Swing Cards

Submitted 4 years, 10 months ago by

Hi all! I'm Scarlet, and I tend to make a lot of custom cards, so I put some into a new video of mine to discuss and talk about them. I'd really appreciate any and all criticisms and feedback possible! 

Thank you!

  • Scarletspartan's Avatar
    120 11 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

    Hi all! I'm Scarlet, and I tend to make a lot of custom cards, so I put some into a new video of mine to discuss and talk about them. I'd really appreciate any and all criticisms and feedback possible! 

    Thank you!

    2
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

    My main criticism would be that I think your definition of "swing card" is overly broad and as a result most of these cards aren't very swingy. The way I would define the term is a card that capitalises on the opponent being ahead (on board, in resources) and turns that advantage around (or at least evens it). Very obvious examples would be Unleash the Hounds, Divine Favour or Brawl, all of which easily set up an uneven exchange for the two players. Less obvious examples would be Thunderhead or Unleash the Beast, both of which you really want to play into a board so you can capitalise on the rush mechanic to reverse the roles and put *you* ahead on board.

     

    Disregarding the swing theme for a moment, I think most of these cards are too underpowered, with the exception of Smoke Bomb which will never ever see print because it has the exact same problems as Conceal, which was hall-of-famed for its sins. The card is too good at setting up Auctioneer turns and lethals without providing the opponent reasonable counterplay options.

     

    The Ram is solid but it's battlecry will hardly ever be relevant. If/when you ever empty your hand, will you really be concerned about +1 attack on your 2/2 minion? The reason Quick Shot was played and Core Rager was not is that drawing a card is more relevant than ever when your hand is empty, and direct damage is the thing you want to be doing as a hunter in topdeck mode, not developing minions or trading the board. It the ram had battlecry: gain charge if your hand is empty, at least you could topdeck it for an extra 2 face damage.

     

    Camouflage strikes me as too narrow a card to warrant maindeck inclusion, although it might be a good sideboard card in specialist against specifically OTK Paladin. A spellbender-like effect that can protect your board would probably fit better with what most Hunter decks are trying to do, which is establish an early board advantage and ride that out to victory.

     

    Dreadhound scamp isn't powerful enough IMO. Even if you hit it in your disco lock, you're summoning a free 1/2 instead of discarding it. If you compare it to past discard enablers -that rarely saw play mind you- like Clutchmother Zavas, Silverware Golem, Fist of Jaraxxus or High Priestess Jeklik, the payoff seems pitiful.

     

    I like the idea behind Rot and Decay but I think a more elegant & powerful way to word the card would be to give all your minions poisonous for one turn. This would be very strong, but still situational. You still need a board full of tokens/weenies, an enemy board of tall minions and the card itself to get value out of it.

     

    Finally, I don't see gutterspark working well in any sort of mage deck. A 5 mana holy smite is just awful, especially in the mage class which has an abundance of burn spells and generally lacks minions. If you ever get five of your own minions killed as a mage, are you really that excited about dealing two damage for zero mana?

     

    Overall I think you should take into consideration what the deck that would feature any of these cards is trying to accomplish: What is the overall game-plan? How does the proposed card enable that plan or thwart the opponent's counters to it?

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  • KingKuba's Avatar
    Forest 310 77 Posts Joined 05/29/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

    Are you going to make Custom Expansion review? That's a lot of entertaining content!

    1
  • Tox's Avatar
    235 42 Posts Joined 02/02/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

    This looks rather promising. Keep up the good work!

    Hello and welcome to the Tox Show!

    1
  • Scarletspartan's Avatar
    120 11 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

    Thank you! It means a ton!

    0
  • Scarletspartan's Avatar
    120 11 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From KingKuba

    Are you going to make Custom Expansion review? That's a lot of entertaining content!

    Thank you! I might make a custom expansion review! Although, I prefer to make my own cards

    0
  • Cocoduf's Avatar
    350 81 Posts Joined 05/28/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

    If you're ready for any criticism, why don't you respond to AliRadicali ? They took the time to make very good points just to get ignored and downvoted. Really not appealing for anyone else to start having a discussion with you.

    0
  • Scarletspartan's Avatar
    120 11 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From AliRadicali

    My main criticism would be that I think your definition of "swing card" is overly broad and as a result most of these cards aren't very swingy. The way I would define the term is a card that capitalises on the opponent being ahead (on board, in resources) and turns that advantage around (or at least evens it). Very obvious examples would be Unleash the Hounds, Divine Favour or Brawl, all of which easily set up an uneven exchange for the two players. Less obvious examples would be Thunderhead or Unleash the Beast, both of which you really want to play into a board so you can capitalise on the rush mechanic to reverse the roles and put *you* ahead on board.

     

    Disregarding the swing theme for a moment, I think most of these cards are too underpowered, with the exception of Smoke Bomb which will never ever see print because it has the exact same problems as Conceal, which was hall-of-famed for its sins. The card is too good at setting up Auctioneer turns and lethals without providing the opponent reasonable counterplay options.

     

    The Ram is solid but it's battlecry will hardly ever be relevant. If/when you ever empty your hand, will you really be concerned about +1 attack on your 2/2 minion? The reason Quick Shot was played and Core Rager was not is that drawing a card is more relevant than ever when your hand is empty, and direct damage is the thing you want to be doing as a hunter in topdeck mode, not developing minions or trading the board. It the ram had battlecry: gain charge if your hand is empty, at least you could topdeck it for an extra 2 face damage.

     

    Camouflage strikes me as too narrow a card to warrant maindeck inclusion, although it might be a good sideboard card in specialist against specifically OTK Paladin. A spellbender-like effect that can protect your board would probably fit better with what most Hunter decks are trying to do, which is establish an early board advantage and ride that out to victory.

     

    Dreadhound scamp isn't powerful enough IMO. Even if you hit it in your disco lock, you're summoning a free 1/2 instead of discarding it. If you compare it to past discard enablers -that rarely saw play mind you- like Clutchmother Zavas, Silverware Golem, Fist of Jaraxxus or High Priestess Jeklik, the payoff seems pitiful.

     

    I like the idea behind Rot and Decay but I think a more elegant & powerful way to word the card would be to give all your minions poisonous for one turn. This would be very strong, but still situational. You still need a board full of tokens/weenies, an enemy board of tall minions and the card itself to get value out of it.

     

    Finally, I don't see gutterspark working well in any sort of mage deck. A 5 mana holy smite is just awful, especially in the mage class which has an abundance of burn spells and generally lacks minions. If you ever get five of your own minions killed as a mage, are you really that excited about dealing two damage for zero mana?

     

    Overall I think you should take into consideration what the deck that would feature any of these cards is trying to accomplish: What is the overall game-plan? How does the proposed card enable that plan or thwart the opponent's counters to it?

    Hey friend!

    In further review, I totally agree with the idea of defining my cards. It is totally fair that I need to make a better definition. I will work on that in the future!

    I don't agree with your opinion of Smoke Bomb being powerful, but I do agree that perhaps Blizzard would not print it. However, Conceal was far stronger and probably will be than a Smoke Bomb. In my opinion, it probably would be safe to print, as stronger AoE effects and spells have been created as of recent.

    On the note of the Ram, I totally agree that the Battlecry is far less relevant in some situations. However, I thought it would be far healthier than Quick Shot. Even though many people do not have a problem with Quick Shot, many people do. I do think that with a card like Master's Call and even the Twinspell, Unleash the Beast, it would be a lot worse now than ever. I like the proposal of giving it Charge, but I do not believe the newer development/design team would give any card that ability again. (Though Mega-Windfury did resurface so who knows!!?) Perhaps the Ram would be good in the scenario of two aggro/midrange decks getting into topdeck mode in a meta without the efficient card draw we see in Mage/Hunter/Paladin today.

    As for Camouflage, I do agree that it is quite narrow. However, most Secrets are narrow (obviously some are not very narrow). Dart Trap only activates after your opponent's Hero Power goes, which doesn't always happen. Spellbender, as mentioned, is a narrow but similar card in the sense that something has to be targeted for it to activate. I also did not create it with intent to be an almighty piece, but one to give you a second chance and fill a theme that Hunter has been given with Stealth minions and Poison for a somewhat "Survival" theme. However, I absolutely agree with, and love, the idea of this being a card slotted in for Specialist format. A very nice thought that, to be honest, I did not consider. This is most likely a tech card if it ever were to be printed.

    I don't agree much with your opinion of Dreadhound Scamp. It is a reward for discard yes, but not an absolute smash on board if discarded. All your examples except for Silverware Golem are, in my opinion, totally correct in seeing play very rarely. However, upon release, Silverware Golem was seen in every single Zoo Warlock deck as two-of most of the time. Now that Doomguard has been shoved out, it is not as prominent. Many players though Silverware Golem was far too strong and oppressive (I being one of them if I'm being honest). But the main point of Dreadhound Scamp is to help Zoo flood the board primarily and sometimes be discard fodder if not accomplishing both at the same time.

    Rot and Decay is neat, isn't it? I, however, do not agree at all with the idea of giving your minions Poisonous with it. Poisonous is not really a keyword in Warlock's flavor or identity. Your idea of having Weenies and other tokens on board to maximize value is absolutely what I'm looking for here, and I totally agree. I find Poisonous to be majorly Rogue and Hunter in theme. Though your phrasing may be more elegant, it isn't text Blizzard hasn't done before and I personally don't think it would be befitting for Warlock to deal with Poisonous.

    For Gutterspark, I intended on making a card that would/could synergize with a lot of the newly added minion-focused Mage class cards such as Arugal or Conjurer's Calling (which even would kill your own minion sometimes!). It would most likely end up in some sort of stalling/grindy Malygos combo deck. Though it is flexible, as many minions die over the course of the game on both sides, meaning it could also be useful in triggering other effects such as Mana Cylcone, Mana Addict, Violet Teacher or even Arcane Giant or Flamewaker in Wild, which both see play in the most powerful Mage decks of that format.

    In conclusion I think you've made some very solid and valid points despite not seeing eye-to-eye. I 100% agree with the notion that in future videos I describe the plans/decks that these cards would fit in or be slotted into. Thank you so so much for the response and criticism. I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner. I've had to think about what to say and how to say it. I hope this doesn't make you feel attacked or shamed in any way. Thank you!

    - Scarlet

     

    1
  • Scarletspartan's Avatar
    120 11 Posts Joined 05/30/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From Cocoduf

    If you're ready for any criticism, why don't you respond to AliRadicali ? They took the time to make very good points just to get ignored and downvoted. Really not appealing for anyone else to start having a discussion with you.

    Hey!

    Sorry if I don't reply to everyone as fast as possible. I like to give equal feedback to their comments as no likes a "k"-like response. I'm absolutely on game with open discussions, as long as I log on and have time for it. I don't tend to log onto Outof.cards very often, but I do like to try to be a helpful member of the community!

    - Scarlet

    P.S. Ner'zhul is a sick profile pic!

    1
  • AliRadicali's Avatar
    465 713 Posts Joined 06/06/2019
    Posted 4 years, 10 months ago
    Quote From Scarletspartan

    I don't agree with your opinion of Smoke Bomb being powerful, but I do agree that perhaps Blizzard would not print it. However, Conceal was far stronger and probably will be than a Smoke Bomb. In my opinion, it probably would be safe to print, as stronger AoE effects and spells have been created as of recent.

     

     

    I think the card is arguably stronger than conceal. Sure, if you have a board, it's potentially weaker, but even back in the day conceal usually had one crucial minion that it was concealing, a giant Edwin or an Auctioneer typically, and any other minions were just a bonus. Having the card cost one less is a clear benefit if you're only interested in concealing the one minion, especially if it's an auctioneer. 

     

    Quote From Scarletspartan

    On the note of the Ram, I totally agree that the Battlecry is far less relevant in some situations. However, I thought it would be far healthier than Quick Shot. Even though many people do not have a problem with Quick Shot, many people do. I do think that with a card like Master's Call and even the Twinspell, Unleash the Beast, it would be a lot worse now than ever. I like the proposal of giving it Charge, but I do not believe the newer development/design team would give any card that ability again. (Though Mega-Windfury did resurface so who knows!!?) Perhaps the Ram would be good in the scenario of two aggro/midrange decks getting into topdeck mode in a meta without the efficient card draw we see in Mage/Hunter/Paladin today.

    I don't think Quick shot was unhealthy in terms of power level, at most it rewarded a playstyle that was not fun to play against and felt particularly bad to lose against (or with, for that matter).

    In that sense I don't disagree that rewarding players for dumping their hands and mindlessly going face is unfortunate design.

     

    Quote From Scarletspartan

    I don't agree much with your opinion of Dreadhound Scamp. It is a reward for discard yes, but not an absolute smash on board if discarded. All your examples except for Silverware Golem are, in my opinion, totally correct in seeing play very rarely. However, upon release, Silverware Golem was seen in every single Zoo Warlock deck as two-of most of the time. Now that Doomguard has been shoved out, it is not as prominent. Many players though Silverware Golem was far too strong and oppressive (I being one of them if I'm being honest). But the main point of Dreadhound Scamp is to help Zoo flood the board primarily and sometimes be discard fodder if not accomplishing both at the same time.

    Silverware Golem very briefly saw play in Disco Zoo after Kharazan was released(I should know, it was my only vaguely competitive deck at the time). IIRC that archetype died out completely when The Grand Tournament rotated out at the end of that year, costing the deck Tiny Knight of Evil and Fist of Jarraxxus. This despite the fact that Un'goro had quite a bit of support for the deck in clutchmother Zavas, Lakkari Felhound, Cruel Dinomancer and the warlock quest.

    To me, the lesson here, and with Jeklik, is that you need a critical mass of high-tempo cheaty discard synergies to make the disco-zoo worthwhile or just won't be better than the normal variety. My problem with the Scamp is purely power level. I think it'd have to be at least a 2/2 rush for 2 to even tempt someone toward discard zoo, especially considering the power creep we've experienced since kharazan. I think the only time you'd be happy to sacrifice a deck slot/card in hand for a free 1/2 is on turn one, and do you really want to soulfire face instead of just playing the damn thing?

    Remember, during KotFT we had zero mana 3/3s in Zoo as a reward for healing face.

     

    Quote From Scarletspartan

    Rot and Decay is neat, isn't it? I, however, do not agree at all with the idea of giving your minions Poisonous with it. Poisonous is not really a keyword in Warlock's flavor or identity. Your idea of having Weenies and other tokens on board to maximize value is absolutely what I'm looking for here, and I totally agree. I find Poisonous to be majorly Rogue and Hunter in theme. Though your phrasing may be more elegant, it isn't text Blizzard hasn't done before and I personally don't think it would be befitting for Warlock to deal with Poisonous.

     

    I hadn't really considered it from a thematic perspective, but even then I don't really agree. It may be the case that WL hasn't had class specific poisonous cards yet, but they exist in neutral and I think that it absolutely does fit in with the class thematically. Certainly more than, say, Druid, who have Loti now. I suppose you could have the card give *all* minions poisonous to make it more in line with Warlock's self-damaging nature but it would amount to the same thing in most cases: tiny tokens trading off big minions for an uneven exchange of resources.

    I think the card would just be too narrow, too situational if it only doubled the attack of minions against other minions, for one turn. Bloodlust and the like are played because they can push face damage. If you're going to make a card that encourages trading instead, I think it has to be pretty damn rewarding to be run over Grim Rally, which effectively permanently doubles attack and health for a 1/1 (and can go face).

     

     

    Quote From Scarletspartan

    For Gutterspark, I intended on making a card that would/could synergize with a lot of the newly added minion-focused Mage class cards such as Arugal or Conjurer's Calling (which even would kill your own minion sometimes!). It would most likely end up in some sort of stalling/grindy Malygos combo deck. Though it is flexible, as many minions die over the course of the game on both sides, meaning it could also be useful in triggering other effects such as Mana Cylcone, Mana Addict, Violet Teacher or even Arcane Giant or Flamewaker in Wild, which both see play in the most powerful Mage decks of that format.

    I'm going to have to continue to disagree on this one. Sure, a deck like conjurer mage does generate a bunch of stuff on board, and it likes to play a bunch of spells in one turn as well, but it usually plays the cheap spells before it summons the minions, and by the time you have five minions die, again, you're probably not that excited about 0 mana 2 damage, or even the free spell.

    That said, the other thing that makes me uncomfortable about the card is that if it were buffed to standard-playable stats, the potential for abuse would be huge, because mage, like rogue and priest, is class that can exploit cheap spells enormously, especially in wild. I suppose a case study could be made out of Volcanic Lumberer vs Corridor Creeper, whereby the latter's ability to store discounts made it far more powerful than the Lumberer. In this analogy, your card would be the Creeper to hearthstone's Dragon's Breath.

     

    Quote From Scarletspartan

    In conclusion I think you've made some very solid and valid points despite not seeing eye-to-eye. I 100% agree with the notion that in future videos I describe the plans/decks that these cards would fit in or be slotted into. Thank you so so much for the response and criticism. I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner. I've had to think about what to say and how to say it. I hope this doesn't make you feel attacked or shamed in any way. Thank you!

    - Scarlet

    It's all fine. What are message boards for if not disagreement and debate? If I couldn't handle criticism myself I wouldn't be handing it out to others. IMO an honest critique is a lot more helpful than insincere flattery.

     

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