If you deny them enough tempo or have enough tempo youself, the card does nothing and that is a concept of a card that is imo healthy but I also see how it is very polarized
I agree, but this is getting harder and harder to accomplish. Fighting tempo with tempo works sometimes but usually don't, the deck is very well optimized to make sure their units win trades.
While at the subject, does anyone else think Relentless Pursuit could use a small nerf? Maybe is just me, but i feel this card got really strong with all the scout and support support (lol) added to the game.
I also like trying to squeeze in Starshaping, but I don't see an obviously slot for it.
Interesting as both Zaunite Urchin and Spacey Sketcher were included in my 1.0 version, so we are in the same page. But after some playtest i realized the deck needs help to stall until Heimerdinger gets online, and both cards are not very good early plays, on top i was also struggling on what cards to discard.
Solari Soldier proven to be much better then expected. The true goal behind this card is NOT to play it on T1, but use him to block an attack from a key unit on later turns. For example, you hold him in your hand until something like Elise/ Kalista is played, then play him to prevent attacks for that turn.
i also tried Starshaping for a while, but dropped as i think its a bit too expensive and didn't need the extra healing.
The deck focus on keeping Heimerdinger alive with Bastion, then Turret Spam. It mostly wins because the opponent can't keep up with turrets, but the main focus is to buy time until Ezreal levels up. In very long games, Shards of the Mountain generates enough Gem cards for an OTK. Hush works very well alongside both champions.
I am experimenting a great deal of sucess in my ranked games, so I think the deck is very well optimized already, but maybe someone could catch some improvement.
But control should be able to beat decks by disrupting their strategies
I have mixed feelings about this statement.
In one hand, i agree this is the core concept of what pure control decks are trying to do. If you watch the video linked bellow my signature, you will see i play a priest deck that has no treats or win conditions, only disruption and value generation cards. The entire plan of my deck is to disrupt the opponent's strategy until they run out of resources.
In the other hand, pure control decks usually takes over 15 turns or even deck out to finish games so companies decided matches in the modern era should not take longer then an average of "X" time. To acomplish that, they implemented finisher cards, OTK, combo strategies all with powerfull effects that are very hard to disrupt. For example, how do you even disrupt a Warmother's Call deck? Unless you are playing Ionia with Deny, you just can't interact with it.
If you don't believe me, i challenge you to come up with a theoretical deck that doesn't use a single finisher and relies only on disruptions cards in today's meta. I don't think its going to work. Every deck should be build around cards that optimize its own win condition first and foremost. Disruption cards are added later to replace prior choices when needed, in order to increase the winrate agaisnt whats being played in the current meta. Those disruption cards may not even be needed agaisnt a particular meta, and certainly are not exclusively played in control decks only. Even agro decks can play the disruption game and tech in control cards agaisnt very specific matchups. Secret Eater and Counter Spell are very good examples of disruption cards that were played in both aggro and OTK decks.
Dont get me wrong, i don't think your definition is bad or even wrong, just think isn't right either.
I've never seen anything stronger in any card game(single card combo) than an Aurelion Sol leveled up with you having the 10 mana celestial spell. I think he's fair though since getting him to level up means you are most likely winning already.
Nice observation! Single card combo i indeed can't think in anything. Closest was Yogg i guess. Your post also got me thinking about some nasty 2 card combos from the past... This was a disgusting one i remember from MTG. 2 useless cards alone but when combined are utterly broken:
So, I think it achieves that warping effect the same way Caverns Below Rogue did, where fast decks can win pretty easily but other control decks struggle to make headway against it. @Hellcopter, I think you're using "late game deck" and "control deck" interchangeably in your original post, but several of the decks you've listed are not control decks - many are combo decks that seek to win with huge burst through Ezreal or Atrocity, and the Ensure Spiders deck is really more of an aggro deck that uses Atrocity as a finisher. The control decks you've actually got on there are the Purrsuit, Anivia, and Maokai decks. Of those, the only one with a chance against ASol is Maokai, and only if they get their win condition off early enough to toss the enemy ASols before they have a chance to come down. With ramp and Thresh driving early Aurelion Sol plays, I think that's unlikely to happen consistently.
Valid point. We can talk about the definition of what a "control" deck is to see if we are in the same page. I came from an era where control decks didn't have win conditions, so my definition of control comes literally from keeping the board under control, caring about efficient trades and then waiting until the oponnent runs out of resources. In modern card games, most decks have some kind of win condition, so trying to win by the old way is not a good plan anymore. I also believe combo and control are NOT mutually exclusive. A combo/OTK deck can also be a control deck. Freeze Mage is a deck that doesn't care about board state, so its not a control deck, while Shadow Reaper Anduim OTK does.
But what i am really want to talk is the fact i don't see why so many people think A.Sol is opressive. My point with this topic was to show A.Sol win condition is on par with other decks win conditions. It seems to me people are focusing way too hard on the strenght of A.Sol level up effect. But is it that different from a board full of AniviasBADCARDNAME? Or when Warmother's Call gets online? Or even when The Harrowing summons a bunch of Hecarim?
I played many games against A.sol, with all of my decks, even the meme ones, and i never felt hopless. Does anyone have numbers if A.Sol is stomping other control decks? It sure doesn't feel that way to me.
I think that the problem with Aurelion Sol is that he is so easy to level and the cards that you use before AurelionBADCARDNAME Sol are very good and synergistic. These cards would be like Infinite MindsplitterBADCARDNAME, Trundle, Starshaping, Icequake, etc. If you're fighting a slow deck then you are most likely going to win as Aurelion Sol is quite hard to beat early on when the opponent still has like 8 Mana (maybe with 2-3 spell Mana banked.) and even if you don't have Aurelion Sol here, you could have Wyrding Stones to Trundle or Icequake on turn 4 and that shuts down some decks entirely.
True. Its a fair point, but i would like to know why you believe other slow decks can't beat A.Sol in the late game.
Quote From FenrirWulf
I remember Meisterz once said that this Ramp Asol deck is very akin to Quest Rogue in Hearthstone and I couldn't agree less. It's a deck that if you are moderately faster than them, you have quite a good chance to win as long as they don't draw an insane hand. The decks that Hellcopter listed as the slow control decks all loses to this Ramp Asol deck for the same reason that these decks just lose because they can't deal with threat after threat after threat without losing resources and being burnt out in the end to a random big Celestial. Because it's not like RuinationBADCARDNAME beats Asol, it's RuinationBADCARDNAME + cheap spell that does.
The part comparing Quest rogue with A.sol is extremely unfair. I am getting it wrong or are you guys advocating that A.sol is opressing the meta in the same way Quest rogue did? Because thats not true at all... if so, we need to talk about that.
You seem to forget that Aurelion Sol is not always played on T10.
Freljord offers ramp and other decks pull him out with Thresh and keeps reviving him after that.
He can be played on t6-t10.
Taking your example, one could argue Tryndamere will do much more work then Aurelion Sol ever would because Aurelion doesn't have Overwhelm and also Tryndamere is much harder to remove. And even if Aurelion Sol was cheated / played early, if he can level up before T10, then chances are you already lost the game anyway.
It seems Aurelion Sol became a hot topic of discussion, so i am going to try my best to break down this card being as impartial as possible. Take your own conclusions if the card looks fair or not at the end.
Lore:Aurelion Sol is one of the Gods who created the Runeterra universe.
Since Aurelion Sol is suposed to be the strongest champion of them all, from a design perspective, is very fitting that his mana cost is set at the highest price possible: 10 mana.
But for a 10 mana cost to see play in any card game, it also requires to have an extremely strong effect. Here goes a list with a few examples of traits hight costs cards own in other games: 1- Deals high ammounts of direct damage; -> King Crush (Hearthstone) 2- Affetcs the board on the same turn its played -> Shadow Reaper Anduim (Hearthstone) 3- Setup an One Turn Kill combo; -> Antonidas (Hearthstone) 4- Very hard to remove; -> Ultimate Falcon (Yu-gi-Oh!) 5- Generate infinite resource overtime; -> Deathstalker Rexxar (Hearthstone) 6- Snowball overtime (wins by himself if left unchecked); -> Ragnaros(Hearthstone) 7- Denny oponnents resources; -> Jynzo (Yu-gi-Oh!) 8- Protect the player from loss/taking damage/heal; -> Malganis (Hearthstone)
Aurelion Sol is a Boss card, and as such, given he has the highest mana cost price possible for a unit, he is supossed to pack the ultimate bomb effect to win games. He needs to have an even stronger effect then Commander Ledros as he costs more mana and uses a champion slot. But is Aurelion Sol unfair? To answer that, we need to look at how other Late game decks are doing.
This is a picture of my meme Purssuit deck. It usually finish games in a single big hit by T9-T12.
Show Spoiler
This is They Who Endure before nerf. It usually finish games by T7-T10.
Show Spoiler
Maokai decks can pull their win condition by T7-T8. That means the oponnent gets 4 more turns as most players can't refill their deck. It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Ezreal / Karma is an OTK deck. It requires Karma to be enlightned to pull off the combo, followed by Ezreal + spells on the next turn. It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Anivia needs to be enlightned to proc her egg and level up, plus an additional turn to generate more Anivia copies. It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Commander Ledros is played on T9 and Atrocity on T10. If Ledros is killed the combo takes longer. It usually finish games by T10-T12.
Are we seeing a pattern here? Most control decks usually end games around T10-T12. Now lets examinate Aurelion Sol:
Aurelion Sol is played on T10 and if his conditions are met, he levels up after THE END OF THE TURN. So best case possible, the player may only play Celestials cards for free on T11 forward. It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Conclusion: I hope my work here can provide a better insight about Aurelion Sol's design for future reference. I personally think Aurelion Sol is fair and on par with other control decks that see play on the current meta.
Little extra -> How to play around Aurelion Sol: Play cheap spells on him to pop his spell shield and follow with a major removal, both with fast speed if possible to prevent counter plays. Another way is to ignore Aurelion Sol completely and focus to kill other units to deny his Level up in the end of the turn. Aurelion Sol by himself is "only" a 10/10 body do nothing with Fury which isn't worth its cost.
So mobalytics has finally gotten solid meta rankings for the call of the mountain meta.
I think i said it a thousand times already but Mobalytics isn't exactly a reliable source of information.
Facts i know for sure: 1- They are again missing a top S tier deck: Vi/Ezreal. Some players at Top 10 Master rank have 60%+ winrate with it. 2- Deep monsters is very good against Aurelion Sol decks but very weak versus almost every agro deck in the meta (and there are plenty). So its ranked way higher then it should be. 3- Overwhelm Taric is stronger then many decks in that list but didn't make it for some reason. 4- The only thing holding Endure back is Hush. If Targon is not massively present at top tier spots, then Endure should also be a S tier deck.
I feel decks that are good but not very popular doen't even have a chance to show up on their radar.
Oh boy, did i get it wrong or people here are asking for Skinner Boxes?
I mean, sure, an extra incentive reward would be nice, but isn't the challenge itself just good enough? When i play other single player video games, i always set the dificulty to the hardest (with a few exceptions) because i find the challenge fun. But that doesn't mean you and me can't also have fun on easy mode. Like i said in my previous post: ladder is suposed to be challenging and not necessarily everyone will find it enjoyable.
Now just imagine what would happen if they gave away an amazing cosmetic reward for each ladder rank. I believe a lot of people like OP who just want to have some fun would find themselves forced to play a game mode they don't enjoy just for the reward. That would be a stupid design if you ask me.
Its very obvious to me you have no clue how balance works.
Well, i presented one way to analyze it, which i can attest it also works for many other card games. In a basic level, that is the main concept i use when selecting what cards are strong enough to be on my competitive deck over other similar options.
Now it seems to me you ignored most of my post and are now trying to push your own concepts and view of how this game should work until proven wrong, which is a game i won't play. I was genuinely trying to help you get a better grip on how to measure cards right, but whatever works for you my dude.
I agree, but this is getting harder and harder to accomplish. Fighting tempo with tempo works sometimes but usually don't, the deck is very well optimized to make sure their units win trades.
While at the subject, does anyone else think Relentless Pursuit could use a small nerf?
Maybe is just me, but i feel this card got really strong with all the scout and support support (lol) added to the game.
Are you talking about ranked or normal play?
Because at normal play, i see so many different decks to the point is very hard to point out a particular trend.
Clap Clap Op, great post, 100% agree
As a guy who played Ezreal a lot, i can safely say Ezreal is dead now.
No one plays WarchefBADCARDNAME for his attack value. Yes, i know this means less optimal trades but kind of strange nerf.
Yordle Grifter is VERY risky now and not an instant auto include.
They realized Flash of Brilliance is not a problem anymore after Heimerdinger Elusive turret switch from mana 3 -> 6
Interesting as both Zaunite Urchin and Spacey Sketcher were included in my 1.0 version, so we are in the same page.
But after some playtest i realized the deck needs help to stall until Heimerdinger gets online, and both cards are not very good early plays, on top i was also struggling on what cards to discard.
Solari Soldier proven to be much better then expected. The true goal behind this card is NOT to play it on T1, but use him to block an attack from a key unit on later turns. For example, you hold him in your hand until something like Elise/ Kalista is played, then play him to prevent attacks for that turn.
i also tried Starshaping for a while, but dropped as i think its a bit too expensive and didn't need the extra healing.
This is the third deck i am about to push into the meta: Heimerdinger / Ezreal / OTK
The deck focus on keeping Heimerdinger alive with Bastion, then Turret Spam.
It mostly wins because the opponent can't keep up with turrets, but the main focus is to buy time until Ezreal levels up.
In very long games, Shards of the Mountain generates enough Gem cards for an OTK.
Hush works very well alongside both champions.
I am experimenting a great deal of sucess in my ranked games, so I think the deck is very well optimized already, but maybe someone could catch some improvement.
The flex slots are:
3x Jury-Rig
3x Solari Soldier
3x Guiding Touch
1x Hush
I don't think anything else is replaceable.
Thoughts?
I have mixed feelings about this statement.
In one hand, i agree this is the core concept of what pure control decks are trying to do. If you watch the video linked bellow my signature, you will see i play a priest deck that has no treats or win conditions, only disruption and value generation cards. The entire plan of my deck is to disrupt the opponent's strategy until they run out of resources.
In the other hand, pure control decks usually takes over 15 turns or even deck out to finish games so companies decided matches in the modern era should not take longer then an average of "X" time. To acomplish that, they implemented finisher cards, OTK, combo strategies all with powerfull effects that are very hard to disrupt. For example, how do you even disrupt a Warmother's Call deck? Unless you are playing Ionia with Deny, you just can't interact with it.
If you don't believe me, i challenge you to come up with a theoretical deck that doesn't use a single finisher and relies only on disruptions cards in today's meta. I don't think its going to work. Every deck should be build around cards that optimize its own win condition first and foremost. Disruption cards are added later to replace prior choices when needed, in order to increase the winrate agaisnt whats being played in the current meta. Those disruption cards may not even be needed agaisnt a particular meta, and certainly are not exclusively played in control decks only. Even agro decks can play the disruption game and tech in control cards agaisnt very specific matchups. Secret Eater and Counter Spell are very good examples of disruption cards that were played in both aggro and OTK decks.
Dont get me wrong, i don't think your definition is bad or even wrong, just think isn't right either.
Level Up: Press R and Obliterate the target enemy champion :D
+1 Void, and while at it, they could also print my favorite buddie Veigar :D
Nice observation! Single card combo i indeed can't think in anything. Closest was Yogg i guess.
Your post also got me thinking about some nasty 2 card combos from the past...
This was a disgusting one i remember from MTG. 2 useless cards alone but when combined are utterly broken:
Valid point. We can talk about the definition of what a "control" deck is to see if we are in the same page.
I came from an era where control decks didn't have win conditions, so my definition of control comes literally from keeping the board under control, caring about efficient trades and then waiting until the oponnent runs out of resources. In modern card games, most decks have some kind of win condition, so trying to win by the old way is not a good plan anymore.
I also believe combo and control are NOT mutually exclusive. A combo/OTK deck can also be a control deck. Freeze Mage is a deck that doesn't care about board state, so its not a control deck, while Shadow Reaper Anduim OTK does.
But what i am really want to talk is the fact i don't see why so many people think A.Sol is opressive.
My point with this topic was to show A.Sol win condition is on par with other decks win conditions.
It seems to me people are focusing way too hard on the strenght of A.Sol level up effect. But is it that different from a board full of AniviasBADCARDNAME? Or when Warmother's Call gets online? Or even when The Harrowing summons a bunch of Hecarim?
I played many games against A.sol, with all of my decks, even the meme ones, and i never felt hopless.
Does anyone have numbers if A.Sol is stomping other control decks? It sure doesn't feel that way to me.
Really nice discussion guys, even i learned a few things, thanks
True. Its a fair point, but i would like to know why you believe other slow decks can't beat A.Sol in the late game.
The part comparing Quest rogue with A.sol is extremely unfair.
I am getting it wrong or are you guys advocating that A.sol is opressing the meta in the same way Quest rogue did?
Because thats not true at all... if so, we need to talk about that.
Taking your example, one could argue Tryndamere will do much more work then Aurelion Sol ever would because Aurelion doesn't have Overwhelm and also Tryndamere is much harder to remove.
And even if Aurelion Sol was cheated / played early, if he can level up before T10, then chances are you already lost the game anyway.
It seems Aurelion Sol became a hot topic of discussion, so i am going to try my best to break down this card being as impartial as possible.
Take your own conclusions if the card looks fair or not at the end.
Lore: Aurelion Sol is one of the Gods who created the Runeterra universe.
Since Aurelion Sol is suposed to be the strongest champion of them all, from a design perspective, is very fitting that his mana cost is set at the highest price possible: 10 mana.
But for a 10 mana cost to see play in any card game, it also requires to have an extremely strong effect.
Here goes a list with a few examples of traits hight costs cards own in other games:
1- Deals high ammounts of direct damage; -> King Crush (Hearthstone)
2- Affetcs the board on the same turn its played -> Shadow Reaper Anduim (Hearthstone)
3- Setup an One Turn Kill combo; -> Antonidas (Hearthstone)
4- Very hard to remove; -> Ultimate Falcon (Yu-gi-Oh!)
5- Generate infinite resource overtime; -> Deathstalker Rexxar (Hearthstone)
6- Snowball overtime (wins by himself if left unchecked); -> Ragnaros(Hearthstone)
7- Denny oponnents resources; -> Jynzo (Yu-gi-Oh!)
8- Protect the player from loss/taking damage/heal; -> Malganis (Hearthstone)
Aurelion Sol is a Boss card, and as such, given he has the highest mana cost price possible for a unit, he is supossed to pack the ultimate bomb effect to win games. He needs to have an even stronger effect then Commander Ledros as he costs more mana and uses a champion slot.
But is Aurelion Sol unfair? To answer that, we need to look at how other Late game decks are doing.
This is a picture of my meme Purssuit deck.
It usually finish games in a single big hit by T9-T12.
This is They Who Endure before nerf.
It usually finish games by T7-T10.
Maokai decks can pull their win condition by T7-T8. That means the oponnent gets 4 more turns as most players can't refill their deck.
It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Ezreal / Karma is an OTK deck. It requires Karma to be enlightned to pull off the combo, followed by Ezreal + spells on the next turn.
It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Anivia needs to be enlightned to proc her egg and level up, plus an additional turn to generate more Anivia copies.
It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Commander Ledros is played on T9 and Atrocity on T10. If Ledros is killed the combo takes longer.
It usually finish games by T10-T12.
Are we seeing a pattern here? Most control decks usually end games around T10-T12. Now lets examinate Aurelion Sol:
Aurelion Sol is played on T10 and if his conditions are met, he levels up after THE END OF THE TURN. So best case possible, the player may only play Celestials cards for free on T11 forward. It usually finish games by T11-T12.
Conclusion: I hope my work here can provide a better insight about Aurelion Sol's design for future reference.
I personally think Aurelion Sol is fair and on par with other control decks that see play on the current meta.
Little extra -> How to play around Aurelion Sol:
Play cheap spells on him to pop his spell shield and follow with a major removal, both with fast speed if possible to prevent counter plays. Another way is to ignore Aurelion Sol completely and focus to kill other units to deny his Level up in the end of the turn. Aurelion Sol by himself is "only" a 10/10 body do nothing with Fury which isn't worth its cost.
I think i said it a thousand times already but Mobalytics isn't exactly a reliable source of information.
Facts i know for sure:
1- They are again missing a top S tier deck: Vi/Ezreal. Some players at Top 10 Master rank have 60%+ winrate with it.
2- Deep monsters is very good against Aurelion Sol decks but very weak versus almost every agro deck in the meta (and there are plenty). So its ranked way higher then it should be.
3- Overwhelm Taric is stronger then many decks in that list but didn't make it for some reason.
4- The only thing holding Endure back is Hush. If Targon is not massively present at top tier spots, then Endure should also be a S tier deck.
I feel decks that are good but not very popular doen't even have a chance to show up on their radar.
Oh boy, did i get it wrong or people here are asking for Skinner Boxes?
I mean, sure, an extra incentive reward would be nice, but isn't the challenge itself just good enough?
When i play other single player video games, i always set the dificulty to the hardest (with a few exceptions) because i find the challenge fun. But that doesn't mean you and me can't also have fun on easy mode.
Like i said in my previous post: ladder is suposed to be challenging and not necessarily everyone will find it enjoyable.
Now just imagine what would happen if they gave away an amazing cosmetic reward for each ladder rank. I believe a lot of people like OP who just want to have some fun would find themselves forced to play a game mode they don't enjoy just for the reward. That would be a stupid design if you ask me.
For me, the real reward is too see how far i can go, but yeah, some extra comestics would not hurt ;)
Its very obvious to me you have no clue how balance works.
Well, i presented one way to analyze it, which i can attest it also works for many other card games.
In a basic level, that is the main concept i use when selecting what cards are strong enough to be on my competitive deck over other similar options.
Now it seems to me you ignored most of my post and are now trying to push your own concepts and view of how this game should work until proven wrong, which is a game i won't play.
I was genuinely trying to help you get a better grip on how to measure cards right, but whatever works for you my dude.