might not know " as well. So don't be mad. I said that crowd example just because %60-70 of playerbase play games, especially card games just like that. You might not be the part of the crowd and have a unique way to play. I'm not judging anyone here. I'm just speaking in general.
The fact that most of the crowd (%70) exists and plays as i describe above doesn't change the truth that there is also the %30 exception part which is always changes the experiments results in sciences and logic. Statistics can't do anything but saying "There are always exceptions" fact at the end. This is why statistics mostly sucks because it generalize the fact as that is the only truth. :) it even puts us the same %30 as "unique guys" even if we all are completely different. :)
you can see that for medicines for example. "That medicine is effective %70 of patients." but the truth is you might be on the %30 part and that medicine might not be effective on you but statistics don't interest in that and says that the medicine is effective enough. :)
I am still pissed that the change ruined my heimerdinger deck that was actually very good in to every matchup and literally saw 0 play by anyone but me.
Heimerdinger turrets would be a good target for the legacy but since they are 1 health they just don't really work with it anymore.
Also who said that they have to buff brood awakening when spiders were a core part of the meta already? Its so annoying to see riot streamlining the game (like they did with flash of briliance + lux) just to make it easier for them to balance that streamlined game.
It discourages to go offroad with your deckbuilding and just is what makes me quit cardgames when it reaches too huge levels.
That deck was quite rare to see but so powerful and successful and easy to make you at least diamond rank. I assume that this change was a bit needed because there are so much ways to summon Spiderlings and everytime they come, They are buffed as hell. I guess they want to decrease its earlier power level and even better at late game which is quite reasonable when i think of that deck.
So, Crowd might not know about Iceborn Legacy's power level because, you know crowd only follows their leaders(streamers) and netdecks most of the time. If that deck did shined with some popular streamers, You could see some QQ threads around reddit or somewhere else that calls Iceborn Legacy should have been nerfed to the hell.
I know about the deck but i think that iceborn legacy should not be as vulnerable to removal as it is now. If you don't run cheap protection spell and get it into your hand to respond, it always will be a big risk to cast the legacy.
The cardchange misses it's purpose to let the card find it's way into new decks.
All it does is to make the decks that use this card easier to counter what will cause the opposite
I DONT CARE ABOUT STREAMERS OPPINIONS OR THEIR DECKS I CAN THINK, PLAY BUILD DECKS AND EVALUATE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS ON MY OWN AND I DO NOT TOLERATE IF ANYBODY ASSUMES THAT I JUST COPYPASTE SOME STREAMERS OPPINION AS MINE
PS: that last Statement just had to be to stress my standpoint
By drawing the right cards in time i talk about boardwipes that are needed to stop aggro, you eighter get them early or you get overun.
Also you got an completely strange idea of combo decks if you think that control beats combo (aka decks that knows ways to oneshot kill you if they get their combo assembled). Whoever told you that control is bad versus aggro can't have a clue of what he is talking about since control uses the most removal to stop aggro from doing it's thing.
I dont know if you want to have a state of control like in mtg or hearthstone where you just spam value genegerators(like PWs), play denial(counterspells/discard) and cheap boardwipes in a deck, hope that you draw the fitting cards in time and call that a deck/game.
That should not become the concept in LoR because it is just a joykilling concept (to lock games down).
MTG and Hearthstone are the two most popular and successful CCGs, and have been for years and years. I certainly don't think Runeterra should try to be exactly like them (after all, if it were exactly like them what would be the point of playing?) but clearly people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy those games to this day, so Runeterra should probably take some notes.
So you say that you want lock down to be a thing in runeterra? Thanks for your honest degeneracy :)
Lemme give my 2 cents about the current state of control aswell guys:
While it is certainly not really possible to permanently control the game and lock it down completely it is not difficult to make decks that make it to turn 6/7 consistantly.
At that point you have to develop your wincondition so that cards that are 8 mana+ are not meant to played on regular basis and are properly powerfull in return
I dont know if you want to have a state of control like in mtg or hearthstone where you just spam value genegerators(like PWs), play denial(counterspells/discard) and cheap boardwipes in a deck, hope that you draw the fitting cards in time and call that a deck/game.
That should not become the concept in LoR because it is just a joykilling concept (to lock games down).
If we slow down the meta by buffing removal we will see more of the higher cost cards getting a problem which would need a lot of further adjustments what would take multiple patches aka multiple months of imbalance (that we just could avoid by not doing it)
Don't worry.. I think they will realize it soon enough.. but It won't be changed until next patch.
IDK what they were thinking when making this a slow spell.. but you can try to protect the tockens with iron elixir or mark of the isles..
It's harder to play but much more rewarding.
I actually play the elixir already but it makes the card so much more clunky to play+ it still wont work against ionian will, deny and vengance and only is capable of blocking 1 damage removal which your opponent can have 2 of
I know most of you guys havent even heard of this card before and proably none of you heard of this card since the changes made to it.
What it does is that it gives a unit a buff permanently and gives the same buff to every copy on the board or created in the future.
In the latest patch riot decided that it was too rarely played and that doubling the effect (+2/+2 from +1/+1) for a higher cost would make the card more reasonable.
But as a compensation they nerfed it's speed from Burst to slow.
What was riot's problem with the card?
-It was very niche and therefore rarely played
- for them the card felt too unimpactful to justify playing it in a deck
Why will it always be a niche card?
The buff provided by the spell i quite small for it's cost (3 mana for +1+1 or 5 mana for 2+2+) so that if you affect only 1 unit by it its not good at all, affecting 2 units makes it okish but not good eighter and it starts getting really strong with 3 unit+ profiting from it's effect.
That makes it a exclusive card for token/ clone decks because you never will consistantly pull 3 copies of a minion anywhere else. (outside of 10 copy drafted expansion decks)
given that the majority of token decks use other ways to temporarily buff their tokens (because it is cheaper and higher tempo) and that you need to play around it, iceborn lagacyBADCARDNAME is easily skipped by most players
So why is the change so bad in my opinion?
Short: it didnt fix the niche situation of the card and made it even unattractive for decks using it
Long: The spell is usually used on token/cloned minions (like spiders) that are all low health and therefore are easy to remove.
Since the legacy is now a slow spell you run a huge risk that your spell gets cancelled by any type of creature removal or simply deny, destroying your deck's winconditon.
That scenario is very likely and COMPLETELY kills the card's and the deck's viability and will lead to even lower playrates of them.
It now is an card that is exclusively for expeditions and even there it will only be used to support decks that draft 10 copies of the same unit card (what should not be a thing in first place)
So lets revert the Changes or make it burst speed again (for 6 mana)
I used to play kata until i realized that she is really not good at all in a competetive environment:
she is a 3 mana: deal 3 damge to whatever blocks her/ to the opponent (what is just a slow play that is not mana efficient)
she then becomes a 4 mana:deal 4 damge to whatever blocks her/ to the opponent (what is not mana efficient) + an attack reset
the 1 time in 20 games where you get to play her 2 times a turn and race down you opponent is not worth putting her in your deck
At no point she helps you to develop your own board while she requires you winning on the board to work AND is easy to remove AND she is just a free feed when she is played against freljord
I totaly agree that they kinda deleted iceborn legacy what is really sad for me.
I was running frostborn legacy heimerdinger with all the crazy 3 mana burst spells that p&Z and Frejord have to create 20+ total power of drill turrets in 1 turn at burst speed (what is kinda the truest form of an otk).
Now i would get a rocket turret for casting it (which is not really usefull) and the spell very likely wont even resolve, making the card an unreasonable risk to run and just kills it's viability completely
Oh boy you seem to have no idea what Ezreal/Heimerdinger(+maybe ashe) decks are around there...
Saying that control didnt take over is something you only can say if you havent seen what P&Z+Freljord decks can do right now.
They go even early (with chumb blockers and removal), have the better midgame (with a bunch on medium sized units that contest for board control+ freezes) and often also outscale you lategame (with the gigantic value that heimer produces) or simply shoot you down in 1 turn with level'd ezreal
.... or they play leveld ashe freeze your board with winter's breath/her crystal arrow and kill you even if you have a full board
No matter what units you play (unless you play P&Z/Noxus all/burn in and race them down) they gonna find a way to win
I have to admit that the full aggro list ist hard to deal with but that is actually true for almost every deck in the game right now. Even control decks often get into the situation that they eighter have avalance in their starting hand or get overun.
While i see that this is what oppressive control deck like heimer+ ezreal decks cause, I also think that noxus/p&z's early game cards might need some adjustments since hardly a deck can acutally deal with the tempo that a 1-3 cost card deck (with not a single bad card) has.
cards that have in mind for that are:
legion saboteur (from 2/1 to 1/2)
Boomcrew rookie (from 1/4 to 1/3)
Brother's Bond (from permanent to until end of turn)
i know that might sound weird to many of you but since the nerfs to elusives and SI in general we got to a point where aggro decks hardly ever win a game against Ezreal/heimerdinger control decks that are using frostbite.
Right now the whole ladder that i experience consists of ezreal decks and its not likely to change anytime soon.
The fact that frostbite makes it way too easy to shut down the board while a transformed ezreal is basically a game over if you aren't out of cards -what is not likely at all- breaks the philosophy of legends of runeterra that the board matters and that creatures are the way to go to win.
What can we do to fix that problem? I think the best way is to change the frostbite mechanic.
My version would be: frostbitten units deal their damage after the enemies fighting with them ( basically give them slow attack) and lose elusive until the end of the turn instead of reducing the current attack to 0.
It might not look like a big deal but it forces frostbite decks to run more creatures and not play 20 frostbite cards + 6 winconditons and removal for the rest.
Maybe you have a different point of view but thats what i experience on high diamond right now
That is the list that brought me from gold 4 to plat 4 in just 25 games facing the most common meta decks (spider/elusive) almost all the time.
The reason why this deck worked so well for me is that people underestimate how quickly a lucian can escalate and how devestating a double attacker(lucian/senna) becomes with overwhelm (might). I think people are completely sleeping on lucian and that you should give it a try if you want to hunt these elusive/spider decks down
Quote: "C. crystal arrow should cost more, shouldn't draw an extra card (That's just gratuitous) and it shouldn't be created instantly in hand"
Ashe Creates the crystal arrow on top of your deck and therefore it is fine that it draws a card since it would otherwise replace your next draw entirely
I am still pissed that the change ruined my heimerdinger deck that was actually very good in to every matchup and literally saw 0 play by anyone but me.
Heimerdinger turrets would be a good target for the legacy but since they are 1 health they just don't really work with it anymore.
Also who said that they have to buff brood awakening when spiders were a core part of the meta already? Its so annoying to see riot streamlining the game (like they did with flash of briliance + lux) just to make it easier for them to balance that streamlined game.
It discourages to go offroad with your deckbuilding and just is what makes me quit cardgames when it reaches too huge levels.
I know about the deck but i think that iceborn legacy should not be as vulnerable to removal as it is now. If you don't run cheap protection spell and get it into your hand to respond, it always will be a big risk to cast the legacy.
The cardchange misses it's purpose to let the card find it's way into new decks.
All it does is to make the decks that use this card easier to counter what will cause the opposite
I DONT CARE ABOUT STREAMERS OPPINIONS OR THEIR DECKS I CAN THINK, PLAY BUILD DECKS AND EVALUATE GAMEPLAY SITUATIONS ON MY OWN AND I DO NOT TOLERATE IF ANYBODY ASSUMES THAT I JUST COPYPASTE SOME STREAMERS OPPINION AS MINE
PS: that last Statement just had to be to stress my standpoint
By drawing the right cards in time i talk about boardwipes that are needed to stop aggro, you eighter get them early or you get overun.
Also you got an completely strange idea of combo decks if you think that control beats combo (aka decks that knows ways to oneshot kill you if they get their combo assembled). Whoever told you that control is bad versus aggro can't have a clue of what he is talking about since control uses the most removal to stop aggro from doing it's thing.
So you say that you want lock down to be a thing in runeterra? Thanks for your honest degeneracy :)
Lemme give my 2 cents about the current state of control aswell guys:
While it is certainly not really possible to permanently control the game and lock it down completely it is not difficult to make decks that make it to turn 6/7 consistantly.
At that point you have to develop your wincondition so that cards that are 8 mana+ are not meant to played on regular basis and are properly powerfull in return
I dont know if you want to have a state of control like in mtg or hearthstone where you just spam value genegerators(like PWs), play denial(counterspells/discard) and cheap boardwipes in a deck, hope that you draw the fitting cards in time and call that a deck/game.
That should not become the concept in LoR because it is just a joykilling concept (to lock games down).
If we slow down the meta by buffing removal we will see more of the higher cost cards getting a problem which would need a lot of further adjustments what would take multiple patches aka multiple months of imbalance (that we just could avoid by not doing it)
I actually play the elixir already but it makes the card so much more clunky to play+ it still wont work against ionian will, deny and vengance and only is capable of blocking 1 damage removal which your opponent can have 2 of
I know most of you guys havent even heard of this card before and proably none of you heard of this card since the changes made to it.
What it does is that it gives a unit a buff permanently and gives the same buff to every copy on the board or created in the future.
In the latest patch riot decided that it was too rarely played and that doubling the effect (+2/+2 from +1/+1) for a higher cost would make the card more reasonable.
But as a compensation they nerfed it's speed from Burst to slow.
What was riot's problem with the card?
-It was very niche and therefore rarely played
- for them the card felt too unimpactful to justify playing it in a deck
Why will it always be a niche card?
The buff provided by the spell i quite small for it's cost (3 mana for +1+1 or 5 mana for 2+2+) so that if you affect only 1 unit by it its not good at all, affecting 2 units makes it okish but not good eighter and it starts getting really strong with 3 unit+ profiting from it's effect.
That makes it a exclusive card for token/ clone decks because you never will consistantly pull 3 copies of a minion anywhere else. (outside of 10 copy drafted expansion decks)
given that the majority of token decks use other ways to temporarily buff their tokens (because it is cheaper and higher tempo) and that you need to play around it, iceborn lagacyBADCARDNAME is easily skipped by most players
So why is the change so bad in my opinion?
Short: it didnt fix the niche situation of the card and made it even unattractive for decks using it
Long: The spell is usually used on token/cloned minions (like spiders) that are all low health and therefore are easy to remove.
Since the legacy is now a slow spell you run a huge risk that your spell gets cancelled by any type of creature removal or simply deny, destroying your deck's winconditon.
That scenario is very likely and COMPLETELY kills the card's and the deck's viability and will lead to even lower playrates of them.
It now is an card that is exclusively for expeditions and even there it will only be used to support decks that draft 10 copies of the same unit card (what should not be a thing in first place)
So lets revert the Changes or make it burst speed again (for 6 mana)
I used to play kata until i realized that she is really not good at all in a competetive environment:
she is a 3 mana: deal 3 damge to whatever blocks her/ to the opponent (what is just a slow play that is not mana efficient)
she then becomes a 4 mana:deal 4 damge to whatever blocks her/ to the opponent (what is not mana efficient) + an attack reset
the 1 time in 20 games where you get to play her 2 times a turn and race down you opponent is not worth putting her in your deck
At no point she helps you to develop your own board while she requires you winning on the board to work AND is easy to remove AND she is just a free feed when she is played against freljord
I totaly agree that they kinda deleted iceborn legacy what is really sad for me.
I was running frostborn legacy heimerdinger with all the crazy 3 mana burst spells that p&Z and Frejord have to create 20+ total power of drill turrets in 1 turn at burst speed (what is kinda the truest form of an otk).
Now i would get a rocket turret for casting it (which is not really usefull) and the spell very likely wont even resolve, making the card an unreasonable risk to run and just kills it's viability completely
NICE BUFF RIOT :)
Oh boy you seem to have no idea what Ezreal/Heimerdinger(+maybe ashe) decks are around there...
Saying that control didnt take over is something you only can say if you havent seen what P&Z+Freljord decks can do right now.
They go even early (with chumb blockers and removal), have the better midgame (with a bunch on medium sized units that contest for board control+ freezes) and often also outscale you lategame (with the gigantic value that heimer produces) or simply shoot you down in 1 turn with level'd ezreal
.... or they play leveld ashe freeze your board with winter's breath/her crystal arrow and kill you even if you have a full board
No matter what units you play (unless you play P&Z/Noxus all/burn in and race them down) they gonna find a way to win
I have to admit that the full aggro list ist hard to deal with but that is actually true for almost every deck in the game right now. Even control decks often get into the situation that they eighter have avalance in their starting hand or get overun.
While i see that this is what oppressive control deck like heimer+ ezreal decks cause, I also think that noxus/p&z's early game cards might need some adjustments since hardly a deck can acutally deal with the tempo that a 1-3 cost card deck (with not a single bad card) has.
cards that have in mind for that are:
legion saboteur (from 2/1 to 1/2)
Boomcrew rookie (from 1/4 to 1/3)
Brother's Bond (from permanent to until end of turn)
You are getting me wrong tho I AM playing Heimer Ezreal control myself and i would not play Darius Lucian in this meta at all.
I beat spider/elusive lists with ease and the only deck that i lose to is the exact same /more burnish list.
That way it seems to be tier 0 right now and beats even yasuo with ease since once yasuo is flipped... well he cant Attack while frostbitten right?
So i see the problem from the playing side not angry aggro player perspective and dont want to see just 1 matchup in ladder
i know that might sound weird to many of you but since the nerfs to elusives and SI in general we got to a point where aggro decks hardly ever win a game against Ezreal/heimerdinger control decks that are using frostbite.
Right now the whole ladder that i experience consists of ezreal decks and its not likely to change anytime soon.
The fact that frostbite makes it way too easy to shut down the board while a transformed ezreal is basically a game over if you aren't out of cards -what is not likely at all- breaks the philosophy of legends of runeterra that the board matters and that creatures are the way to go to win.
What can we do to fix that problem? I think the best way is to change the frostbite mechanic.
My version would be: frostbitten units deal their damage after the enemies fighting with them ( basically give them slow attack) and lose elusive until the end of the turn instead of reducing the current attack to 0.
It might not look like a big deal but it forces frostbite decks to run more creatures and not play 20 frostbite cards + 6 winconditons and removal for the rest.
Maybe you have a different point of view but thats what i experience on high diamond right now
https://outof.cards/legends-of-runeterra/decks/424-lucians-relentless-pursuit
That is the list that brought me from gold 4 to plat 4 in just 25 games facing the most common meta decks (spider/elusive) almost all the time.
The reason why this deck worked so well for me is that people underestimate how quickly a lucian can escalate and how devestating a double attacker(lucian/senna) becomes with overwhelm (might). I think people are completely sleeping on lucian and that you should give it a try if you want to hunt these elusive/spider decks down